Is it not time that Hospital staff did Jail Time for their errors?

vicwatson

Excuses excuses always.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/14m-for-girl-8-as-hospital-admits-injuries-shouldnt-have-happened-29217563.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/hospital-apologises-after-death-of-tenmonth-old-baby-kaiden-29217036.html

Seems as if all they have to do is say sorry and that's it - scott free

This happens all too often.

brandon_flowers

Jail...... that'll fix the healthcare system in this country.

Corkbah

isn't that a different way of saying the HSE is in need of reform ?

VinLieger

LOL really? The only thing it would cause is for anyone involved in healthcare to be ever more hesitant as far as treatment goes for fear of prison time

FR85

What about the banks? If we took that mentality half the country would be in prison costing the country millions per year keeping them inside......

For that matter, what about two thirds of the government...........

BillyMitchel

Stop listening to Joe Duffy ye big oul one!

Mr. CooL ICE

If the traffic corpse garda fail to stop every speeding driver that ends up in a fatal crash, should we jail them too?

Viper_JB

Not many jobs that would result in you going to jail for making a mistake, I know it's peoples lives....but mistakes happen and I'm sure those responsible don't need jail time to compound their guilt, they're not dangerous people and they don't need to be locked away - maybe fired if very serious...

ballsymchugh

i demand prison sentences for those whose threads backfire!

stoneill

We don't have jails - we have prisons.
And no - that's not the answer.

My name is URL

vicwatson wrote: »

Excuses excuses always.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/14m-for-girl-8-as-hospital-admits-injuries-shouldnt-have-happened-29217563.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/hospital-apologises-after-death-of-tenmonth-old-baby-kaiden-29217036.html

Seems as if all they have to do is say sorry and that's it - scott free

This happens all too often.

Mistakes are made in every profession, all over the world. Ireland is ahead of others when it comes to accepting liability etc.

If people are faced with the threat of jail time for making mistakes then they'd be far less likely to make crucial decisions at crucial times; and that would cost lives too.

wolfpawnat

Can we deal with the fact most of them are overworked, overtired and underfed first? I mean as much as their wage slips say they are only working 12 hours, some doctors do not get only work those hours and they can hardly be at the top of their game if this is the case, ergo more mistakes are likely to occur.

My name is URL

LordChessington wrote: »

If the traffic corpse garda fail to stop every speeding driver that ends up in a fatal crash, should we jail them too?

If the Garda is a corpse they have more important things to be worrying about than jail

smellslikeshoes

Don't they say that it's always only a matter of time before a doctor makes a mistake that kills a patient? Healthcare would crumble because they would all be in jail.

endacl

Errare humanum est...

godwin

LordChessington wrote: »

If the traffic corpse garda fail to stop every speeding driver that ends up in a fatal crash, should we jail them too?

That analogy would make sense in this case if the Garda worked on the vehicle and failed to fit brakes or removed the brakes by accident.

orestes

Medical staff are already scared sh1tless about getting sued and losing their careers if they make a mistake, if we start locking them up them up every time they make a mistake we're gonna have none left pretty quickly because they will be too afraid to even practice medicine. Accidents happen. I don't mean that to sound insensitive to the people who's lives are affected by them, but it's an unfortunate fact. Yes, everything should be done to minimise the chances of them happening and to prevent the same mistakes being made again, but there is a big difference between criminal negligence and making a mistake.

Each case should be taken on a case by case basis, and those responsible for mistakes should be held accountable, but sending people to jail for making a single mistake in a career filled with constant high pressure situations where theirs is the final judgement call is hysterically over-reactionary (again, cases of criminal negligence are different).

af_thefragile

The baby died because of the extremely inefficient way the HSE functions.
If anyone needs to go to jail, it should be the people who run the HSE.

kippy

vicwatson wrote: »

Excuses excuses always.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/14m-for-girl-8-as-hospital-admits-injuries-shouldnt-have-happened-29217563.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/hospital-apologises-after-death-of-tenmonth-old-baby-kaiden-29217036.html

Seems as if all they have to do is say sorry and that's it - scott free

This happens all too often.

In all fairness, (and I haven't read either of the links) some of the medical profession work some of the craziest hours imaginable that very few other professions work.
When you think that their job can involve literally life and death and the ability to make complex decisions at short notice, as well as perfrom some "ropey" procedures yet some of them work 24 hours straight you've got to expect mistakes to be made.

Unfortunately in EVERY job, people make mistakes, irradicating those mistakes can often be complex but in some jobs making a mistake doesn't actually kill anyone.

Suggesting jail time is over the top in my opinion UNLESS a CRIMINAL event occured.

positron

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Can we deal with the fact most of them are overworked, overtired and underfed first?

This is not going to be a popular opinion but here goes : You can get thousands of people to happily take up an excel at these "overworked, underpaid, underfed" jobs as you put it, if the government and HSE were to recruit from outside the country.

goose2005

Reading the details you find:

Failure to thrive was diagnosed but an MRI scan which diagnosed a brain tumour was not carried out until June 24 of that year.

Had the tumour been diagnosed at an earlier stage, it was claimed Kaiden could have availed of therapy leading to his survival.

What's your solution to prevent things like this happening? Send thousands of patients for unnecessary MRIs in case one of them has something? Because that's what doctors will do if you put the fear of god into them - result, MRI queues get even longer, people die

It was claimed the HSE failed to have properly trained competent medical staff to deal with the delivery and and failed to ensure there were competent obstetricians available to effect a delivery.

So that sounds like it was a bureaucratic failure / lack of resources issue, rather than incompetence or arrogance.

positron wrote:

You can get thousands of people to happily take up an excel at these "overworked, underpaid, underfed" jobs as you put it, if the government and HSE were to recruit from outside the country.

They already do. And I'm sure you'd be the first to complain if you couldn't understand your doctor's accent.

Knasher

positron wrote: »

You can get thousands of people to happily take up an excel at these "overworked, underpaid, underfed" jobs as you put it, if the [...] HSE were to recruit from outside the country.

The HSE does recruit from outside the country.

positron

goose2005 wrote: »

They already do. And I'm sure you'd be the first to complain if you couldn't understand your doctor's accent.

I doubt that very much, I have a foreign accent myself.

Knasher wrote: »

The HSE does recruit from outside the country.

Yep they do - but they can get a lot more people for their money if they want to, but may have various rules, policies or regulations standing in their way. I am not saying those policies are bad, I am just saying it's actually possible to find more workers if they really want to.

Syllabus

vicwatson wrote: »

Excuses excuses always.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/14m-for-girl-8-as-hospital-admits-injuries-shouldnt-have-happened-29217563.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/hospital-apologises-after-death-of-tenmonth-old-baby-kaiden-29217036.html

Seems as if all they have to do is say sorry and that's it - scott free

This happens all too often.

What do you do for a living?

wolfpawnat

positron wrote: »

This is not going to be a popular opinion but here goes : You can get thousands of people to happily take up an excel at these "overworked, underpaid, underfed" jobs as you put it, if the government and HSE were to recruit from outside the country.

I said overtired, overworked and underfed, nothing about underpaid, ,although I do believe a doctor should be paid for hours worked, regardless of their race. Have you been to an Irish hospital? They are filled with foreign trained staff of all ethnicity.

What I am saying is if you want to have a productive and high quality work force, they need to have proper breaks and a good nights sleep. Not 24 hour shifts and one break in that time. Less mistakes then, and as a result less chance of deaths occurring. Regardless of a persons ethnic background and race, they will make mistakes if tired and hungry. We all do!

positron

Cheers - I agree with you actually. I too think the 24 hour shift system is counterproductive.

o1s1n

You'd want to be some kind of superman to do your job 100% correct 100% of the time.

Unless the problem is due to gross negligence or willful neglect then prison time should never be on the cards.

bleg

My name is URL wrote: »

Mistakes are made in every profession, all over the world. Ireland is ahead of others when it comes to accepting liability etc.

If people are faced with the threat of jail time for making mistakes then they'd be far less likely to make crucial decisions at crucial times; and that would cost lives too.

Then you could jail them for not making the crucial decision. :pac::pac::pac:

Chuck Stone

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Can we deal with the fact most of them are overworked, overtired and underfed first?

One of the reasons for this is that the supply of doctors is kept deliberately low - professional unions block increasing the number of available slots for medical training.

Low supply > high demand > $$$.

wolfpawnat

Chuck Stone wrote: »

One of the reasons for this is that the supply of doctors is kept deliberately low - professional unions block increasing the number of available slots for medical training.

Low supply > high demand > $$$.

Under the European Working Hours Directive, they are forced to be paid, I think it is 48 (correct me if I am wrong) hours and yet they are forced to work longer. I know a few doctors where this is a case and in my work placement for nursing, I saw it first hand!

Chuck Stone

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Under the European Working Hours Directive, they are forced to be paid, I think it is 48 (correct me if I am wrong) hours and yet they are forced to work longer. I know a few doctors where this is a case and in my work placement for nursing, I saw it first hand!

I'm not disagreeing with that - I was just pointing out that the number of doctors qualifying is kept deliberately low by professional unions and that this low supply probably contributes to the work load.

papajimsmooth

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with that - I was just pointing out that the number of doctors qualifying is kept deliberately low by professional unions and that this low supply probably contributes to the work load.

Thats entirely untrue. The HSE had to create extra intern places to accommodate for the rise in Irish medical graduates this year

SEPT 23 1989

Its all a systems failure

nobody is to blame

wolfpawnat

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with that - I was just pointing out that the number of doctors qualifying is kept deliberately low by professional unions and that this low supply probably contributes to the work load.

But we are getting doctors from abroad, we cannot fill the places.

hatrickpatrick

Can we differentiate between making an honest mistake and being lazy or negligent?
I think the OP is suggesting that far more of the latter happens, than is properly penalised.

wandatowell

I blame SkyNet

Fighting Irish

no, doctors are people, all people make mistakes

gctest50

Fighting Irish wrote: »

no, doctors are people, all people make mistakes

.

Ken.

Over any extended time line every doctor has a 100% fail rate. So do we jail the doctors as they qualify to be on the safe side?.

Marsden

Why stop at medical staff. A bag packer at tesco's put heavy fruit in the top of my bag and squished the egg's underneath. It was malicious, surely a week or two in the slammer would curb this type of thing.

withless

Every doctor should have 'yer average, ordinary citizen- a Joe Soap' following him about and pointing out mistakes.

The man in the street never gets things wrong in this country.

Marsden

ken wrote: »

Over any extended time line every doctor has a 100% fail rate. So do we jail the doctors as they qualify to be on the safe side?.

You might be on to something there ken, a kind of minority report pre crime medical division, all they'll need are google glasses and an x box connect.

Icemancometh

Chuck Stone wrote: »

One of the reasons for this is that the supply of doctors is kept deliberately low - professional unions block increasing the number of available slots for medical training.

Low supply > high demand > $$$.

Any evidence for this?

Boombastic

Marsden wrote: »

Why stop at medical staff. A bag packer at tesco's put heavy fruit in the top of my bag and squished the egg's underneath. It was malicious, surely a week or two in the slammer would curb this type of thing.

Could you eat it after?

Maybe the worker was underfed :pac:

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

This idea is so ridiculous it may actually be taken on board by the government.

To err is human OP. You can't simply throw somebody in jail for this sort of thing, what do you think will happen? More lives would be lost.

ToddyDoody

Only if they mistakenly kill someone important

Fighting Irish

gctest50 wrote: »

.

that's different

Steve O

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Only if they mistakenly kill someone important

Let 'em loose on dose bankers deyer.

af_thefragile

Retrospect is an amazing thing but unfortunately it can't change the course of events.

Doctors work in extremely critical and often very stressful and time limited environments. Factor in inefficiently long HSE work hours and it only makes this worse. Doctors make mistakes all the time. Most of the times they're small mistakes they can get away with as these mistakes can easily be corrected. Sometimes bigger mistakes happen which have more lasting impact of the patient. Its human nature to make mistakes and nothing can prevent this. Even machines can fail and malfunction at times. This is why all doctors need to have medical insurance cover to work here and in most other countries. That's what protects them when big screw ups happen.

The loss of a child is always a tragic event. The doctors possibly did make a mistake in that they delayed the investigation for too long which may have had cost the child's life. But we can't jump the gun here. People are innocent until proven guilty. Its only after a full enquiry into the child's case that it can be decided if what the doctors did was right or wrong and if that was what directly resulted in the death of the child and how easily preventable it was. Most medical cases are fairly tricky and at most times it isn't easy to figure out what's going on and what needs to be done. Again in retrospect it may all appear very clear and straight forward what happened and what wasn't done but at the moment things appear much different and challenging. This is why it is very highly stressed that every action that's taken regarding a patient's case is documented into their chart so that if they ever run into any situation such as thing, the course of actions will be well documented and the jury can then decide whether the course of actions were appropriate for the time or there were areas of negligence. Good documentation itself is taken to be an action against negligence which is why as a doctor the most important thing you can do is to chart every single intervention and medical decision down to cover your ass more than anything else!