Court rules in favour of Waterford Crystal workers

Curly Judge

The Bowling Alley wrote: »

They paid into a pension, it's their money. I don't understand the 'greedy' insinuation.

They paid into their defined benefit pension a fraction of what they are now looking for.
Some of them think they are entitled to a pension of 840 euro per week.
They, the company and their union failed to keep their eye on the ball or on the pension fund and when the company went wallop there was nothing in the kitty.
The union, who were so busy running the company into the sand at every possible opportunity, then set about covering their incompetent arses by taking the state to court, knowing full well that there was no one else only the taxpayer to pick up the tab.
Give them back what they paid in, plus a reasonable interest, and let them invest it in a retirement plan.
Pay them the old age pension and then tax the lot like every other person in the state with a combined private and public pension.

Deise67

Curly Judge wrote: »

They paid into their defined benefit pension a fraction of what they are now looking for.
Some of them think they are entitled to a pension of 840 euro per week.
They, the company and their union failed to keep their eye on the ball or on the pension fund and when the company went wallop there was nothing in the kitty.
The union, who were so busy running the company into the sand at every possible opportunity, then set about covering their incompetent arses by taking the state to court, knowing full well that there was no one else only the taxpayer to pick up the tab.
Give them back what they paid in, plus a reasonable interest, and let them invest it in a retirement plan.
Pay them the old age pension and then tax the lot like every other person in the state with a combined private and public pension.

you seem to be very knowledge about all aspects of the rise & fall of Waterford crystal ? also all the financial aspects of the pension fund , perhaps you'd like to drop out next Saturday and offer your advice on suitable schemes ? I'm sure your contribution would be greatly appreciated.

robtri

The Bowling Alley wrote: »

They paid into a pension, it's their money. I don't understand the 'greedy' insinuation.

your right they did pay into a pension fund, but the company fcuked it up...
and the unions didnt pay enough attention to safe gaurd the workers...
now they want the government, which means the usual tax payers to stump up money for them....
its a disgrace what happened to them and they have my sympathies.... but why the Fcuk should i have to help pay for them to get lovely wgaes... while me and other tax payers struggle to pay our bills....

sorry for anyone in Waterford crystal but this is crazy that everyone else has to pay for them....
this is exactly whats wrong with this country.... this sense of entitlement...

Deise67

robtri wrote: »

your right they did pay into a pension fund, but the company fcuked it up...
and the unions didnt pay enough attention to safe gaurd the workers...
now they want the government, which means the usual tax payers to stump up money for them....
its a disgrace what happened to them and they have my sympathies.... but why the Fcuk should i have to help pay for them to get lovely wgaes... while me and other tax payers struggle to pay our bills....

sorry for anyone in Waterford crystal but this is crazy that everyone else has to pay for them....
this is exactly whats wrong with this country.... this sense of entitlement...

signed up to a European directive and never implemented it ! its legally binding , they lost the case. why should wc works not be paid when similar workers have been paid ? you can't cherry pick the bits that suit you when agreeing to be part of a club ( eu)

robtri

Deise67 wrote: »

signed up to a European directive and never implemented it ! its legally binding , they lost the case. why should wc works not be paid when similar workers have been paid ? you can't cherry pick the bits that suit you when agreeing to be part of a club ( eu)

i agree, why should they be out of pocket....
but why should I be paying for it and many more like me... when I struggle to make ends meet every week...
sorry but it was WC pension, they should have monitored there pension in conjunction with union... they have a responsibility as well.

Deise67

robtri wrote: »

i agree, why should they be out of pocket....
but why should I be paying for it and many more like me... when I struggle to make ends meet every week...
sorry but it was WC pension, they should have monitored there pension in conjunction with union... they have a responsibility as well.

the point of the directive was it could be any private sector worker not just WC , workers do not pay into a pension fund on speculative basis unlike bondholders ! these were Irish workers who paid in good faith into a fund which in hindsight was effectively a pyramid scheme ! WC met the conditions of the directive both company & fund insolvent. its far from the biggest payout since the crash in Ireland, people portraiting this has some sort of bonanza payout are talking through their h*** also the notion that this is worth 100 million to local economy , people can live 20 years beyond retirement age ! that's what this money is about !

deise blue

Curly Judge wrote: »

No chip on my shoulder at all.
I'll be able to paddle my own canoe no matter what happens.
It's just the greedy injustice of it all!

Rubbish , your own pension scheme tanked & due to FF failing to legislate for a pension protection scheme & your own personal envy you chose to somehow blame the Glass workers .

On the bright side your views , thankfully , have been rendered redundant & the majority of posters here simply feel that your views are worthless .

Talk soon when the details of the negotiated terms are published.

robtri

Deise67 wrote: »

the point of the directive was it could be any private sector worker not just WC , workers do not pay into a pension fund on speculative basis unlike bondholders ! these were Irish workers who paid in good faith into a fund which in hindsight was effectively a pyramid scheme ! WC met the conditions of the directive both company & fund insolvent. its far from the biggest payout since the crash in Ireland, people portraiting this has some sort of bonanza payout are talking through their h*** also the notion that this is worth 100 million to local economy , people can live 20 years beyond retirement age ! that's what this money is about !

ehhhh yes you do pay into a pension fund on a speculative basis...
pensions funds payouts are based on the performance of the fund....

as i said I feel for the WC workers, really do...
but why should I pay for them to be sorted while I struggle...

Deise67

robtri wrote: »

ehhhh yes you do pay into a pension fund on a speculative basis...
pensions funds payouts are based on the performance of the fund....

as i said I feel for the WC workers, really do...
but why should I pay for them to be sorted while I struggle...

it was a DB fund not a DC fund .

deise blue

robtri wrote: »

ehhhh yes you do pay into a pension fund on a speculative basis...
pensions funds payouts are based on the performance of the fund....

as i said I feel for the WC workers, really do...
but why should I pay for them to be sorted while I struggle...

Could I suggest that you take that up with FF who failed to legislate for a pension protection scheme as required by EU legislation .

The European Court ruled that the State failed in it's duty to the Glass pensioners & as such any views to the contrary are simply pointless & as Deise67 has pointed out it was a DB fund.

TheQuietFella

deise blue wrote: »

Could I suggest that you take that up with FF who failed to legislate for a pension protection scheme as required by EU legislation .

The European Court ruled that the State failed in it's duty to the Glass pensioners & as such any views to the contrary are simply pointless & as Deise67 has pointed out it was a DB fund.

I really wouldn't be bothered arguing the toss here DB. People don't know or probably don't want to know the story behind it!

Protective legislation was never drafted by the then government as it was in the UK & its not the union, company or workers fault. It's the result of gross complacency or mismanagement of a Government who didn't see the Tiger becoming a Pussy Cat. It's still no different today & it will be the same with DAA pensions & a host of many more for the next few decades.

We truly are a group of inept Paddies. Don't ANYONE mention to me the story of Irish History & our relationship with the UK because as I see it, your own are as often as worse!

Curly Judge

Deise67 wrote: »

it was a DB fund not a DC fund .

For Defined Benefit pension read unrealistic stupid ponzi scheme.
A scheme pushed for by the unions who are now howling blue murder when it collapsed, as it was bound to do.
Because the EU have ruled against the state I realize that I will have to put my hand in my pocket to finance the lifestyle of workers who thought they were masters of the universe when they had the ball at their foot and now have the chutzpah to come begging to the likes of me who could never afford any of their overpriced shyte.
It may be inevitable and there may be nothing I can do to stop it but, by Christ I'll do everything in my power to highlight the injustice of it.

Deise67

Curly Judge wrote: »

For Defined Benefit pension read unrealistic stupid ponzi scheme.
A scheme pushed for by the unions who are now howling blue murder when it collapsed, as it was bound to do.
Because the EU have ruled against the state I realize that I will have to put my hand in my pocket to finance the lifestyle of workers who thought they were masters of the universe when they had the ball at their foot and now have the chutzpah to come begging to the likes of me who could never afford any of their overpriced shyte.
It may be inevitable and there may be nothing I can do to stop it but, by Christ I'll do everything in my power to highlight the injustice of it.

just curious is it this particular "injustice" or do you get on your high horse about all the other "injustices" that you perceive ?
did you fail an aptitude test for WC ? its happening I suggest u build a bridge and get over it ! move on to your next "injustice" you might have more luck !

Max Powers

doesnt seem fair that tax payer has to fork out but that is the law, hopefully it will mean better regulation of pensions. Defined benefit will not be around in a few years anyway i reckon. All credit to the campaigners, long battle, hopefully they will get their money before christmas and hopefully they will spend it in local economy too.

lassykk

I don't know the full facts of this situation but let me start by saying that this deal affects my extended family and would have affected my immediate family had life worked out differently. Despite this I wouldn't consider myself overly biased in favour of the WC workers.

I don't know the terms of the agreement but I assume it isn't as much as they would have gotten if the DB scheme had been fully funded through the company and through their own contributions (open to correction on this)

It would be interesting to know if the WC workers, when signing up to the pension contract all those years ago (if they did in fact have to sign up) noticed if there was a clause in the contract around what happens if the pension scheme is in a deficit? I assume it was something like the company would make up the shortfall, etc.

If so, then there is no reason for any negativity aimed at the WC workers. There is an EU directive to cover this which we didn't enact here in Ireland until now so why aim any anger at the WC workers about this.

If however the pension contract stated that they could lose out on their pension if x, y or z happened (such as a stock market crash / company folding) then I don't think anyone should be footing the bill for what would have been a gamble on the employees part (the same way my DC pension is a gamble on my part).

The full facts of the situation aren't overly clear and without those I don't think it's fair to be casting aspersions on the WC workers or their supposed lifestyle in the past.

It is fair however to disagree with the EU directive that means we, as taxpayers, have to supplement DB pension funds that are massively in arrears.

ec18

Pardon my ignorance If i'm incorrect on this, but didn't the union give WC permission to use some of the pension fund to support/prop up the company?

7upfree

Curly Judge wrote: »

For Defined Benefit pension read unrealistic stupid ponzi scheme.
A scheme pushed for by the unions who are now howling blue murder when it collapsed, as it was bound to do.
Because the EU have ruled against the state I realize that I will have to put my hand in my pocket to finance the lifestyle of workers who thought they were masters of the universe when they had the ball at their foot and now have the chutzpah to come begging to the likes of me who could never afford any of their overpriced shyte.
It may be inevitable and there may be nothing I can do to stop it but, by Christ I'll do everything in my power to highlight the injustice of it.

Blah blah blah. Begrudgery at its worst really. it's over. Good luck to them. Given what has happened in this country it is a trifling amount, but, more importantly, a decision which will secure the pensions of workers for years to come.

7upfree

Deise67 wrote: »

the point of the directive was it could be any private sector worker not just WC , workers do not pay into a pension fund on speculative basis unlike bondholders ! these were Irish workers who paid in good faith into a fund which in hindsight was effectively a pyramid scheme ! WC met the conditions of the directive both company & fund insolvent. its far from the biggest payout since the crash in Ireland, people portraiting this has some sort of bonanza payout are talking through their h*** also the notion that this is worth 100 million to local economy , people can live 20 years beyond retirement age ! that's what this money is about !

This is what people are overlooking. As I said above the ramifications are enormous and workers, both now and in the future, will thank the Crystal workers for their perseverance.

Gael23

How much of a pension will they get?

Curly Judge

ryanf1 wrote: »

How much of a pension will they get?

178 million of taxpayers money.
A sort of super duper St. Vincent de Paul.
I hope their Christmas turkey tastes nice because it is us turkeys that will be paying for it.

deise blue

Curly Judge wrote: »

178 million of taxpayers money.
A sort of super duper St. Vincent de Paul.
I hope their Christmas turkey tastes nice because it is us turkeys that will be paying for it.

Your bitterness & begrudery simply makes this victory for the courage & perseverance of the Glass Workers & the Unite Trade Union all the sweeter - thanks

I presume you're posting this from the rooftops !

Curly Judge

deise blue wrote: »

Your bitterness & begrudery simply makes this victory for the courage & perseverance of the Glass Workers & the Unite Trade Union all the sweeter - thanks

I presume you're posting this from the rooftops !

No.... from my iphone.
Which I bought with my own money.
When will the WC workers next be able to claim that they have bought anything with their own money?

thomasm

ryanf1 wrote: »

How much of a pension will they get?

More than 1,770 former Waterford Crystal workers are to benefit from a €178m Government bailout by way of pension payments, Tanaiste Joan Burton has announced.

The plan, approved by the Cabinet today, will see the former workers receive €40m in lump sum payments before the end of March.
Ms Burton said 1,774 former workers will €1,200 for every year of pensionable service with the company which collapsed in 2009.
UNITE has confirmed it is recommending a ‘yes’ vote on the deal.
The settlement means:
•A tax-free lump sum for deferred members of the Waterford Crystal schemes of €1,200 per year of service.
and
•Workers with pensions under €12,000 will get 90pc of their pension.
•Workers with pensions between €12,000 and €24,000 will get 90pc of €12,000 plus 67pc of remaining benefit between €12,001 and €24,000.
•Workers with pensions in excess of €24,000 will receive 90pc of €12,000, 67pc of benefit between €12,001 and €24,000 and 50pc of any benefit above €24,000.


Minister for Social Protection, Joan Burton, said the deal was a “legacy” she inherited from the previous government.
She said the deal would be funded by a two-year levy paid by members of defined benefit schemes, introduced in the 2013 budget.
“I appointed Kieran Mulvey a month ago to act as a mediator and am happy to say that rather than a prolonged journey through various courts at Irish and European level, we now have a medicated settlement,” she said.
She said it was a rare event for the company to collapse as well as the pension fund.
The deal is the culmination of a mediated process, chaired by Kieran Mulvey of the Labour Relations Commission, after former workers took a legal case to the European Court, which found in their favour.
"The workers took a case ultimately to the European Court, and today's announcement which is based on a significant period of very detailed negotiation carried out at my request. I hope this is a good day for the workers and for the city of Waterford. The alternative was for both sides to return to the courts and I was anxious to have a mediated process," Ms Burton said.
It has been confirmed that the deal will now have to be formally approved by the former workers and an amendment to the Social Welfare Bill is being made to facilitate the payments.
It has also emerged that families of deceased workers will also benefit from today's announcement.
Asked about the potential exposure to the taxpayer of future similar claims, Ms Burton said what happened in Waterford was very rare.
"This arose out of completely unique situation. Waterford Glass and Crystal was the iconic industry in the South East. This double insolvency has been relatively rare. When the case was taken, it was in the context of Ireland being in breach of a directive in relation to insolvency," she said.
"The workers won the case, on all grounds. We enacted legislation to bring Irish law into line with the European directive in relation to pensions. This unfortunate situation, I hope is never repeated," she added.
Ms Burton said the money to pay for the bailout will be met by a "charge of the Government's Central Fund."
The Tanaiste added said the deal has been agreed to by the Minister for Finance Michael Noonan and the Social Welfare Bill will be completed before Christmas to make way for payments to workers in the New Year on completion of all the technical details.
Waterford Government members - Junior Minister Paudie Coffey, Labour TD Ciara Conway and Senator Maurice Cummins - all welcomed the deal's announcement saying it is a good day for Waterford.

Gael23

Does this also apply to workers that have not yet reached pension age?

deise blue

Curly Judge wrote: »

No.... from my iphone.
Which I bought with my own money.
When will the WC workers next be able to claim that they have bought anything with their own money?

I would presume that the champagne that is flowing freely now is being bought with their own money , after all they have yet to vote as to whether they will accept the current offer

Do please keep posting your unbalanced invective , it simply sweetens the pot !

In my case - I'm off , the victory has been won , there is no point hanging around to see the battered remnants of the opposition .

thomasm

Good day for the town, 1770 people getting lump sums and regular income after that. Depending on the level of pensions that could be the same as 400-500 new jobs in terms of available spending power, maybe more when you factor in age and potential decreased debt burdens(i.e no celtic tiger mortgages)

Curly Judge

thomasm wrote: »

More than 1,770 former Waterford Crystal workers are to benefit from a €178m Government bailout by way of pension payments, Tanaiste Joan Burton has announced.

The plan, approved by the Cabinet today, will see the former workers receive €40m in lump sum payments before the end of March.
Ms Burton said 1,774 former workers will €1,200 for every year of pensionable service with the company which collapsed in 2009.
UNITE has confirmed it is recommending a ‘yes’ vote on the deal.
The settlement means:
•A tax-free lump sum for deferred members of the Waterford Crystal schemes of €1,200 per year of service.
and
•Workers with pensions under €12,000 will get 90pc of their pension.
•Workers with pensions between €12,000 and €24,000 will get 90pc of €12,000 plus 67pc of remaining benefit between €12,001 and €24,000.
•Workers with pensions in excess of €24,000 will receive 90pc of €12,000, 67pc of benefit between €12,001 and €24,000 and 50pc of any benefit above €24,000.


Minister for Social Protection, Joan Burton, said the deal was a “legacy” she inherited from the previous government.
She said the deal would be funded by a two-year levy paid by members of defined benefit schemes, introduced in the 2013 budget.
“I appointed Kieran Mulvey a month ago to act as a mediator and am happy to say that rather than a prolonged journey through various courts at Irish and European level, we now have a medicated settlement,” she said.
She said it was a rare event for the company to collapse as well as the pension fund.
The deal is the culmination of a mediated process, chaired by Kieran Mulvey of the Labour Relations Commission, after former workers took a legal case to the European Court, which found in their favour.
"The workers took a case ultimately to the European Court, and today's announcement which is based on a significant period of very detailed negotiation carried out at my request. I hope this is a good day for the workers and for the city of Waterford. The alternative was for both sides to return to the courts and I was anxious to have a mediated process," Ms Burton said.
It has been confirmed that the deal will now have to be formally approved by the former workers and an amendment to the Social Welfare Bill is being made to facilitate the payments.
It has also emerged that families of deceased workers will also benefit from today's announcement.
Asked about the potential exposure to the taxpayer of future similar claims, Ms Burton said what happened in Waterford was very rare.
"This arose out of completely unique situation. Waterford Glass and Crystal was the iconic industry in the South East. This double insolvency has been relatively rare. When the case was taken, it was in the context of Ireland being in breach of a directive in relation to insolvency," she said.
"The workers won the case, on all grounds. We enacted legislation to bring Irish law into line with the European directive in relation to pensions. This unfortunate situation, I hope is never repeated," she added.
Ms Burton said the money to pay for the bailout will be met by a "charge of the Government's Central Fund."
The Tanaiste added said the deal has been agreed to by the Minister for Finance Michael Noonan and the Social Welfare Bill will be completed before Christmas to make way for payments to workers in the New Year on completion of all the technical details.
Waterford Government members - Junior Minister Paudie Coffey, Labour TD Ciara Conway and Senator Maurice Cummins - all welcomed the deal's announcement saying it is a good day for Waterford.

A good day for Waterford but a bad day for the rest of the country.

fricatus

Curly Judge wrote: »

No.... from my iphone.
Which I bought with my own money.
When will the WC workers next be able to claim that they have bought anything with their own money?

By your logic, if I had €50,000 in the bank, and the bank went bust, and I got my money back because the government guarantee kicked in, then somehow that €50,000 would no longer be my own money? What should I do? Hand it back with a sheepish look on my face?

These pensions are the property of the workers by dint of their employment contracts. If it hadn't been in their contract, no doubt many of them would have taken on a private pension of their own. They didn't, because they had an employment contract which included it, and spent many years working under this understanding. The fact that the pension and the company went belly-up is not their fault. They kept their side of the bargain, and it is right that the government now steps in and guarantees their entitlement.

This is why we have a system of government and pay our taxes - so that people who fall on hard times have social welfare, housing, etc., and so that anyone who has a company pension or a small savings pot in the bank will not lose out through misfortune if someone else fails to manage the money prudently.

Remember that these workers paid out handsome sums over the years in their own taxes too - so it is their own money. They earned their pensions, and by paying taxes, they earned the right to have them protected - good luck to them!

johnsparkexile

"A good day for Waterford but a bad day for the rest of the country."


Yes, a good day for waterford / South Kilkenny. The good day for the rest of the country was the fact that the Government was forced to protect pensions for all Irish workers because of the Waterford workers victory in Europe.

ec18

fricatus wrote: »

These pensions are the property of the workers by dint of their employment contracts. If it hadn't been in their contract, no doubt many of them would have taken on a private pension of their own. They didn't, because they had an employment contract which included it, and spent many years working under this understanding.

The only pensions that are guaranteed are the ones from the state, every company that offers a pension plan uses another private pension provider and everyone of them is subject to investment risk............I'm happy they got their money out of a bad situation, but I'm just unsure of the details of why the govt has to cover what was a pension/contractual obligation from a private company