Court rules in favour of Waterford Crystal workers

deise blue

Curly Judge wrote: »

What degree of leverage will the workers expect based on their contributions?
I feel that a pound for pound contribution by the taxpayer - viz a vie what was deducted from the workers down the years - together with a modest rate of interest should be more than enough and that any grandiose expectations of enhanced "entitlements" should be knocked on the head straight off.

The High court will decide on the % payable to the workers effected - it will be at least 49% but hopefully closer to the 90% precedentially set in the UK 2007 case taken along the same lines as the Glass case - such percentages will be the parameters under which the High Court will reach their decision , it should also be borne in mind that if the union/workers are unhappy with the High Court ruling then they can appeal to the ECJ presumably by appealing matters initially through our Supreme Court , there is also the question of the massive amount that will become due in terms of backdating pensions.

The proposal as set out by you is not a runner as such a suggestion falls outside the bailiwick of the High Court in this case.

Bards

I wonder will it have any bearing on the private pension levy. I.E value of my pension is being eroded by an illegal act of the govt. taxing the capital by way of levy, therefore i am not gaining the full value of my pension to which i paid.

Interesting times indeed.

Dicky Pride

Usually, Enda Kenny has a smug, almost oblivious simper across his face...in this video he looks a tad pissed off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_8eyFZ7s5Y

In addition to paying up to 58% in tax, Waterford Crystal workers contributed MASSIVELY, without argument to, local charities and worthwhile causes. I could list a dozen that I know of personally right now. Institutions that wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the contributions of those 1500 people. And they contributed to their own pensions. This is their money. Money that should be waiting for them upon retirement, and they are being forced to fight for it.

Generally without fail, the Irish government will implement all
directives that come from the EU...unless it involves them putting their hands in their pockets. Eamon Gilmore, before he was elected into government, told the Waterford Crystal workers that he would "fight tooth and nail" for their pensions. Once elected, he did nothing. No surprises there.

When Carol Robbins won her case against the British government in 2007 the EU changed how governments should handle their people's pensions. The Irish Government chose to ignore those directions and thanks to Thomas Hogan, John Burns, John Dooley, Alfred Ryan, Michael Cunningham, Michael Dooley, Denis Hayes, Marion Walsh, Joan Power, Walter Walsh and Jimmy Kelly and others at UNITE, they are now being forced to account for their actions.

Anyone who begrudges these workers their money, should be ashamed of themselves.

fuzzy dunlop

Curly Judge wrote: »

What degree of leverage will the workers expect based on their contributions?
I feel that a pound for pound contribution by the taxpayer - viz a vie what was deducted from the workers down the years - together with a modest rate of interest should be more than enough and that any grandiose expectations of enhanced "entitlements" should be knocked on the head straight off.

What you feel doesn't really matter. That is why we have judges to arbitrate within the EU law that " the state"signed up to. Is it fair that the taxpayer ultimately pays? Yes it is. The state has responsibilities so does the taxpayer through the state and vice versa.

Curly Judge

7upfree wrote: »

Most certainly defined benefit. The Government were - allegedly - overseeing these schemes to ensure compliance. They didn't. They're liable.

We have watched those banksters and developers get one thing after another - to which they were never entitled - since 2008.

This is a victory for normal, decent, hardworking people. At last.

It would be a victory if bankers and the people who spent their pension money on other adventures were the ones who now had to cough up.
It would be a victory civil servants and politicians who fell down on the job had to forego their own pensions.
To call this a victory is a strange use of language.
I don't feel particularly victorious this evening knowing that I'm probably facing another levy to pay for it all.

fuzzy dunlop

Curly Judge wrote: »

It would be a victory if bankers and the people who spent their pension money on other adventures were the ones who now had to cough up.
It would be a victory civil servants and politicians who fell down on the job had to forego their own pensions.
To call this a victory is a strange use of language.
I don't feel particularly victorious this evening knowing that I'm probably facing another levy to pay for it all.

You are just coming across as resentful. If justice depended on justice happening somewhere else first then there would be none at all. This is one of the few cases where the ordinary workers are getting some sort of break that is entirely within the law.. And you are against it.Odd to say the least.

chainsawman

I am disappointed with negative comments, I worked there for over 30 years and paid the pension contributions of over €50 a week. And tells me we are not entitled to it. Anyway, Thanks to all who congratulates us Crystal workers. Victory to the former crystal workers. And to the Unite Unions for their marvellous job.

ex_infantry

the government were given plenty of opportunity to save waterford crystal at the time but chose to do nothing just like they did with bell lines and let yet another industry to leave waterford without jobs

Curly Judge

chainsawman wrote: »

I am disappointed with negative comments, I worked there for over 30 years and paid the pension contributions of over €50 a week. And tells me we are not entitled to it. Anyway, Thanks to all who congratulates us Crystal workers. Victory to the former crystal workers. And to the Unite Unions for their marvellous job.

Being very generous, I'll allow that you paid in 78,000 over the thirty years you were privileged to work there.
At today's rates that pot would probable qualify you for a pension of about 100 euro per week. Will you be happy with that or do you expect me and other taxpayers to top it up to your "entitlement"?
The Unite union did a wonderful job in boosting your wages to 2,200 for a 39 hour week and negotiating severance payments of 121,000 for someone with 25 years service.
In the end the factory closed.
I wonder why?

deise blue

You really are going to swallow what is obviously a very bitter pill for you given that your own private pension has been decimated through no fault of your own.

The ECJ ruled that the State were obviously in breach of the 2008 insolvency directive - if the State had legislated as they should have then this thread would be moot.

There is no point in directing your ire at the workers or the Union.

chainsawman

Curly Judge wrote: »

Being very generous, I'll allow that you paid in 78,000 over the thirty years you were privileged to work there.
At today's rates that pot would probable qualify you for a pension of about 100 euro per week. Will you be happy with that or do you expect me and other taxpayers to top it up to your "entitlement"?
The Unite union did a wonderful job in boosting your wages to 2,200 for a 39 hour week and negotiating severance payments of 121,000 for someone with 25 years service.
In the end the factory closed.
I wonder why?

Can you read my earlier post properly ? I said over €50 a week... That means anything up to €100.. I dont want you to know my business... Dont be blaming the Unite.

Curly Judge

chainsawman wrote: »

Can you read my earlier post properly ? I said over €50 a week... That means anything up to €100.. I dont want you to know my business... Dont be blaming the Unite.

An interesting mathematical concept!
Are you sure you weren't the accountant in charge of the pension fund?

chainsawman

Curly Judge wrote: »

An interesting mathematical concept!
Are you sure you weren't the accountant in charge of the pension fund?

Are you taking me for a fun ??? Are you laughing at me losing my job over 30 years in Waterford Glass ?? Do you find that funny Calling me an Accountant while i was a factory worker or a craftsman ? You have really making me upset this time..

deise blue

chainsawman wrote: »

Are you taking me for a fun ??? Are you laughing at me losing my job over 30 years in Waterford Glass ?? Do you find that funny Calling me an Accountant while i was a factory worker or a craftsman ? You have really making me upset this time..

Ignore him , he's flogging a beaten docket .

He is refusing to accept the tenor of today's ruling , his attitude is made worse because his own private pension has been decimated but effectively he is furious because he is well aware his views do not matter .

If it's any consolation I , my family & wider acquaintances are delighted for ye all.

chainsawman

deise blue wrote: »

Ignore him , he's flogging a beaten docket .

He is refusing to accept the tenor of today's ruling , his attitude is made worse because his own private pension has been decimated but effectively he is furious because he is well aware his views do not matter .

If it's any consolation I , my family & wider acquaintances are delighted for ye all.

Thanks boy... Much obliged for your kind words.

Curly Judge

chainsawman wrote: »

Are you taking me for a fun ??? Are you laughing at me losing my job over 30 years in Waterford Glass ?? Do you find that funny Calling me an Accountant while i was a factory worker or a craftsman ? You have really making me upset this time..

Well, which was it, a factory worker or a craftsman?
You'r not making sense!

Hoffmans

same thing happened the bell lines workers years ago and they got nothing at all......fair play for taking the fight to europe...

Curly Judge

deise blue wrote: »

Ignore him , he's flogging a beaten docket .

He is refusing to accept the tenor of today's ruling , his attitude is made worse because his own private pension has been decimated but effectively he is furious because he is well aware his views do not matter .

If it's any consolation I , my family & wider acquaintances are delighted for ye all.

The tenor of today's ruling is that I and other taxpayers will have to finance the gold plated pensions magicked into existence by the workers in Waterford Crystal. How did your new found buddy chainsawman imagine that a contribution of 78,000 over his working life would evolve into a weekly pension of 880 euro?
The tooth fairy would have a hard job selling that one, yet his wonderful union, Unite, seems to have bought it hook, line and sinker.
The only place lunacy like that pertains now-a days is in some parts of the public service and even there the penny is [slowly] beginning to drop.
I think I'm being very generous offering him and his 1,500 co-workers their contributions back and that is going to cost us all 117 million at the very least.
Let's give them their money back and they can go and buy a pension in the real world.

deise blue

Your " generosity " is not required nor do your embittered views count for anything.

Talking about the " real world " the ECJ ruled that the State were guilty of being in serious breach of the 2008 insolvency directive & the High Court will now decide on the % payable to the Glass workers - those are the facts , the alternatives preferred by yourself are illusory .

Now I know that your private pension has been decimated & I have every sympathy for you but the reality is that the High Court will now adjudicate & your views & indeed mine will not matter a damn - particularly yours !

chainsawman

Curly Judge wrote: »

Well, which was it, a factory worker or a craftsman?
You'r not making sense!

Seems like you are only a keyboard warrior ? I can have a chat over a cup of coffee/tea with you anywhere anytime to discuss this matter ? What ya think boy ?

Max Powers

I think it was a great victory for those people who's pensions were screwed over. It was also good as i think the realisation is slowly starting to happen that the countrys pension system is a mess and needs serious reorganisation. The government are being forced to stand up and take notice. DB pension schemes should probably never happen again. It will mean more pain for most of us.

there is some merit in what people like carly judge is saying, we wont be too happy about situation when they add another levy onto YOUR pension to pay for this and the inevitable other cases that will arise. You cant really argue with that. I think we are all happy to see people who were wronged, get some form of correction where they were wronged.

tbayers

I am delighted the former Crystal workers won. Waterford Crystal is famous throughout the world. I should know, im traveling at the moment and the mere mention of Waterford is shortly followed by "Crystal??". Its only a few million apparently that will be paid out so I for one wont mind paying a few extra cent on my wage packet when I return.

Anybody begrudging this ruling is just pure resentful and probably jealous. Delighted for every single worker there, hope they get every penny they deserve!!

Oh and I have an idea, get rid of some of those higher paid wasters in the public sector in their secure jobs!!

Curly Judge

Max Powers wrote: »

I think it was a great victory for those people who's pensions were screwed over. It was also good as i think the realisation is slowly starting to happen that the countrys pension system is a mess and needs serious reorganisation. The government are being forced to stand up and take notice. DB pension schemes should probably never happen again. It will mean more pain for most of us.

there is some merit in what people like carly judge is saying, we wont be too happy about situation when they add another levy onto YOUR pension to pay for this and the inevitable other cases that will arise. You cant really argue with that. I think we are all happy to see people who were wronged, get some form of correction where they were wronged.

Reasonable enough!
It's just that I feel the role of government is to put a floor under people so that they don't fall too deeply into the mire.

Not to bale them out when their private little Ponzi scheme collapses!

Won't one of these workers look sweet when they next attend a wedding or a christening with their 880 euro per week pension provided by the taxpayer and find themselves sitting across from someone on the dole on 188 euro per week.
Worse still if they are at the same table as self employed person whose business has collapsed and who is expected to live on nothing.

Won't they look sweet?

hardybuck

Mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, it's unacceptable that Waterford Crystal workers, or anyone else for that matter, to lose out on so much of their pension. The Government, employers and unions need to try and establish a framework which will ensure better protection for workers.

On the other hand, the floodgates have now opened. This is likely to be the first of many cases, as we are facing a pensions crisis ahead.

The test case was taken by a UK worker involved in her getting 90% of her pension. If every worker is going to get that level of payout, then we're all going to have to cough up big time.

All these pension schemes work on the basis that the older workers take the money first as they come to retirement. When they drain the well the younger workers are badly exposed. As someone with decades ahead of me before retirement, the prospects of getting screwed over are pretty high.

Curly Judge

tbayers wrote: »

I am delighted the former Crystal workers won. Waterford Crystal is famous throughout the world. I should know, im traveling at the moment and the mere mention of Waterford is shortly followed by "Crystal??". Its only a few million apparently that will be paid out so I for one wont mind paying a few extra cent on my wage packet when I return.

Anybody begrudging this ruling is just pure resentful and probably jealous. Delighted for every single worker there, hope they get every penny they deserve!!

Oh and I have an idea, get rid of some of those higher paid wasters in the public sector in their secure jobs!!

So .... anybody who questions the perceived and received wisdom of the trade unions and the European Court is seething with resentment and envy?
I wish you wouldn't ascribe motives or sentiments to me that I neither possess or feel.
By the way, when will you be back in the country earning a taxable wage here so that we can all benefit from your largesse?

daenerysstormborn3

I don't understand why the Waterford Crystal workers should be punished for the mistakes of the government. Wouldn't you want what you're entitled to if you were in that position?

Curly Judge

hardybuck wrote: »

Mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, it's unacceptable that Waterford Crystal workers, or anyone else for that matter, to lose out on so much of their pension. The Government, employers and unions need to try and establish a framework which will ensure better protection for workers.

On the other hand, the floodgates have now opened. This is likely to be the first of many cases, as we are facing a pensions crisis ahead.

The test case was taken by a UK worker involved in her getting 90% of her pension. If every worker is going to get that level of payout, then we're all going to have to cough up big time.

All these pension schemes work on the basis that the older workers take the money first as they come to retirement. When they drain the well the younger workers are badly exposed. As someone with decades ahead of me before retirement, the prospects of getting screwed over are pretty high.

This is part of the problem in at least one semi state company that I'm aware of.
Middle management guys getting themselves bumped up the ladder to higher posts shortly before retirement - with higher entitlements - and so draining the pool at the expense of younger subscribers.
The only way to be fair about this is to have a pension based on an individuals contributions with a realistic multiplier and not some delicate plant force fed by unrealistic trade union aspirations.

Curly Judge

pixiebean22 wrote: »

I don't understand why the Waterford Crystal workers should be punished for the mistakes of the government. Wouldn't you want what you're entitled to if you were in that position?

It was a scandal that these workers were left without any pension.
I have said that all along and not only on this thread.
It's a far cry from saying that to welcoming the government's new found obligation to bankroll unrealistic gold plated pensions.
This is why I contend the taxpayer should only fund the more modest defined contribution pension.

tbayers

Won't one of these workers look sweet when they next attend a wedding or a christening with their 880 euro per week pension provided by the taxpayer and find themselves sitting across from someone on the dole on 188 euro per week.
Worse still if they are at the same table as self employed person whose business has collapsed and who is expected to live on nothing.

Won't they look sweet?

Em they deserve all the money they get, they paid into their pensions! im sure they struggled in the years gone by. Also, if you go into the sector of owning your own business, are you telling me that they don't know the consequences if they fail, its a decision they make!

You sound like that you are trying to say that they are not entitled to it??

So .... anybody who questions the perceived and received wisdom of the trade unions and the European Court is seething with resentment and envy?
I wish you wouldn't ascribe motives or sentiments to me that I neither possess or feel.
By the way, when will you be back in the country earning a taxable wage here so that we can all benefit from your largesse?

No, I said that ye seem resentful and jealous of the workers getting there deserved money. I said nothing about the decision, im just happy for the workers, the way it happened I am sure they don't care!

And excuse me do you know me at all?? I worked extremely hard the last four years in college and in between those I worked even harder paying my fees. Just because I worked after after I finished college for a few months doesn't mean I am not allowed go and sample the world!!The only money given generously to me was from the employer that hired me!! And il be back in the country soon to start working again!

Curly Judge

chainsawman wrote: »

Seems like you are only a keyboard warrior ? I can have a chat over a cup of coffee/tea with you anywhere anytime to discuss this matter ? What ya think boy ?

No bother at all!
Will you be buying?....boy.