Towards a United Ireland

Iwasfrozen

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Tough shit tbh

lol you show your true colours here. Do all nationalists feel the same?

marienbad

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Doesn't deserve a considered reply. Anyway - we're talking about the future and the future doesn't belong to 'no nay nevers'. Ask Ian Paisley.

Is that what you say to anyone that does'nt agree with you ?

Chuck Stone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

lol you show your true colours here.

My true colours are there for all to see. Unification is inevitable imo. We're only discussing the how not the when. I don't want to force a UI but I believe it will happen one way or another.

Do all nationalists feel the same?

I don't know.

LordSutch

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Think about it. From a purely practical and geopolitical POV it is not good to have a foreign power have a foothold on your island.

Agreed, and if one did gain a foothold you could be damned sure the British army & the IDF would evict them from this island straight away.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Ireland having a strong defence force is a total joke while we have no control over all the territory and ports on the island.

In which case maybe the British army would be more suited to protecting the whole island from foreign invaders?

pablomakaveli

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You're an army person aren't you? Think about it. From a purely practical and geopolitical POV it is not good to have a foreign power have a foothold on your island. Ireland having a strong defence force is a total joke while we have no control over all the territory and ports on the island. Political borders are not natural. Islands and seas are natural borders.

It is when that power is hostile and wants to take over the rest of the island. The UK doesnt have any intention in doing so. Also the DF will never be a strong force regardless of the border. There is neither the necessity nor finance for one. Which would make the potential violence of a UI even more dangerous when we have a DF that isnt large enough to handle it.

Tough shit tbh.

Great attitude there. For all the republicans saying the Unionist community would be made welcome and treated equally this probably sums up the real attitude. Also telling them "tough ****" wont stop them from kicking off if they're put in that situation.

The Nationalist community weren't agitating for a UI back in the day. The Nationalist people of the north learned the hard way that the seeking of equality (not a UI) was a blood soaked endeavour that was frustrated with the backing of the foreign power.

We're not talking about "back in the day" we're talking about now and the future. Again why can they not be convinced to live withing the modern UK?

Iwasfrozen

Chuck Stone wrote: »

My true colours are there for all to see. Unification is inevitable imo. We're only discussing the how not the when. I don't want to force a UI but I believe it will happen one way or another.

I wouldn't say it's inevitable at all the nationalist population is falling quickly.

Chuck Stone

LordSutch wrote: »

Agreed, and if one did gain a foothold you could be damned sure the British army & the IDF would evict them from this island straight away.

What is this war comic fantasy I see before me? The only possible threat to Irish sovereignty is the British.

In which case the British army would be more than willing to protect the whole island from any foreign invader.

More fantasy. Who's going to invade Ireland? The only strategic interest in Ireland comes from London and that's pretty much redundant since the ICBM.

Chuck Stone

marienbad wrote: »

Is that what you say to anyone that does'nt agree with you ?

Nope. I only say it when I think there really is no point. If I didn't think there was a point in replying to people with different opinions I wouldn't be in this thread at all.

marienbad

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Nope. I only say it when I think there really is no point. If I didn't think there was a point in replying to people with different opinions I wouldn't be in this thread at all.

The points raised by that particular poster are fundamental to this discussion , and to just dismiss them in such an offhand manner is just bizarre.

And unless you address those economic issues all the rest is just aspirational waffle. A good case in point is SF in the republic, even allowing for the innate conservatism of the electorate ( or possibly because of it ?) the progress they have made in what you would think is such favourable conditions is laughable.

And why ? Because they are perceived as economic basket cases.

Chuck Stone

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Great attitude there. For all the republicans saying the Unionist community would be made welcome and treated equally this probably sums up the real attitude. Also telling them "tough ****" wont stop them from kicking off if they're put in that situation.

Look at my first post in the thread. I don't believe there is any point in trying to coax Unionists into a UI with carrot cake. It won't happen with the backing of Unionists so, really, what is the point in trying to sell it to them? It will happen when the majority in the north decide - that's how it has been laid out in the GFA.

Now don't get me wrong - I want Unionists' freedom to be unionist guaranteed in the event of a UI. Let them have their flags and marches, no, let's enshrine it in our constitution. They have as much right to express themselves on the island as anyone else does.

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

lol England ceding territory and money? Keep dreaming.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's in our interest to dump NI but since there are people like you who want to destabilise the country I'm partial to the belief there are illogical people out there. The British are a proud people with a proud history they'll dump NI all right but there will be no golden handshake.

Hopefully we are smart enough to keep Britain's problem in Britain and not get involved.

This is the kind of hookum that should be kept well away from any self respecting politics forrum.
'The British are a proud people.....'????
What does that even mean? They wear Union Jack underpants on holidays?
The British will act in their own interest, as they always do and always have done. They left almost every colony they where in, in a mess when they withdrew. Look at the real story of the Falklands and see what they where considering doing before Maggie seen it as an ideal re-election PR excercise.
It is our responsibility to make sure that they don't 'proudly' withdraw and leave another mess behind them and the first part of that job is to let partitionists (and those with their heads in some mythical sand hole) know that their opinions are illinformed, lazy and more to the point, lethally dangerous. 40 years of death and destruction while they looked idly on from the high moral ground at the British behaving 'proudly'. (only in Ireland would you hear that tosh!)

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Why is it when we have NI as part of the UK there can't be peace yet when its part of a UI there will be peace?

If there is a UI then the Unionists take the Nationalists place as the minority in a country they want no part of. Republicans keep saying they can be convinced but why cant the Nationalist community not be persuaded to live within the UK?

Again, you are not looking at the big picture here, the IRA survived because it had the South to operate from and to support it, violent loyalism would wither on the vine because it wouldn't have that support. They simply wouldn't be able to sustain a campaign, because it would be in the British 'interest' to subdue them and thus ensure the success of a UI. A combination of British and Irish intelligence gathering and security would be a safeguard to the transition. And Loyalism knows that, only too well.

Bertie Woot

An Coilean wrote: »

Well there is the fact that NI would have a much bigger voice in the Dáil than it has now in Westminster.
NI is only a dot on the map in terms of Westminster politics, in the Dáil it would have a much greater influence in guiding policy for its future at a national level.

NI constitutes something like 2% of the UK and with a tiny minority presence in Westminster which is almost exclusively Unionist, with Sinn Fein continuing to refuse to take their seats. In a reunified Ireland Unionists would constitute approximately 20% of the Irish populace, and can consequently expect to receive a much larger political representation in an all Ireland government which they could work to the socioeconomic advantage of all of the 32 counties, not just six.

Sometimes it doesn't seem like it, but there is brains within Unionism; an all Ireland political arrangement can incorporate and accommodate Unionism as an asset, not a liability.

Zombrex wrote: »

The problems NI are facing are very unique, systemic and long term focused. They are also very different to the problems Ireland face from an economic view. There is no reason to believe that any government of Ireland, with the focus on the entire island, will do any better at tackling the long term issues of NI.

In a reunified Ireland "Northern Ireland" shall cease to exist. We currently have two countries, two states and two sets of governmental and socioeconomic infrastructure on this island, and the Northern Irish one is not, never has been, and never shall be economically viable, with it being dependent on the Barnett Formula and Westminster subsidy. Successive British governments post partition have effectively bankrolled the Northern Irish project, keeping it on life support. We are unsustainable if we became independent from the UK and did not unify with the 26 counties.

A one country, one state, one set of infrastructure arrangement would initially cost in terms of adjustment and realignment, but in the long term it would pay off both economically and socially, if both Republicans and Unionists collaborate and make a conscious effort to make a 32 county Irish Republic work for all Irish people.

NI priority should be as much local government as they can get and tackling the real economic issues they face with specific tailored solutions, not pipe dreams about how wonderful everything will suddenly becomes if they can just swap one foreign parliament that doesn't understand them for another.

If a referendum in the North achieves a majority in favour of reunification, NI shall unify with the 26 counties, as that shall be the democratic wish of the people of NI. If I'm not mistaken, there is no obligation on the ROI to call referendum on unity, so unity shall take place on the basis of a decision taken in the North and ratified at Westminster. Regardless of whether the South understand us or even wants us or not, we are your future partners in a 32 county independent Republic with national self determination should the majority in the six counties decide to opt for reunification any time in the future.

It is funny how many people talk about the people of NI, but then want to sell them out in the name of ideology and neat maps.

Does this map of Ireland look right to you?:



If you were a foreign visitor to these shores would you not question partition and the presence of a border? I've come to the conclusion that the border is no longer necessary. Regardless of ideology, when you drive across the border into the ROI there are no checkpoints, no searches, no Gardai, no sniffer dogs having a poke around in your vehicle. The border might as well not be there, and the only reason it has been for the past 92 years is because tenacious Unionists in 1921 offered resistance and war if Ireland was granted full independence. I do not believe in partition in 2013, feel that it has run its course, and it shall end with sufficient numbers of Unionists embracing selflessness and finally doing the right thing for Ireland, not themselves.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What ever about pools and eyes we need to give up on this unification idea, we have a good thing going on both sides of the border don't muck that up, the safety of our own people must come first.

Please spell out these "good things". Economic meltdown in the ROI and NI dependent on London for its economic survival and constantly teetering on the brink of a return to violence with every dissident Republican attack? And who is your "own people"? Just the people of the South, and not those in the North?

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Au contraire Rodders. We need to give up on this partition business. We need to separate this island from the neighbouring one. We'll never have true peace and security while we have a foreign power in control of a part of the body of this island.

The nail has been hit on the head.

LordSutch

Chuck Stone wrote: »

What is this war comic fantasy I see before me? The only possible threat to Irish sovereignty is the British.

No war comic fantasy at all Sir, I just can't see the UK authorities wanting to expand beyond their borders,
no reason at all to encraoch on Irish sovereignty . . .

pablomakaveli

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Look at my first post in the thread. I don't believe there is any point in trying to coax Unionists into a UI with carrot cake. It won't happen with the backing of Unionists so, really, what is the point in trying to sell it to them? It will happen when the majority in the north decide - that's how it has been laid out in the GFA.

Now don't get me wrong - I want Unionists' freedom to be unionist guaranteed in the event of a UI. Let them have their flags and marches, no, let's enshrine it in our constitution. They have as much right to express themselves on the island as anyone else does.

It would have to be sold to them because they would be a large hostile minority being dragged into a situation they don't want to be in. Being dismissive of what they want even if a majority voted for a UI (and it would only be a slight minority if that) would be dangerous.

Bertie Woot

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Why is it when we have NI as part of the UK there can't be peace yet when its part of a UI there will be peace?

If there is a UI then the Unionists take the Nationalists place as the minority in a country they want no part of. Republicans keep saying they can be convinced but why cant the Nationalist community not be persuaded to live within the UK?

There is no guarantee of "peace" in a UI. It's a considerable gamble and there is a very real possibility of civil disturbance and a return to conflict should the Unionist minority find themselves in a country where they are persecuted, discriminated against and become a marginalised and alienated minority in a hostile and unwelcoming state. That is why it is essential that we learn from the Northern Ireland experience, embed sufficient guarantees, assurances and guarantees within a reunification document, and realise that "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

Nationalists in the North are coming around and embracing the "Northern Irish" identity and accepting NI's place within the UK, but these are mostly fickle and self interested middle class SDLP voters. Unionism has been provided with a great boost with an estimated 56% of SDLP voters now having accepted the Union, but that doesn't make the Union economically viable or morally right. Neither does it make the aspiration to reunification null and void.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I disagree, as the years go on without reunification more and more republicans will be disillusioned. The calls will still be there but each year they'll get quieter as it becomes apparent the struggle is unwinable, only then will we have lasting peace.

This is a terribly defeatist attitude, and regrettably, one encountered too often among Southern Irish people.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Now don't get me wrong - I want Unionists' freedom to be unionist guaranteed in the event of a UI. Let them have their flags and marches, no, let's enshrine it in our constitution. They have as much right to express themselves on the island as anyone else does.

Adams has himself stated clearly in his book "The New Ireland" that Unionists and Orangemen shall be permitted to practice their culture in a reunified 32 county pluralist Ireland. What Unionism fails to grasp is that for Republicans to deny Orangemen their culture would be to go against the grain and central tenets of classic Irish Republicanism in the tradition of Wolfe Tone and the United Irishmen.

It should however also be remembered that Mr Adams has lied about his paramilitary past, and continues to deny the active part he played in Republican violence.

pablomakaveli

Happyman42 wrote: »

Again, you are not looking at the big picture here, the IRA survived because it had the South to operate from and to support it, violent loyalism would wither on the vine because it wouldn't have that support. They simply wouldn't be able to sustain a campaign, because it would be in the British 'interest' to subdue them and thus ensure the success of a UI. A combination of British and Irish intelligence gathering and security would be a safeguard to the transition. And Loyalism knows that, only too well.

Loyalism has support in Scotland and amongst the right-wing element in Britain. Couple that with the tiny size of the DF and it could be a troublesome situation after a UI.

junder

Bertie Woot wrote: »

NI constitutes something like 2% of the UK and with a tiny minority presence in Westminster which is almost exclusively Unionist, with Sinn Fein continuing to refuse to take their seats. In a reunified Ireland Unionists would constitute approximately 20% of the Irish populace, and can consequently expect to receive a much larger political representation in an all Ireland government which they could work to the socioeconomic advantage of all of the 32 counties, not just six.

Sometimes it doesn't seem like it, but there is brains within Unionism; an all Ireland political arrangement can incorporate and accommodate Unionism as an asset, not a liability.



In a reunified Ireland "Northern Ireland" shall cease to exist. We currently have two countries, two states and two sets of governmental and socioeconomic infrastructure on this island, and the Northern Irish one is not, never has been, and never shall be economically viable, with it being dependent on the Barnett Formula and Westminster subsidy. Successive British governments post partition have effectively bankrolled the Northern Irish project, keeping it on life support. We are unsustainable if we became independent from the UK and did not unify with the 26 counties.

A one country, one state, one set of infrastructure arrangement would initially cost in terms of adjustment and realignment, but in the long term it would pay off both economically and socially, if both Republicans and Unionists collaborate and make a conscious effort to make a 32 county Irish Republic work for all Irish people.



If a referendum in the North achieves a majority in favour of reunification, NI shall unify with the 26 counties, as that shall be the democratic wish of the people of NI. If I'm not mistaken, there is no obligation on the ROI to call referendum on unity, so unity shall take place on the basis of a decision taken in the North and ratified at Westminster. Regardless of whether the South understand us or even wants us or not, we are your future partners in a 32 county independent Republic with national self determination should the majority in the six counties decide to opt for reunification any time in the future.



Does this map of Ireland look right to you?:



If you were a foreign visitor to these shores would you not question partition and the presence of a border? I've come to the conclusion that the border is no longer necessary. Regardless of ideology, when you drive across the border into the ROI there are no checkpoints, no searches, no Gardai, no sniffer dogs having a poke around in your vehicle. The border might as well not be there, and the only reason it has been for the past 92 years is because tenacious Unionists in 1921 offered resistance and war if Ireland was granted full independence. I do not believe in partition in 2013, feel that it has run its course, and it shall end with sufficient numbers of Unionists embracing selflessness and finally doing the right thing for Ireland, not themselves.



Please spell out these "good things". Economic meltdown in the ROI and NI dependent on London for its economic survival and constantly teetering on the brink of a return to violence with every dissident Republican attack? And who is your "own people"? Just the people of the South, and not those in the North?



The nail has been hit on the head.

So new flag, new police force, new national anthem, the present one is sectarian, free universal health, I work for the mod as a community worker you going to find me a new job or pay my bills until I secure new employment, i am also In The british army reserves how are you going facilitate that. You claim to be from the unionist community, you claim to have gone to universty but all you do is parrot the usual republican socalist empty retoric, yer capitalism bad, British imperialism blah blah, no substance just blame, how about substance how about cost how about real details other then airy fairy nonsense about a united ireland would be some sort of Utopia with free money for all, because where I stand all a united ireland is to me is financial ruin

karma_

junder wrote: »

So new flag, new police force, new national anthem, the present one is sectarian, free universal health, I work for the mod as a community worker you going to find me a new job or pay my bills until I secure new employment, i am also In The british army reserves how are you going facilitate that. You claim to be from the unionist community, you claim to have gone to universty but all you do is parrot the usual republican socalist empty retoric, yer capitalism bad, British imperialism blah blah, no substance just blame, how about substance how about cost how about real details other then airy fairy nonsense about a united ireland would be some sort of Utopia with free money for all, because where I stand all a united ireland is to me is financial ruin

As a nationalist heres my views on the issues you have raised.

New Flag? No problem with that.
New Police force? No problem with that.
New anthem? No problem with that.
Universal free health? Hell yeah I'm in favour of that.
your in the British military? Sure hundreds maybe thousands of citizens of the Irish Republic are already serving, don;t see the problem.

Also I really don't see why you are bringing socialism into this? You yourself have, on this forum expressed support for the PUP who are themselves a left-wing party, bit of a paradox there fella.

You put zero thought into this post, it's just the usual old rhetoric we hear time and again.

Iwasfrozen

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Please spell out these "good things". Economic meltdown in the ROI and NI dependent on London for its economic survival and constantly teetering on the brink of a return to violence with every dissident Republican attack? And who is your "own people"? Just the people of the South, and not those in the North?

Don't confuse short term economic slow down with a core failure of the 26 county state, you need us but we don't need you. I see no reason to destabilise this country over the sake of NI. The safety and security of our own people must come first.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Don't confuse short term economic slow down with a core failure of the 26 county state, you need us but we don't need you. I see no reason to destabilise this country over the sake of NI. The safety and security of our own people must come first.

A lot of this talk about security concerns and a UI destabilising the then to be single nation is a lot of nonsense. A UI is not about to happen in the short term, we are at least two generations away realistically and you can't use the situation on the ground today to predict what will happen in the future.

Bertie Woot

junder wrote: »

So new flag, new police force, new national anthem, the present one is sectarian, free universal health, I work for the mod as a community worker you going to find me a new job or pay my bills until I secure new employment, i am also In The british army reserves how are you going facilitate that. You claim to be from the unionist community, you claim to have gone to universty but all you do is parrot the usual republican socalist empty retoric, yer capitalism bad, British imperialism blah blah, no substance just blame, how about substance how about cost how about real details other then airy fairy nonsense about a united ireland would be some sort of Utopia with free money for all, because where I stand all a united ireland is to me is financial ruin

New flag, new Police force, and new national anthem; all for you. A move towards a health service based upon the NHS model would also be desirable. You wouldn't lose or have to give up your job as a community worker or cease to be a member of the British Army. Many Irishmen throughout history have served in the British Army, and their sacrifices for Britain are now finally being acknowledged.

I am indeed from the Unionist community, but after 44 years on this island and having lived through a 30 year period of conflict and subsequent agreement and accommodation, do not consider myself a Unionist, as I do not believe in the Union with GB being sustained at the expense of the continued partition of this island.

I parrot no-ones rhetoric but my own. I've been a Socialist and opposed to capitalism since I was 18 years old. I may use some Republican terminology, but I don't believe in an end to partition and the establishment of a 32 county Irish Republic by listening to Sinn Fein. I've read a sufficient quantity of Irish history and thought about our presence on this island to know that we are heading for reunification. Not only do I feel that this is inevitable, but in light of a very turbulent 800 years, now desirable.

We are here on this island because of British colonialism. When you walk with the Apprentice Boys you practice a culture which is an inherent part of the history of this island, and which has its rightful place in a united Ireland and in the story of Ireland.

There shall be no "free money for all" in a free Ireland, unfortunately you'll still have to work for a living. But there shall be a place for Unionists/Orangemen/Protestants/Loyalists. The Unionist-Protestant people constitute a significant presence in Ireland. I understand your fears and concerns as I share them, and that is why I shall never agree to a UI without steadfast copper-fastened assurances and guarantees written into a new Irish constitution that shall protect the Protestant people from persecution and discrimination, and allow them to sustain their national and cultural identity and practice their culture.

The economic argument against a UI is a non-runner, as the Irish economy is on the mend and can only get better.

A united Ireland might also help to raise your cognitive capacity. Think about it.

Happyman42

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Loyalism has support in Scotland and amongst the right-wing element in Britain. Couple that with the tiny size of the DF and it could be a troublesome situation after a UI.

Not a mission, they always had that support and where always in the happenny place in comparison to the much better equipped and resourced IRA and always found it difficult to take their campaign south of the border for those reasons. Logistically they would really struggle to mount a prolonged or effective campaign. Just like the current dissident violence is tolerable to the authorities (it really would be that cynical) so it would be with any Loyalist backlash.
Add a vigiliant and self interested British DF and their impact would be minimal. Ask yourself, had we been granted a UI back in 1922 would there still be a Loyalist faction fighting for runification with Britain?

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

A lot of this talk about security concerns and a UI destabilising the then to be single nation is a lot of nonsense. A UI is not about to happen in the short term, we are at least two generations away realistically and you can't use the situation on the ground today to predict what will happen in the future.

If in the future a UI won't destabilise the country or impact me or any other citizen of the south then fine I'll consider it. But as I've said our own people have to come first.

johnnydeep

shankespony wrote: »

What about Ireland joining the UK, I know its not a common held belief but after 800years we fecked it up ourselves and in less than 100 years. We are forcing 1,000s to emigrate and nearly 600,000 out of 4.5m people have negative equity and or mortgage arrears/payment issues and this will impair the economy for years to come. I can't see any way out, no imaginative thinking, no leadership across any of the political parties or maybe we can just have unpaid internships that will solve all problems!!!
Our politicians are a joke and not accountable and any idea the Brits seem to have we adopt most of their ideas anyway. Anyone in NI thinking of joining the ROI would need their head examined IMO.

you haven't been in England lately. its a complete ****hole

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But as I've said our own people have to come first.

So it's ok for Unionists to consider it a right to call themselves British but the Nationalists (who where never consulted about their fate) can't be Irish and therefore 'our' people? Just because people like you abandoned them and thus caused the conflict, doesn't make them somebody else's people.

pablomakaveli

karma_ wrote: »

As a nationalist heres my views on the issues you have raised.

New Flag? No problem with that.
New Police force? No problem with that.
New anthem? No problem with that.
Universal free health? Hell yeah I'm in favour of that.
your in the British military? Sure hundreds maybe thousands of citizens of the Irish Republic are already serving, don;t see the problem.

Also I really don't see why you are bringing socialism into this? You yourself have, on this forum expressed support for the PUP who are themselves a left-wing party, bit of a paradox there fella.

You put zero thought into this post, it's just the usual old rhetoric we hear time and again.

Funny how these things matter less to Republicans when a UI is involved

karma_

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Funny how these things matter less to Republicans when a UI is involved

Well... I'm not a republican, in the sense you seem to recognise. I'm a moderate nationalist raised in a staunchly SDLP supporting family. And EVEN for them some of the things you highlighted that I'm liberal toward they would not consider, the flag and anthem being two.

Nice jump of the gun there in fairness, what was your point again?

pablomakaveli

Happyman42 wrote: »

Not a mission, they always had that support and where always in the happenny place in comparison to the much better equipped and resourced IRA and always found it difficult to take their campaign south of the border for those reasons. Logistically they would really struggle to mount a prolonged or effective campaign. Just like the current dissident violence is tolerable to the authorities (it really would be that cynical) so it would be with any Loyalist backlash.
Add a vigiliant and self interested British DF and their impact would be minimal. Ask yourself, had we been granted a UI back in 1922 would there still be a Loyalist faction fighting for runification with Britain?

Again all this seems to be over optimistic. Even in this best case scenario there'd still be a a lot of bloodshed.

I'd imagine if the six counties had been part of Ireland from 1922 than yes they still would be fighting for reunification. Republicans still want the six counties after nearly a 100 years why would it be any different with loyalists.

pablomakaveli

karma_ wrote: »

Well... I'm not a republican, in the sense you seem to recognise. I'm a moderate nationalist raised in a staunchly SDLP supporting family. And EVEN for them some of the things you highlighted that I'm liberal toward they would not consider, the flag and anthem being two.

Nice jump of the gun there in fairness, what was your point again?

Fair enough if your not a republican. But i have seen Republicans state they would happily abandon the tricolour and amhran na bhfiann for a UI.

My point is its funny how they abandon some of their principles if a UI is at stake. Going as far as willing to accept bloodshed as a cost for it.

johnnydeep

Zombrex wrote: »

Japan before WW2 didn't have anything like the problems Northern Ireland does, and it still took Japan decades to recover.

Germany still hasn't recovered from unification with the east, and German has a much better economy than Ireland.

But you are also missing the point. There is nothing Ireland would be doing for Northern Ireland that the UK isn't already doing. And that hasn't sorted out Northern Ireland. If the economic problems in NI could be solved by unification they can also be solved by remaining in the UK. So ask yourself why are they not being solved by that?

You think you have a magic stick that will make any Irish government suddenly devote massive amount of time and money to fixing Northern Ireland. What magic thing do you think will happen to the NI economy by joining up with Ireland that is unachievable by being part of the UK?



You are missing the point.

What are the TDs in the Dail going to do for the sorry state that NI is in that the MPs in London didn't do? Ignore them in a slight friendly fashion :rolleyes:

Northern Ireland's problems need to be solved in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland at the moment has the advantage of a chance to fix its economy and provide serious longer term economic stability without having to worry that much about how that has to fit politically inside a much larger economic policy. That process will take decades, and the last thing they need to do right now is get swallowed up into Ireland where they become just another set of counties.



Northern Ireland has a huge systematic unemployment problem. It has huge systematic education problem. It has huge systematic training problems. It has a huge systematic investment problems. The UK masks this problem by providing thousands of public jobs, which would disappear if reunification took place.

What Northern Ireland need is to tackle employment, education, training and manufacturing problems. I have zero idea where you got the notion that Dublin will tackle that any better than London will.

You are basically asking that instead of tackling the problems they have when they have the opertunity to do this with semi-automoy, they instead get swallowed up into a larger country where they become just another set of counties, despite the fact that they are anything else but that.

And for what? So you can say "We won" and change the colour of a flag :rolleyes:



Marching down the Garvaghy road. Jesus Christ :rolleyes:

I'm sorry I thought you were having a serious conversation about the real and serious problems Northern Ireland has from an economic point of view.

My mistake, this is just another moronic "Brits out!" thread.

could you explain what you feel are the serious economic problems faced in the north of Ireland which are so exclusive to that part of the island