Towards a United Ireland

Iwasfrozen

Happyman42 wrote: »

So it's ok for Unionists to consider it a right to call themselves British but the Nationalists (who where never consulted about their fate) can't be Irish and therefore 'our' people? Just because people like you abandoned them and thus caused the conflict, doesn't make them somebody else's people.

They can be Irish all they want but that's just a name. The unionists created this problem when they treated Catholics like shít. Let them deal with it.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They can be Irish all they want but that's just a name.

Whether you care to accept it or not, nationalists in the North do consider themselves Irish and always have.

Bertie Woot

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Don't confuse short term economic slow down with a core failure of the 26 county state, you need us but we don't need you. I see no reason to destabilise this country over the sake of NI. The safety and security of our own people must come first.

The "you need us but we don't need you" attitude is not shared by all of your fellow countrymen, Irish Republicans in particular. And by dividing the Irish into us (down south) and you (up North), you effectively consolidate the partition of Ireland. You also display an inherently selfish attitude similar to Unionists, and that has never been positive or productive.

Having said all of that, I appreciate your concerns for the stability of Ireland come reunification, and respect them.

ONeill2013

I cringe when I hear northern Catholics starting to refer to themselves as Northern Irish, I'm not that interested in politics but I would never start to embrace the 'Northern Irish' identity, does Northern Ireland really have an identity anyway? Northern Irish is just an identity the unionists use to show that they are different from others on the island in my opinion. Someone called me Northern Irish at university in England recently and it made me go slightly light headed, makes us sound like some sort of plastic paddys. though this was coming from someone who said she loved maggie thatcher.
Though a lot of Irish in ROI piss me off with their unionist attitudes sometimes so I have no real desire to reunify with them.

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

Whether you care to accept it or not, nationalists in the North do consider themselves Irish and always have.

That's fine let them continue I have no problem with that.

Iwasfrozen

Bertie Woot wrote: »

The "you need us but we don't need you" attitude is not shared by all of your fellow countrymen, Irish Republicans in particular. And by dividing the Irish into us (down south) and you (up North), you effectively consolidate the partition of Ireland. You also display an inherently selfish attitude similar to Unionists, and that has never been positive or productive.

Having said all of that, I appreciate your concerns for the stability of Ireland come reunification, and respect them.

Well it's not an opinion it's a fact. The 26 counties is a viable independent state, the 6 counties are not.

It's not that I don't care about NI, given that choice I would rather peace in any region of the world but I simply have no connection with the North and no desire to destabilise my country or see my countrymen die trying to contain your country men. You want us to risk our economy and our independence for you but I see no benefit in it for us. Only pain.

johnnydeep

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Loyalism has support in Scotland and amongst the right-wing element in Britain. Couple that with the tiny size of the DF and it could be a troublesome situation after a UI.

in reality there support would be tiny. nothing compared with the ira. couple that with the fact that if they were seperated from Britain what could they hope to achieve by violence a separate state where they would be in the minority. a minority to a people they abused while they were the majority. ask prostestants living in the republic if they would rather live in the north as it stands or stay where they are

Bertie Woot

ONeill2013 wrote: »

I cringe when I hear northern Catholics starting to refer to themselves as Northern Irish, I'm not that interested in politics but I would never start to embrace the 'Northern Irish' identity, does Northern Ireland really have an identity anyway? Northern Irish is just an identity the unionists use to show that they are different from others on the island in my opinion. Someone called me Northern Irish at university in England recently and it made me go slightly light headed, makes us sound like some sort of plastic paddys. though this was coming from someone who said she loved maggie thatcher.

Margaret Thatcher once said that Northern Ireland was as "British as Finchley", then signed the Anglo-Irish Agreement which effectively acknowledged the fact that Northern ireland is a part of Ireland.

If you go up into outer space and look down upon Northern Ireland (I haven't actually done this and have somewhat foolishly relied upon the accuracy of google maps) it's plain to see that NI is in fact a part of Ireland; joined at the hip and inseparable.

I live in the Mourne mountains region of the North, and any time I've travelled through those mountains couldn't help notice the fact that this is definitely Ireland. Call it "Northern Ireland" if you will; it's Ireland.

ONeill2013

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Margaret Thatcher once said that Northern Ireland was as "British as Finchley", then signed the Anglo-Irish Agreement which effectively acknowledged the fact that Northern ireland is a part of Ireland.

If you go up into outer space and look down upon Northern Ireland (I haven't actually done this and have somewhat foolishly relied upon the accuracy of google maps) it's plain to see that NI is in fact a part of Ireland; joined at the hip and inseparable.

I live in the Mourne mountains region of the North, and any time I've travelled through those mountains couldn't help notice the fact that this is definitely Ireland. Call it "Northern Ireland" if you will; it's Ireland.

It's more the view that we aren't the real Irish people that angers me, the first people on the island were from the north of the island, does a 2nd generation Polish person with a Dublin accent have more right to call themselves Irish than us in the north? some people would say they do, that's the disturbing thing

oscarBravo

Bertie Woot wrote: »

If you go up into outer space and look down upon Northern Ireland (I haven't actually done this and have somewhat foolishly relied upon the accuracy of google maps) it's plain to see that NI is in fact a part of Ireland; joined at the hip and inseparable.

I just checked: you're right! Also, did you know that East Timor is part of Indonesia, Haiti is a part of the Dominican Republic, and Canada is part of the United States?

Iwasfrozen

ONeill2013 wrote: »

It's more the view that we aren't the real Irish people that angers me, the first people on the island were from the north of the island, does a 2nd generation Polish person with a Dublin accent have more right to call themselves Irish than us in the north? some people would say they do, that's the disturbing thing

That's... a little bit racist, nationality is not defined by ethnicity. If you're an irish citizen you are irish no matter what your ethnic background. A person up north who is not an irish citizen is not irish.

Iwasfrozen

oscarBravo wrote: »

I just checked: you're right! Also, did you know that East Timor is part of Indonesia, Haiti is a part of the Dominican Republic, and Canada is part of the United States?

Don't forget Germany is part of Afro-Eurasia, who knew! I can't wait for Bertie to make the case for Afro-Eurasian unity.

johnnydeep

oscarBravo wrote: »

I just checked: you're right! Also, did you know that East Timor is part of Indonesia, Haiti is a part of the Dominican Republic, and Canada is part of the United States?

useful...........not!!!!!!!!

ONeill2013

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's... a little bit racist, nationality is not defined by ethnicity. If you're an irish citizen you are irish no matter what your ethnic background. A person up north who is not an irish citizen is not irish.

I'm not one bit racist, I have more foreign friends than I do Irish friends. Doesn't family history have any play in nationality? Just a 5 minute search into a few of my recent family surnames shows that I have ancestors in Ireland dating back to the 400's

Iwasfrozen

ONeill2013 wrote: »

I'm not one bit racist, I have more foreign friends than I do Irish friends. Doesn't family history have any play in nationality? Just a 5 minute search into a few of my recent family surnames shows that I have ancestors in Ireland dating back to the 400's

So what? I have an old Irish name too, doesn't make me Irish. What makes me Irish is my citizenship.

Bertie Woot

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well it's not an opinion it's a fact. The 26 counties is a viable independent state, the 6 counties are not.

But of the 26 and 6 reunified you'd have also have an independent viable state.

It's not that I don't care about NI, given that choice I would rather peace in any region of the world but I simply have no connection with the North and no desire to destabilise my country or see my countrymen die trying to contain your country men. You want us to risk our economy and our independence for you but I see no benefit in it for us. Only pain.

The same can be said here. Many Northern Unionists feel no connection with the ROI. You speak with a different accent, live in a different region, and Ulster has been somewhat separate to the rest of Ireland as far back as Cuchulainn and the Black Pig's Dyke.

You don't have an economy in the proper sense at present, what you have is a very slow and painful recovery from total economic collapse, and there are many Northern Unionists who do not want to share your fiscal burden and use the economic argument as a very solid reason for continued opposition to reunification.

But what we are talking about here runs much deeper than economic arguments for and against a UI. The Irish capitulated to British demands for partition in 1921, and the partition of this island has provided the Republican Movement with a reason to exist and wage war on British state forces in NI. They continue to wage war in the form of Dissident Republicanism, albeit on a much lesser scale.

You have no economy to "risk", and whilst I appreciate your concerns for future national stability, and human life and limb, political change rarely comes about without sacrifice. And whilst there may be more trouble ahead, Ireland's independence is not under any threat from Britain. There shall never be a re-colonisation of the 26 counties.

There is long term benefit in reunification for the whole of Ireland, as integration of industries and public services North and South of the border can only provide social, political and economic strength.

karma_

oscarBravo wrote: »

I just checked: you're right! Also, did you know that East Timor is part of Indonesia, Haiti is a part of the Dominican Republic, and Canada is part of the United States?

Aye, lets just ignore the historical context of Ireland only being partitioned in the 20th Century.

Also, East Timor, Haiti, Canada & Ireland have one more thing in common.

ONeill2013

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So what? I have an old Irish name too, doesn't make me Irish. What makes me Irish is my citizenship.

so does the fact that I'm seen as British mean that 'Irish people' didn't exist when the full island was under British rule?

Bertie Woot

oscarBravo wrote: »

I just checked: you're right! Also, did you know that East Timor is part of Indonesia, Haiti is a part of the Dominican Republic, and Canada is part of the United States?

No, but I do now, and I'm all excited.

ONeill2013 wrote: »

It's more the view that we aren't the real Irish people that angers me, the first people on the island were from the north of the island, does a 2nd generation Polish person with a Dublin accent have more right to call themselves Irish than us in the north? some people would say they do, that's the disturbing thing

Many Irish-Americans take a similar view of NI not being the "real Ireland". But then, America has the lowest national average IQ in the Western world.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Don't forget Germany is part of Afro-Eurasia, who knew! I can't wait for Bertie to make the case for Afro-Eurasian unity.

My next thread: Towards Afro-Eurasian unity.

Watch this space.

Iwasfrozen

Bertie Woot wrote: »

But of the 26 and 6 reunified you'd have also have an independent viable state.

Yes, hence "you need us but we don't need you."

Bertie Woot wrote: »

The same can be said here. Many Northern Unionists feel no connection with the ROI. You speak with a different accent, live in a different region, and Ulster has been somewhat separate to the rest of Ireland as far back as Cuchulainn and the Black Pig's Dyke.

You don't have an economy in the proper sense at present, what you have is a very slow and painful recovery from total economic collapse, and there are many Northern Unionists who do not want to share your fiscal burden and use the economic argument a very solid reason for opposition to reunification.

But what we are talking about here runs much deeper than economic arguments for and against a UI. The Irish capitulated to British demands for partition in 1921, and the partition of this island has provided the Republican Movement with a reason to exist and wage war on British state forces in NI. They continue to wage war in the form of Dissident Republicanism, albeit on a much lesser scale.

You have no economy to "risk", and whilst I appreciate your concerns for future national stability, and human life and limb, political change rarely comes about without sacrifice. And whilst there may be more trouble ahead, Ireland's independence is not under any threat from Britain. There shall never be a re-colonisation of the 26 counties.

There is long term benefit in reunification for the whole of Ireland, as integration of industries and public services North and South of the border can only provide social, political and economic strength.

Your dismissal of human life and limb is a little bit unnerving, obviously you know human life will be lost following unification but you view this loss of human life as less important then territorial change.

We have no business in NI, it is not ours to own and your people are not our people. I for one will be voting no.

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well it's not an opinion it's a fact. The 26 counties is a viable independent state, the 6 counties are not.

It's not that I don't care about NI, given that choice I would rather peace in any region of the world but I simply have no connection with the North and no desire to destabilise my country or see my countrymen die trying to contain your country men. You want us to risk our economy and our independence for you but I see no benefit in it for us. Only pain.

The island is unstable. Ask the family of that RUC guy that got shot, ask the security forces. It will further destabilise if people like you are allowed to keep their heads in the sand. We can't abandon the problem again.

ONeill2013

I would probably vote No as well, ROI should just come join us in the UK since they seem so loyal.

oscarBravo

karma_ wrote: »

Aye, lets just ignore the historical context of Ireland only being partitioned in the 20th Century.

I guess it makes a change from ignoring the historical context of Ireland never having existed as a sovereign, independent all-island nation-state.

Iwasfrozen

ONeill2013 wrote: »

so does the fact that I'm seen as British mean that 'Irish people' didn't exist when the full island was under British rule?

They were ethnically irish but not irish citizens since such a ciizenship did not exist. Again the difference between ethnicity and nationality is very important.

oscarBravo

Happyman42 wrote: »

The island is unstable. Ask the family of that RUC guy that got shot, ask the security forces. It will further destabilise if people like you are allowed to keep their heads in the sand. We can't abandon the problem again.

Ah, the old "it's a nice island you got there - be a pity if anything happened to it" subtext.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, hence "you need us but we don't need you."


Your dismissal of human life and limb is a little bit unnerving, obviously you know human life will be lost following unification but you view this loss of human life as less important then territorial change.

We have no business in NI, it is not ours to own and your people are not our people. I for one will be voting no.

You could make the same argument about building a road. In fact it's just an appeal to emotion and not an argument at all.

karma_

oscarBravo wrote: »

I guess it makes a change from ignoring the historical context of Ireland never having existed as a sovereign, independent all-island nation-state.

Doesn't mean we can't aspire to achieve the same now does it.

Happyman42

Are you suffering from the delusion that the island is 'stable' too?
Iwasfrozen is accepting a level of violence that they find tolerable. That is morally repugnant, and they should shut up and allow people who want to find a lasting solution to get on with it. People 'haven't cared' for long enough.

oscarBravo

karma_ wrote: »

Doesn't mean we can't aspire to achieve the same now does it.

You can aspire to anything you want, as long as you don't demand that the rest of us subscribe to the delusion that it's the natural and imprescribable state of affairs.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are you suffering from the delusion that the island is 'stable' too?

It might be, if it wasn't for the combination of people prepared to kill for a political aim and people who keep muttering darkly about how the violence will continue until we give the terrorists (who they don't, of course, support in any way) what they want.

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

You could make the same argument about building a road. In fact it's just an appeal to emotion and not an argument at all.

On the contrary a road gives us something. It provides a service to pay for the risk and cost involved in it's construction. NI does not, it's a useless piece of land with a poorly trained dysfunctional population. We have no strategic interest in the place and gain no benefit from it's accusation.