Is Drink Spiking an Urban Myth or big catch all excuse?

Frank Black

MadsL wrote: »

Arthur Conan Doyle was the doctor I was referring to, but well done.

Oh.


He wasn't really a famous doctor though, more of a doctor who was famous.

Pug160

If the beers are served at close to zero that will definitely make a difference as the colder a beer is the less you can taste of it, which is why good beers are best when served chilled rather than very cold and why rubbish beers need to be as cold as possible. I still think I'd be able to tell the difference but I can appreciate that it would be harder.

The second point is regarding the fruit beer comment. Well, it's a fruit beer, so that's why it was harder to tell the difference probably. A decent, non fruit beer would be easier to tell. But stranger things have happened. Maybe I'll try a taste test some night when I'm bored.

MadsL

Frank Black wrote: »

Oh.


He wasn't really a famous doctor though, more of a doctor who was famous.

That was the joke.


Never mind.

Frank Black

MadsL wrote: »

That was the joke.


Never mind.

Oh, now I get it.

Good one.

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

I have no idea. Does it mean that my experience is therefore a fiction? No.

Did that barman say it was vodka or did you fill that bit in? I'm just trying to get things straight because at one point you were sure it was vodka, other times you don't know and there's no way to know, I just find it very puzzling.

Perhaps if you could make a point i could address it. You haven't said anything other than I don't believe it yet.

See what you just did above? An answer to a question, but not a straight one.

:rolleyes:

You've implied I'm a rape apologist/denier, called me Victor Meldrew because I don't believe everything you say, said you're leaving because someone dared to ask how you gleaned some knowledge which you later decide you actually didn't know, what would you call such behaviour?

I said you were victim-blaming, you still appear to be attacking the victim.

Attacking you? Good one.

Because any questions you have asked I have answered, the rest of your posts is you poo-pooing any idea that this could have happened.

There's more than one inconsistency in what you've said and I'm just looking for clarification is all. First you seem to know it's vodka, then you don't, then some guy apparently told you (who doesn't sound like the most reliable source) it was vodka. Then for the quantity it was 1.14 litres and then wait, no, it was about a naggin.

MadsL

Deleted User wrote: »

Did that barman say it was vodka or did you fill that bit in? I'm just trying to get things straight because at one point you were sure it was vodka, other times you don't know and there's no way to know, I just find it very puzzling.

What would it be other than a clear fairly tasteless spirit. Either vodka or slivovice? I doubt the bartender specified it was vodka.

See what you just did above? An answer to a question, but not a straight one.

Ask a question and I'll answer it, you just haven't been.

You've implied I'm a rape apologist/denier, called me Victor Meldrew because I don't believe everything you say, said you're leaving because someone dared to ask how you gleaned some knowledge which you later decide you actually didn't know, what would you call such behaviour?

What would you call it when someone blames a victim? When they repeat "I don't believe it" without offering any basis for denial?

Attacking you? Good one.

You weren't? Good impression.

There's more than one inconsistency in what you've said and I'm just looking for clarification is all. First you seem to know it's vodka, then you don't, then some guy apparently told you (who doesn't sound like the most reliable source) it was vodka. Then for the quantity it was 1.14 litres and then wait, no, it was about a naggin.

I apologise if my memory of an event that put me in a hospital twenty years ago is not as sharp as you would like. I must try harder.

Yellowblackbird

Seachmall wrote: »

Your post is fairly clear-cut and specific about the point it's making.

It's also 100% wrong.

100% wrong? I remember posting an opinion not a mathematical formula

You know the single motivating factor in every man who has ever committed rape?

Are you qualified to determine the motivations of any rapist?

Seachmall

Yellowblackbird wrote: »

100% wrong? I remember posting an opinion not a mathematical formula

You know the single motivating factor in every man who has ever committed rape?

Are you qualified to determine the motivations of any rapist?

Who's talking about motivation?

You said "Rape we are told is about power and control so the rapist won't sate his sick needs with in an inaminate piece of meat".

But rapists do. Hence you being wrong. It's pretty cut and dry.

astonaidan

I had my drinks spiked in a "Lovely" establishment in Galway, I couldnt remember a single thing that happened after I drank my drink when I came back from the bathroom.
My guess is the spike wasnt meant for me though, being a guy

Yellowblackbird

Seachmall wrote: »

Who's talking about motivation?

You said "Rape we are told is about power and control so the rapist won't sate his sick needs with in an inaminate piece of meat".

But rapists do. Hence you being wrong. It's pretty cut and dry.

A woman who would normally have sexual power over a man. He gets his kick out of taking that control from her. Her fear, helplessness and powerlessness vividly animated to him at close and intimate quarters through every moment of the attack. She is concious of and experiences his power over her.

To what extent if any is this present if the woman is unconcious or dead? Surely it is common sense to see that there is a difference?

Seachmall

Yellowblackbird wrote: »

A woman who would normally have sexual power over a man. He gets his kick out of taking that control from her. Her fear, helplessness and powerlessness vividly animated to him at close and intimate quarters through every moment of the attack. She is concious of and experiences his power over her.

To what extent if any is this present if the woman is unconcious or dead? Surely it is common sense to see that there is a difference?

Yellowblackbird wrote: »

Are you qualified to determine the motivations of any rapist?

...

Yellowblackbird

I'm not qualified. But I'm not in a discussion forum telling people their opinions are 100% wrong.
You're not qualified either but it doesn't constrain your condescending arrogance.

Seachmall

Yellowblackbird wrote: »

I'm not qualified. But I'm not in a discussion forum telling people their opinions are 100% wrong.
You're not qualified either but it doesn't constrain your condescending arrogance.

You said a "rapist won't sate his sick needs with in an inaminate piece of meat".

I demonstrated rapists, including serial rapists, have raped unconscious women (as if anyone needed to point that out).

Thus, you were wrong.


You're now psychoanalysing the motivations of rapists based on what I presume is your vast knowledge of Criminal Minds which, while being pretty funny, is irrelevant.

Yellowblackbird

Seachmall wrote: »

You said a "rapist won't sate his sick needs with in an inaminate piece of meat".

I demonstrated rapists, including serial rapists, have raped unconscious women (as if anyone needed to point that out).

Thus, you were wrong.


You're now psychoanalysing the motivations of rapists based on what I presume is your vast knowledge of Criminal Minds which, while being pretty funny, is irrelevant.

As I told you a while ago, you didn't understand my post. I didn't mean that every man who ever committed rape had the same solitary motivation.
If that's what you think you're arguing against then pat yourself on the back. What an insight. You're a genious. You might even be ready to learn what 'psychoanalysis' means pretty soon.

MadsL

If a verbal no means no, there lots of other scenarios also mean no even if no is not spoken. Like having sex with a drunk unconscious girl who cannot give consent. It is still rape. Lots of rapists don't set out to be rapists, they find an opportunity and cannot control themselves.

Are we having to explain the basics now?

Seachmall

Yellowblackbird wrote: »

I didn't mean that every man who ever committed rape had the same solitary motivation.

I never suggested you did.

You claimed that the "mythical date-raper" who is motivated by "power and control" wouldn't "sate his sick needs with in an inaminate piece of meat".

I showed otherwise.

You created a character, assigned him motivations and then developed an exclusive M.O. for him. Given you admit to having no qualifications in the field this is presumably an entire work of fiction based on your vast couch-facing-TV experience.

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

What would it be other than a clear fairly tasteless spirit. Either vodka or slivovice? I doubt the bartender specified it was vodka.

Uh-oh, sounds like you're making assumptions now!

Ask a question and I'll answer it, you just haven't been.

You've gone back and forth about if it was vodka or even if you knew it was vodka and now you've realised you can't remember things clearly.

What would you call it when someone blames a victim? When they repeat "I don't believe it" without offering any basis for denial?

Have you stopped beating your wife? This has nothing to do with rape or anything else. Your version of events doesn't stack up.

You weren't? Good impression.

Anyone who doesn't agree with you and accept everything you say is attacking you? Good to know.

I apologise if my memory of an event that put me in a hospital twenty years ago is not as sharp as you would like. I must try harder.

So wait, if you're misremembering something does that mean that using the "logic" you used earlier in the thread you think you're a liar rather than mistaken?


It's simple anyway as to what I'm asking, 2 pints of vodka (or not) or one-fifth of that? The other thing is the source of your information and its reliability.

MadsL

You are clearly just looking for an argument.

I related what happened to me. And been clear about the things I know for a fact and those that are assumption or third hand.

You don't believe it, but cannot come up with any other explanation.

All the skin on my nose is still there. Goodnight.

I am pie

So, that whole pointless piss1ng contest above proves that it might have happened once, 20 years ago...somewhere out foreign. At that it was allegedly some idiot picking on someone they didnt like rather than an attempt to knock them out cold.

Ray Palmer

MadsL wrote: »

You are clearly just looking for an argument.

I related what happened to me. And been clear about the things I know for a fact and those that are assumption or third hand.

You don't believe it, but cannot come up with any other explanation.

All the skin on my nose is still there. Goodnight.

In fairness the story is just unbelievable. There is no alternative explanation required as nobody needs to believe the outcome.

I simply don't believe it. You could be lying outright or simply exaggerating.

If somebody put salad cream on a cake instead of fresh cream and said they didn't notice but it made them really sick and put them in hospital I wouldn't believe them either.

One issue is the taste and the other issue is the effects not being noticed.

Three Seasons

Seachmall wrote: »

Who's talking about motivation?

You said "Rape we are told is about power and control so the rapist won't sate his sick needs with in an inaminate piece of meat".

But rapists do. Hence you being wrong. It's pretty cut and dry.

So are you saying there are other motivations to rape apart from power?

Seachmall

Three Seasons wrote: »

So are you saying there are other motivations to rape apart from power?

No.

MadsL

Ray Palmer wrote: »

In fairness the story is just unbelievable. There is no alternative explanation required as nobody needs to believe the outcome.

I simply don't believe it. You could be lying outright or simply exaggerating.

If somebody put salad cream on a cake instead of fresh cream and said they didn't notice but it made them really sick and put them in hospital I wouldn't believe them either.

One issue is the taste and the other issue is the effects not being noticed.

Just one flaw in your argument there. The fact that it happened.

Ray Palmer

MadsL wrote: »

Just one flaw in your argument there. The fact that it happened.

Not really I don't believe you so you repeating it is true doesn't invalidate that argument.

MadsL

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Not really I don't believe you so you repeating it is true doesn't invalidate that argument.

Nor does your denial add any weight to yours.

Assuming I have no reason to lie, can you come up with any other explanation of why I would end up in hospital with acute alcohol poisioning after four pints?

If on the other hand you just think I am a liar, then your argument really is just "liar, liar, pants on fire."

hardCopy

MadsL wrote: »

You are clearly just looking for an argument.

I related what happened to me. And been clear about the things I know for a fact and those that are assumption or third hand.

You don't believe it, but cannot come up with any other explanation.

All the skin on my nose is still there. Goodnight.

Why do you believe what the barman said?

Frank Black

MadsL wrote: »

Nor does your denial add any weight to yours.

Assuming I have no reason to lie, can you come up with any other explanation of why I would end up in hospital with acute alcohol poisioning after four pints?

If on the other hand you just think I am a liar, then your argument really is just "liar, liar, pants on fire."

Jaysus - why don't you let it go.
No one has an obligation to believe you.
You've said it happened.
He doesn't believe you.
He doesn't need to come up with an another explanation for what happened to you, because he doesn't believe it happened to you in the first place.

Why is it so important that everyone on an internet forum believes your story. You can't force everyone to believe you.

Just accept that some people believe you and some think you're making the whole thing up or exaggerating parts of the story for dramatic effect.

Ray Palmer

MadsL wrote: »

Nor does your denial add any weight to yours.

Assuming I have no reason to lie, can you come up with any other explanation of why I would end up in hospital with acute alcohol poisioning after four pints?

If on the other hand you just think I am a liar, then your argument really is just "liar, liar, pants on fire."

Why would I assume you have no reason to lie? Although I pointed out you could be exaggerating which is pretty normal

Given the details you have given it is simply unbelievable. It has two massive issues that make your claims so incredibly unlikely. I have already stated them. My argument isn't simply you are lying with no founding for that. It is your story doesn't make any sense given normal reality.

That puts weight to my point of view and takes away from your claims. So I don't believe you and neither do a lot of other people. I am sure if you said this to your friends they would also not believe you either. So I my argument isn't you are liar it is the story doesn't match to known reality that I have experienced. I wouldn't believe you if you said you had x-ray vision and your story seems that likely to me.

MadsL

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Why would I assume you have no reason to lie?

Because it is a pretty ****ty position to assume that everyone lies as a default position.

Although I pointed out you could be exaggerating which is pretty normal

Nothing exaggerated. Ended up in hospital - lost about 3 hours somewhere on the metro, woke up with paramedics over me. Woke up again strapped down in ER, the woke up again in the ward.

Given the details you have given it is simply unbelievable. It has two massive issues that make your claims so incredibly unlikely.

You don't have to believe it, but whilst unlikely in your view, it is true.

I have already stated them. My argument isn't simply you are lying with no founding for that. It is your story doesn't make any sense given normal reality.

Reality that you haven't put to objective test. You think this to be impossible, but have not done any kind of test to disprove it. I think we need a mythbusters style double-blind test to set this up, the problem is that if you know you are going to be spiked then you are on the lookout for it. The observation changes the outcome.

That puts weight to my point of view and takes away from your claims.

I'm not making claims. I'm relating events as they happened to me.

So I don't believe you and neither do a lot of other people.

Argumentum ad popularum? A lot of other people?

I am sure if you said this to your friends they would also not believe you either. So I my argument isn't you are liar it is the story doesn't match to known reality that I have experienced. I wouldn't believe you if you said you had x-ray vision and your story seems that likely to me.

So go test your reality. As has been suggested earlier in this thread. Go out for six pints and have a bartender serve you one with a vodka shot in it at some random point during the evening. My version of reality says you won't spot it, but until you have objectively tested it all you are doing is saying you know better than me, without any basis for your 'knowledge'.

At the end of the day, regardless of your "belief" the event happened.

Ray Palmer

I can taste a vodka in a beer and I don't need to test this again. 4 shots and 4 pints is not enough to get acute alcohol poisoning IMHO either. Nothing you have said has expanded on your claims repeating them won't make me believe you.

Clarehobo

dd972 wrote: »

To explain myself more lucidly, of course it's happened and such a thing exists in the great out there, however, how many stories do you hear of someone's behavior in a court case or whatever being attributed to someone spiking their drink?

I can't say I've ever witnessed someone's drink being spiked.

I've never witnessed it but that is the whole point - people don't see it happening.
I had my pints spiked with wine by a friend. I never even noticed she had been doing it.
Met one of the girls the next day and I was saying how I was drunker than normal in a very short time and I was sick as a small hospital - she was saying how this friend had been doing it.
No real motivation, just she was trying to get rid of her wine because her boyfriend had stockpiled it. Made sense to her at the time. Got a big apology from her later. Goes to show it can happen very easily.

Also, nightclub in University employed a drug dealer as a barman who had a tendency to try out a new batch by dropping one in a random unsuspecting punters drink and seeing what happened.

A number of awareness campaigns have been run around people leaving drinks unattended to show them how easy it is to have their drink spiked without anyone noticing...Example

kylith

Clarehobo wrote: »

I've never witnessed it but that is the whole point - people don't see it happening.
I had my pints spiked with wine by a friend. I never even noticed she had been doing it.
Met one of the girls the next day and I was saying how I was drunker than normal in a very short time and I was sick as a small hospital - she was saying how this friend had been doing it.
No real motivation, just she was trying to get rid of her wine because her boyfriend had stockpiled it. Made sense to her at the time. Got a big apology from her later. Goes to show it can happen very easily.

I've had drinks spiked with booze 'for the laugh' by a family member who thought I was being 'no fun'.

I knew I was getting quite drunk so I switched to drinking coke. It was only when I was still in the horrors and vomiting the next day that he admitted that every coke he'd handed me had had a triple vodka in it. He'd counted on the fact that I was quite tipsy to hide the taste. We'd been in the pub all night so, after I'd thought I'd stopped drinking after about 4 V&Cs I'd probably drank at least 6 more vodkas without realising. If I'd wandered off I would have been completely defenceless. I've never quite forgiven him for it, and I certainly don't trust him to get me drinks.

The_Gatsby

Excedion wrote: »

Friend was nearly spiked by a lad offering him to down a pint for a fiver. He went to do it and there was an LSD stamp at the bottom of the glass. Needless to say that offer was quickly rejected.

As for date-rape drunks or their ilk havent seen it. To be honest the only time I've seen peoples drinks getting spiked was with laxatives.

I don't understand stories like this. Why would somebody waste some good LSD and pay you €5 for the pleasure? Doesn't make sense to me

MadsL

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I can taste a vodka in a beer and I don't need to test this again. 4 shots and 4 pints is not enough to get acute alcohol poisoning IMHO either. Nothing you have said has expanded on your claims repeating them won't make me believe you.

You can taste it. I did not.

People are different.

Do I have to explain this? Alchohol does not have a consistent effect, even on the same person - a relatively small amount can put the body into toxic shock; couple that with an eight-hour kitchen shift in a hot kitchen, likely dehydrated and without food (I don't remember what I ate that night) and it makes a lot more sense.

I also never quantified the amount. As I was spiked I have no idea what or what quantity was put in my drinks.

Two people above me now have responsed with similar experiences.

I find it pretty arrogant that you presume to know 'better'.

Ray Palmer

MadsL wrote: »

I find it pretty arrogant that you presume to know 'better'.

OK you convinced me now, wait no you haven't I don't believe you.:p

Odysseus

Have people been spiked at some stage, I am sure. Here is a list of the reasons why I don't buy into the sex offender doing this and it being a regular or semi regular event in Ireland.

Of the all the drug users I have worked with I know of none who have spiked some with drugs to sexually violate them.
Of the many victims of sexual violence I have worked with I know of none who where someone was spiked in order to facilitate their attack.
Of the good few sex offenders I have worked with I know of none who used this method.
I used to work with someone who also worked in the forsenic side of things, one of the clinics where those who are attacked are examined, he had not experienced it up to that point. He was working there for a number of years when I last spoke to him about it.
AFAIK both a few bodies that deal with sexual violence have issued statement that they have not seen this, but this is a few years old.

I know of men increasing the alcohol content of a girls drink, getting a double instead of a single etc, often decribed as "a few leg-openers". Something that is not too uncommon in my experience. The extent of it varies, i.e. how much extra alcohol and I don't think force would be used in most cases. Not that it makes it acceptable but it is often considered as not a big deal and due to the lack of force is seen more as manipulation by those who engage in it.

I know of drug users spiking other drug users, or non-users in that group with drugs like LSD. Not that common in my experience, but it does happen.

I am sure that people have experienced sexually violence after being spiked, but it seems to me that it is very rare. I would see the my drink was spike in terms of a date rape attemp as mostly a myth in Ireland. You can never rule it out, but I have yet to see a real case tested and show to be correct. I am only referring to actual drugs here not alcohol.

Anyway that is my view and experience to date.

MadsL

Ray Palmer wrote: »

OK you convinced me now, wait no you haven't I don't believe you.:p

And that is about the sum total of your argument.

As I said previously the skin on my nose remains intact if you believe me or not.

locum-motion

Freddy Smelly wrote: »

i got spiked once with rohypnol in sligo back in 1998...

How do you know?

Freddy Smelly wrote: »

...was very sick for a few days

'Sick' in what way?

tdv123

locum-motion wrote: »

How do you know?



'Sick' in what way?

I wouldn't waste a good benzo on anybody no matter how fit they are.

Just for the record Rohypnol shouldn't make you sick for days unless your allergic to benzodiazepines or something. Which I've never heard of anybody being.

Grand Moff Tarkin

Mostly just an excuse to cover up the fact when someone has had to much to drink and they are ashamed to admit it.

locum-motion

tdv123 wrote: »

I wouldn't waste a good benzo on anybody no matter how fit they are.

That's one of the points I was trying to make.

tdv123 wrote: »

Just for the record Rohypnol shouldn't make you sick for days unless your allergic to benzodiazepines or something. Which I've never heard of anybody being.

That's why I asked.