Court rules in favour of Waterford Crystal workers

TheQuietFella

I'm struggling to decide upon what to do with it all!
I think I'll invest it in another home in a sunnier climate this time.
Which country is the difficult part. France or Italy?

Should I purchase in the South Tyrol or the coastal areas such as Aquitaine, France? I'm finding it very difficult to decide but I might go for a few weeks before I decide.

Where did I leave that cork-screw?

Curly Judge

TheQuietFella wrote: »

I'm struggling to decide upon what to do with it all!
I think I'll invest it in another home in a sunnier climate this time.
Which country is the difficult part. France or Italy?

Should I purchase in the South Tyrol or the coastal areas such as Aquitaine, France? I'm finding it very difficult to decide but I might go for a few weeks before I decide.

Where did I leave that cork-screw?

Surely you mean Waterford-screw?

Sesshoumaru

Hurrah! The ordinary people of Ireland have to dip into their pockets to bail someone else out. I'm sure former workers of WC are happy. Can anyone point out some good reasons why ordinary taxpayers should be happy they are going to be hit with this extra tax?

hmmm

thomasm wrote: »

She said the deal would be funded by a two-year levy paid by members of defined benefit schemes, introduced in the 2013 budget.

No Joan, you made everyone with pension savings pay for it, including those of us who don't have rich guaranteed pensions.

TheQuietFella

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Hurrah! The ordinary people of Ireland have to dip into their pockets to bail someone else out. I'm sure former workers of WC are happy. Can anyone point out some good reasons why ordinary taxpayers should be happy they are going to be hit with this extra tax?

You're paying for it through DIRT levies, proposed water charges, property taxes, motor tax, proposed broadcasting licence, VAT of 13%, NCT's, reduction or removal of tax free allowances & a myriad of many others but remember, the taxes that were paid in there MILLIONS to this country & the workers who put this COUNTRYS name on a map!

The money that was brought in through tourism to Hotels, pubs, restaurants' bus companies, seasonal workers in a host of industries, & a host of stores NATIONWIDE all benefitted from Waterford Crystal.

So for all ye be grudgers don't forget to look occasionally into the past & think of the men & women who worked hard for their money & when you pass what once was a factory you might doff your cap in remembrance to all those that made this small county great!

P.S. Ask yourself also how much politicians who are no longer in office or even the country are being paid for their services rendered before any more critism is levelled at a once proud work force.

Curly Judge

fricatus wrote: »

By your logic, if I had €50,000 in the bank, and the bank went bust, and I got my money back because the government guarantee kicked in, then somehow that €50,000 would no longer be my own money? What should I do? Hand it back with a sheepish look on my face?

Firstly you would only get back the 50,000 you had on deposit, not an imaginary sum leveraged up by the insane rules of a defined benefit scheme.
Secondly it would have applied to all the citizens in the country with deposits and not just to those with union muscle.

fricatus wrote: »

These pensions are the property of the workers by dint of their employment contracts. If it hadn't been in their contract, no doubt many of them would have taken on a private pension of their own. They didn't, because they had an employment contract which included it, and spent many years working under this understanding. The fact that the pension and the company went belly-up is not their fault. They kept their side of the bargain, and it is right that the government now steps in and guarantees their entitlement.

The fact that the company went belly up is largely their fault.
At every turn they opposed management by their obstinacy and belligerence.
They, as much as anyone, are responsible for the factory closing.

fricatus wrote: »

This is why we have a system of government and pay our taxes - so that people who fall on hard times have social welfare, housing, etc., and so that anyone who has a company pension or a small savings pot in the bank will not lose out through misfortune if someone else fails to manage the money prudently.

Your system seems to have failed people on private pensions who witnessed them being decimated and raided by the very government structure you are lauding.

fricatus wrote: »

Remember that these workers paid out handsome sums over the years in their own taxes too - so it is their own money. They earned their pensions, and by paying taxes, they earned the right to have them protected - good luck to them!

These handsome sums they've paid in .....I'd love to see them tabulated and contrasted with what they will be getting now?
They have paid out a fraction of what they are now demanding and want ordinary people to pick up the tab because they screwed up their own careers and finances.

TheQuietFella

ec18 wrote: »

The only pensions that are guaranteed are the ones from the state, every company that offers a pension plan uses another private pension provider and everyone of them is subject to investment risk............I'm happy they got their money out of a bad situation, but I'm just unsure of the details of why the govt has to cover what was a pension/contractual obligation from a private company

Google it! It's been explained an amount of times here for you.

BadCharlie

8 in 10 companies go bust or abouts. Are we saying we should not pay pensions to all the bust companie workers?

Im happy the wc people get their money. And no i have no family ties to the workers. Its just the right thing to do in this case.

GIS A JOB

can someone advise me on how to get my entilements under this settlement if it is accepted

martin12

In the year 853, Danish Vikings sailed up the river here and, after some battling with with the local Celts, established a port. Some 1,100 years later, after World War II, an Irish entrepreneur imported a band of German, Czech and Italian craftsmen to revive the local glassmaking business, which became Waterford Crystal and quickly spread its glistering elegance to millions of homes, mostly in America, and bringing prosperity.

The crystal boom, which began in the mid-1950's and started to shatter five years ago, also gave a sense of identity to the 38,000 people of this clean medieval city, eight miles up the River Suir from the Irish Sea.

Now many people here, especially the workers at the crystal plant, fear that in the current phase of the town's history, the good times are gone forever and that the company itself, part of the Waterford Wedgwood Corporation, may eventually disappear, with production shifted to Germany and elsewhere on the continent. Company officials, mostly Irishmen, wince at this vision.

"We don't have a secret agenda to move production out of Waterford," the company chairman, E. Patrick Galvin, said in an interview. "That is not our intention, not our strategy. We want to produce classic Waterford crystal in Waterford at a reasonable profit margin." Layoffs and Pay Cuts

To do this, Mr. Galvin has proposed that the work force at the plant, which was 3,200 five years ago and is now 1,900, be reduced by another 500 jobs by the end of the year and that those remaining accept cuts of up to 30 percent in wages and benefits.

Mr. Galvin said the company has lost more than $150 million in the last five years, including another $6 millon in the first half of this year, and he wants 500 workers to volunteer for severance. If they do not, he said, there will be forced layoffs. He said the comany might not survive a strike like the 14-week stoppage in 1990.

The workers and their union have not formally threatened a strike, but say privately that if Waterford refuses to improve the severance plan, there could be one. The workers are also upset that the company has already begun to produce crystal in Germany and Slovenia, and that in the coming years about 15 percent of the company's products will be made abroad.

The job losses at Waterford Crystal contribute to a local unemployment rate of about 25 percent, 5 points higher than the national average, which is one of the highest in Europe. And the probability of even higher unemployment reflects the national situation, where the Government of Prime Minister Albert Reynolds has been looking to the European Community and private industry for money to ease what is called the jobs crisis here.

"Waterford glass manufactured elsewhere would not be Waterford glass," Mr. Reynolds said on a visit here in July. "I want to see Waterford Crystal remain here in Waterford." Who's to Blame

His words echoed those of both workers and company officials. Leaders of the Amalgamated Transport & General Workers Union blame mismanagement for much of the company's troubles. Company officials blame excessive wage and early retirement settlements made five years ago by a previous management team, and the drop in recent years of the value of the dollar, as 70 percent of Waterford's sales are in the American market.

"It's crazy to think of putting 500 people out, creating jobs in Germany to produce things to sell in the States," said Walter Cullen, the head of the local union.

"That is the logic of what the company is doing," he said. "They are prepared to risk the brand name, that the consumer will not care whether the glass is made in Waterford."

He said he agreed with the company statement that only a small percentage of the crystal was now produced abroad, and that the lines produced on the continent were new ones, not competitive with the higher-priced lines made in Waterford. But he argued that the company had never responded to a union offer to try to work out a plan to have the new lines produced here at a profit. The company acknowledges this.

Also at issue is whether the crystal produced elsewhere is as good as that made here, and whether the new lines, partcularly the lower-priced Marquis stemware, deserves the Waterford name. A Marquis goblet costs $29.50, about $20 less than a classic Waterford.

The difference is that every line cut in the design of a Lismore is done by hand, by a man at a diamond cutting wheel. The crystal produced abroad is shaped and cut by machines, then finished off by a worker.

John Stenson, a 40-year-old master cutter, held up a centerpiece bowl he was cutting. He pointed to a slight variation in a row of triangular points.

"When its made by hand, the points are not perfect," he said. "A machine will make perfect points. By hand, each piece is individual, with little differences."

He was more optimistic the plant won't close than some of the other cutters and blowers, who are being asked to take cuts that would bring their pay down to a maximum of $700 a week, from about $900. Less skilled workers earn closer to the national industrial average of $400 a week.

Tony Walsh, a cutter who is active in the union, blamed the company, not the high wages, for the problems. He said Waterford, suffering now because the dollar has been losing value, should have long ago exploited the European market.

"There are a lot of rich people in Europe," he said. "With proper marketing I don't see why the world's leading brand name can't be found on the boulevards of Paris, Bonn, Milan."

TheQuietFella

Well done lads!

Curly Judge

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Well done lads!

Yeah ...they look half starved right enough!

Deise67

Curly Judge wrote: »

Yeah ...they look half starved right enough!

are still coming out Saturday morning to give the motivational speech ? I'll buy you a nice creamy pint of bitter !

Curly Judge

The high fliers in this company will be entitled to pensions of almost 30,000 euro per annum.
So... people like me who've paid in full for our private pensions and will be lucky to end up with 22,000 per annum, (including our old age pension) will have to stump up to finance it.
Progressive...or what?

Deise67

Curly Judge wrote: »

The high fliers in this company will be entitled to pensions of almost 30,000 euro per annum.
So... people like me who've paid in full for our private pensions and will be lucky to end up with 22,000 per annum, (including our old age pension) will have to stump up to finance it.
Progressive...or what?

still don't get your point ? do you have issue with TDs pensions , public sector ? we all pay those as well ! its not as if its going to open the flood gates double insolvency is rare ! looks like its a little personal issue you have going ! my last post here as I have booked a test drive in a new merc , and I'm off to the Bahamas for Xmas ! or maybe just maybe I will put the money away to secure some decent standard of living if I'm lucky enough to make retirement sure if I don't its there for the kids !

ec18

There's a difference between TD/ public sector and private pensions......the equivalent is that everyone at google Ireland lost their jobs and the govt had to pay the sum of their private pensions

wellboytoo

Hey take the Monty Python line, always look on the bright side, there is roughly €5,000,000 going to hit the Waterford economy in a weeks time and ditto in January, we'll all get a little bit back,

jonnyfingers

Curly Judge wrote: »

The fact that the company went belly up is largely (the workers') fault.
At every turn they opposed management by their obstinacy and belligerence.
They, as much as anyone, are responsible for the factory closing.
.

I don't usually post on this, and apologies if this turns into a rant, but this comment was where you lost all credibility.

The Waterford plant was a small part of the overall company when it went bust (less than 500 lost their jobs in Waterford in 2009, 200 went in 2008, but 6600 were employed by Waterford Wedgewood when it went bust). And the reason it went bust was because it was completely mismanaged. The company had debts of over $1 billion and was losing $100 million a year even before $60 million of debt interest needed to be paid. KPS, who took over the company, admitted every aspect of the business was broken, over-staffing, unproductive plants, inefficient supply chain and poor distribution model, sales and marketing (four company brands competing against each other in the marketplace). Add to that a weak dollar and competition from China and it's amazing the company lasted as long as it did.

In fact KPS opted not to buy the Waterford plant as it only had a single production line. Obviously it also had a higher labour cost than other plants such as in Indonesia, but the truth is the Waterford plant was only a small part of the overall company and suggesting that the workers were largely to blame for the company going belly up is at best uniformed and at worst ridiculous.

Funnily enough the pension fund was just another other part of the company that was completely mismanaged also. You can save all your rhetoric about defined benefit pensions, the fact is the workers were offered it by the company and were entitled to it. The Irish government also failed to enact mandatory legislation that would have protected the pension funds.

So the vast majority of mistakes were made by others and not the workers. I'm delighted to see things work out for them. And the overall cost to the tax payer is a pittance compared to the money handed over to bail out the banks, or to fund consultants to set up a semi-state companies, or the countless ways tax payer's money is wasted.

So leave your begrudgery somewhere else and allow some Waterford people to have a little extra security in their retirement.

Curly Judge

jonnyfingers wrote: »

I don't usually post on this, and apologies if this turns into a rant, but this comment was where you lost all credibility.

The Waterford plant was a small part of the overall company when it went bust (less than 500 lost their jobs in Waterford in 2009, 200 went in 2008, but 6600 were employed by Waterford Wedgewood when it went bust). And the reason it went bust was because it was completely mismanaged. The company had debts of over $1 billion and was losing $100 million a year even before $60 million of debt interest needed to be paid. KPS, who took over the company, admitted every aspect of the business was broken, over-staffing, unproductive plants, inefficient supply chain and poor distribution model, sales and marketing (four company brands competing against each other in the marketplace). Add to that a weak dollar and competition from China and it's amazing the company lasted as long as it did.

In fact KPS opted not to buy the Waterford plant as it only had a single production line. Obviously it also had a higher labour cost than other plants such as in Indonesia, but the truth is the Waterford plant was only a small part of the overall company and suggesting that the workers were largely to blame for the company going belly up is at best uniformed and at worst ridiculous.

Funnily enough the pension fund was just another other part of the company that was completely mismanaged also. You can save all your rhetoric about defined benefit pensions, the fact is the workers were offered it by the company and were entitled to it. The Irish government also failed to enact mandatory legislation that would have protected the pension funds.

So the vast majority of mistakes were made by others and not the workers. I'm delighted to see things work out for them. And the overall cost to the tax payer is a pittance compared to the money handed over to bail out the banks, or to fund consultants to set up a semi-state companies, or the countless ways tax payer's money is wasted.

So leave your begrudgery somewhere else and allow some Waterford people to have a little extra security in their retirement.

No doubt the management were to blame to a great extent.
The main mistake they made was in allowing greedy unions, urged on by greedy workers, to let their costs escalate.
They should have faced them down and, even if it took a six month strike, the company would have been saved.
I mean nobody was going to die for the want of a bit of overpriced glass.
Just as greedy unions are, even today, playing ducks and drakes with the livelihoods of workers in Liebherr, not a hundred miles up the road.

fiachr_a

How much will the average worker get pension wise?

jonnyfingers

Curly Judge wrote: »

No doubt the management were to blame to a great extent.
The main mistake they made was in allowing greedy unions, urged on by greedy workers, to let their costs escalate.
They should have faced them down and, even if it took a six month strike, the company would have been saved.
I mean nobody was going to die for the want of a bit of overpriced glass.
Just as greedy unions are, even today, playing ducks and drakes with the livelihoods of workers in Liebherr, not a hundred miles up the road.

Did you even read my post? Unions were a tiny part of the overall problem so why are you even mentioning them?

What were the big problems, the Waterford Wedgewood worldwide problems?

Headcount - 6,600 worldwide before going bust, 3,600 now producing the same output
Productivity - half the headcount can now produce the same because all plants were inefficient and badly managed
Business Cost Structure - Four divisions of the business, all independent. Four production processes, four marketing heads, four sales forces and all competing against each other
Supply Chain and Logistics - Product was being handled too much, shipped between too many warehouses, waste of time and cost increases due to storage requirements
Stale Products - products weren't selling, measures taken to liven up the brands were not working. That has been no problem for KPS although they have moved away from the "hand-made" selling points, instead positioning the products as simply prestige or luxury brands.

So again, unions and Waterford workers were not to blame for the company's demise. There weren't even to blame for the plant's demise. As a plant Waterford was always going to be doomed as labour costs were expensive and the Euro was not a good currency to be producing in. Waterford Crystal as a hand-made brand became less important to consumers in the 2000's which really drove the nail in the coffin for Waterford. While the tourist trade and artisan pieces were a plus (and have been kept), mass production in Ireland was just not feasible in the long run. I don't side with unions at the best of times but the fact is the unions did all they could to protect their members and did a pretty good job.

None of that matters now. The plant would have closed, unions or no unions. People would have lost their jobs no matter who was involved. However they were entitled to their pensions and the government, even though dragging their heels on the issue for years, have finally delivered on it.

jonnyfingers

fiachr_a wrote: »

How much will the average worker get pension wise?

From the Irish Times website:

The settlement means:

•A tax-free lump sum for deferred members of the Waterford Crystal schemes of €1,200 per year of service.

and

•Workers with pensions under €12,000 will get 90pc of their pension.

•Workers with pensions between €12,000 and €24,000 will get 90pc of €12,000 plus 67pc of remaining benefit between €12,001 and €24,000.

•Workers with pensions in excess of €24,000 will receive 90pc of €12,000, 67pc of benefit between €12,001 and €24,000 and 50pc of any benefit above €24,000.

wellboytoo

Lads chill
Two lines from the ubiquitous song Frozen at the moment.
let it go , let it go.
The past is in the past.
it's a good news story leave it alone.

jonnyfingers

wellboytoo wrote: »

Lads chill
Two lines from the ubiquitous song Frozen at the moment.
let it go , let it go.
The past is in the past.
it's a good news story leave it alone.

True. I'm out. Off to build a snowman!

Curly Judge

wellboytoo wrote: »

Hey take the Monty Python line, always look on the bright side, there is roughly €5,000,000 going to hit the Waterford economy in a weeks time and ditto in January, we'll all get a little bit back,

God give you luck with it!

sparkling sea

Does anyone know what groups of workers are included in the 1774 workers?

Curly Judge

jonnyfingers wrote: »

Did you even read my post? Unions were a tiny part of the overall problem so why are you even mentioning them?

Of course I read your post.
I didn't accept your argument, thats all.
Forgive me for having the temerity to have my own opinion.

jonnyfingers wrote: »

So again, unions and Waterford workers were not to blame for the company's demise. There weren't even to blame for the plant's demise. As a plant Waterford was always going to be doomed as labour costs were expensive

You don't see any contradiction there at all, I suppose?
And we haven't even got around to discussing the poisonous work atmosphere or the restrictive practices.

dzilla

jonnyfingers wrote: »

I don't usually post on this, and apologies if this turns into a rant, but this comment was where you lost all credibility.
.

Great post

jonnyfingers wrote: »

And the overall cost to the tax payer is a pittance compared to the money handed over to bail out the banks, or to fund consultants to set up a semi-state companies, or the countless ways tax payer's money is wasted.
.

don't forget the mnc paying a pittance in tax on our shores

7upfree

Curly Judge wrote: »

No doubt the management were to blame to a great extent.
The main mistake they made was in allowing greedy unions, urged on by greedy workers, to let their costs escalate.
They should have faced them down and, even if it took a six month strike, the company would have been saved.
I mean nobody was going to die for the want of a bit of overpriced glass.
Just as greedy unions are, even today, playing ducks and drakes with the livelihoods of workers in Liebherr, not a hundred miles up the road.

It's actually 118 miles.

That "overpriced glass" was perfectly and expertly crated by some of the best craftsmen on the planet. An incredibly stupid comment really.

'Greedy unions/greedy workers"?? Are you ****ting me? After what the so-called "professionals" and "management" have done to this country??

You are now just coming across as a complete begrudger who fails to see this for what it is - a victory for the common man/woman, not faceless, corporate financial parasites.

What field do you work in yourself?

Is it private or public sector?

7upfree

wellboytoo wrote: »

Hey take the Monty Python line, always look on the bright side, there is roughly €5,000,000 going to hit the Waterford economy in a weeks time and ditto in January, we'll all get a little bit back,

Spot on. Waterford, for once, will benefit. And not before time.