Has the Fianna Fail leopard really changed its spots?

Havermeyer

paddy147 wrote: »

Thanks.
Take it easy,enjoy the rest of your night.:)

I'll do my best.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

nummnutts wrote: »

Shower of clueless 'out for themselves' gob****es. Always have been, always will be.

paddy147 wrote: »

Good choice of words to describe Kenny,Gilmore and the rest of the FG/Labour muppets.

In fairness, it's a good choice to describe virtually every affiliated politician in the country. If not the whole world. Probably the voters as well.

But hey, that's democracy for you. Or maybe humanity.

Havermeyer

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

In fairness, it's a good choice to describe virtually every affiliated politician in the country. If not the whole world. Probably the voters as well.

But hey, that's democracy for you. Or maybe humanity.

As I said, it's more than a systematic issue.

keeponhurling

I was surprised to read the thread title, have Fianna Fail actually done anything to suggest they have changed?

They haven't made any apology for what they did as far as I'm aware, no new measures to stamp out corruption in the party etc.?

Some of the old guard either retired or weren't re-elected, which is good.
Although as other posters have mentioned, as long as Martin is leader, nobody would believe they've changed anyways.

I think most people can accept the fact that in any large organisation you're going to get a few rotten apples, it's the party's acceptance of this and attempts to cover up that grates.

JupiterKid

No is the answer to the question. FF remains a political party that is populist and corrupt to the core. They are populated by lying, conniving, scheming, arrogant individuals who believe that inheriting their father's seat and permanently keeping it is their God-given right.

If you look at the past 40 years of politics in this country, FF have squandered the good times and driven the economy into the ground leaving FG/Labour the thankless task of picking up the pieces.

TwoShedsJackson

Does anyone think the likes of these gombeens can change:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3elLmrCmOqo

paddy147

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Does anyone think the likes of these gombeens can change:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3elLmrCmOqo

"Hey ma,look at me,Im on the TV"......:pac::pac::pac:



Yer man standing to the far front left of the screen looks fairly smashed drunk....:D:D

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Proof that the answer is still no (at least with some individuals)...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ff-senator-without-the-right-to-life-you-have-no-school-592671.html

space_man

keeponhurling wrote: »

I was surprised to read the thread title, have Fianna Fail actually done anything to suggest they have changed?

They haven't made any apology for what they did as far as I'm aware, no new measures to stamp out corruption in the party etc.?

Some of the old guard either retired or weren't re-elected, which is good.
Although as other posters have mentioned, as long as Martin is leader, nobody would believe they've changed anyways.

I think most people can accept the fact that in any large organisation you're going to get a few rotten apples, it's the party's acceptance of this and attempts to cover up that grates.

i raised the question as it is their Ardfheis/Love in this weekend, and Micheal is desperate to rebrand/relaunch the pearty, but these awkward court cases and allegations just keep cropping up.
Why do the gardaí keep pursuing them?
how inconsiderate!:mad:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

space_man wrote: »

i raised the question as it is their Ardfheis/Love in this weekend, and Micheal is desperate to rebrand/relaunch the pearty, but these awkward court cases and allegations just keep cropping up.
Why do the gardaí keep pursuing them?
how inconsiderate!:mad:

This is it. The best thing FF could do now would be to distacne themselves from members accused of corruption and let the law run its course, publicly condemning them if found guilty. Rebranding, or any sort of change, can never be done until this happens.

radioactiveman

cripes its only when FG get back into power that you remember how little difference there is between the two parties.

I'll never forget looking watching the Dail coverage the night they passed the legislation on liquidating Anglo/IBRC.

Fianna Fail finance spokesman made a lot of really good points I thought. Then Enda Kenny's response which didn't address ANY of the questions. Just a recap of how far we'd come etc etc etc since the crisis.

A pure lesson in "more is less".....

When you look at Fianna Fail over the years though it speaks for itself.
Charlie
Bertie (McCreevy)
Cowen
and now Martin

Maybe Micheal Martin will break the trend line... yeah right

Grimreaper666

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

This is it. The best thing FF could do now would be to distacne themselves from members accused of corruption and let the law run its course, publicly condemning them if found guilty. Rebranding, or any sort of change, can never be done until this happens.

But there'd be nobody left!! They're all bloody crooks! And the ones that appear ok just haven't been found out yet!!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

But there'd be nobody left!! They're all bloody crooks! And the ones that appear ok just haven't been found out yet!!

The system works!

PopePalpatine

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Proof that the answer is still no (at least with some individuals)...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ff-senator-without-the-right-to-life-you-have-no-school-592671.html

They're obviously trying to get the Catholic fundamentalist bloc's votes. :rolleyes:

Legs.Eleven

Of COURSE they bloody well haven't! Jesus! Genuinely, you have to be thick as two planks to believe they have.

paddy147

Interesting speech by Mr Martain on the Property Tax,and mortgage holders in arrears.


"Its the wrong tax"



Leaders questions should be interesting in Leinster House tomorrow morning.:pac:

opinion guy

Is it just me or have the Irish Times turned into a FF publicity paper in the last week or so ?

galwayrush

My fart has more sincerity than any speech their amnesiac leader could make.

Ally Dick

The scary thing is that people who are in their early teens won't remember the damage that Fianna Fail did, when it's their turn to vote, and they will likely vote them in. It's every adult's civic responsibility to convey to their children, the damage that these charlatans did, and which will impact on their lives too for years to come

galwayrush

Ally Dick wrote: »

The scary thing is that people who are in their early teens won't remember the damage that Fianna Fail did, when it's their turn to vote, and they will likely vote them in. It's every adult's civic responsibility to convey to their children, the damage that these charlatans did, and which will impact on their lives too for years to come

More disturbing are the people old enough to remember but thick enough to forget the momumental damage.

Yamanoto

Ally Dick wrote: »

The scary thing is that people who are in their early teens won't remember the damage that Fianna Fail did, when it's their turn to vote, and they will likely vote them in. It's every adult's civic responsibility to convey to their children, the damage that these charlatans did, and which will impact on their lives too for years to come

Forget teens - what's more exasperating is that many otherwise rational folk in their 20's, 30's and beyond will back FF candidates at the next general election in considerable numbers.

As an electorate, we appear stuck in a perpetual loop of hope, disappointment, anger and resignation.

Self-harm on a fcuking epic scale.

Ally Dick

galwayrush wrote: »

More disturbing are the people old enough to remember but thick enough to forget the momumental damage.

I'll never forgive or forget. There are a lot of idiots around alright

DEFTLEFTHAND

FF 4 life, we'll get those blueshirts on our side and form a government. What will you do then? You'll be powerless after we ban all other political parties and dump the Seanad and the leprechaun in the Aras.

A new beginning.

Grayson

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Proof that the answer is still no (at least with some individuals)...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ff-senator-without-the-right-to-life-you-have-no-school-592671.html

Senator Leyden told the gathering that without pro-life policies there will not be a need for education and childcare policies.

He said: "Just to say, what is more important, pre-school schooling or the right to life?

"Without the right to life, you have no pre-schooling, you have no school.

Jesus. that's the most messed up argument I've ever seen. He's one chewbacca away from making himself a parody of a parody.

dxhound2005

Ally Dick wrote: »

The scary thing is that people who are in their early teens won't remember the damage that Fianna Fail did, when it's their turn to vote, and they will likely vote them in. It's every adult's civic responsibility to convey to their children, the damage that these charlatans did, and which will impact on their lives too for years to come

galwayrush wrote: »

More disturbing are the people old enough to remember but thick enough to forget the momumental damage.

When the damage was being from 1997 onwards people were happy enough. It was only when the results of the damage became apparent around 2008 that people became unhappy. Knowing that policies like SSIA, bogus decentralisation and especially tax incentives for property speculation could not be good in the long run why did the electorate keep putting FF back into power? Was it because private property owners were seeing their houses increase in "value"? Looking back Bertie said he would have done things differently but was under too much pressure from the people who did not mind the damage being done once it was not affecting them adversely in the immediate term.

In May 2010, Ahern said of the property-based tax incentives which aggravated the Irish economic collapse that “We probably should have closed those down a good bit earlier but there were always fierce pressures, there was endless pressures to keep them. There was endless pressures to extend them,”. He continued saying the pressure to retain such incentives had come from developers, owners of sites, areas that did not have the developments, community councils, politicians and civic society.[82]


So will the electorate now throw out the coalition for not restoring everything to the way it was pre 2008?

paddy147

dxhound2005 wrote: »

When the damage was being from 1997 onwards people were happy enough. It was only when the results of the damage became apparent around 2008 that people became unhappy. Knowing that policies like SSIA, bogus decentralisation and especially tax incentives for property speculation could not be good in the long run why did the electorate keep putting FF back into power? Was it because private property owners were seeing their houses increase in "value"? Looking back Bertie said he would have done things differently but was under too much pressure from the people who did not mind the damage being done once it was not affecting them adversely in the immediate term.

In May 2010, Ahern said of the property-based tax incentives which aggravated the Irish economic collapse that “We probably should have closed those down a good bit earlier but there were always fierce pressures, there was endless pressures to keep them. There was endless pressures to extend them,”. He continued saying the pressure to retain such incentives had come from developers, owners of sites, areas that did not have the developments, community councils, politicians and civic society.[82]


So will the electorate now throw out the coalition for not restoring everything to the way it was pre 2008?

Possibly...based on the packs of lies that FG and Labour have told everyone.


We will just have to wait and see.....thats if Labour even reaches it to 2015.:pac::pac:

tayto lover

galwayrush wrote: »

My fart has more sincerity than any speech their amnesiac leader could make.

Yes but FG/Labour seem to be exactly the same.
Not being a follower of any party I can see it very clearly.

space_man

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes but FG/Labour seem to be exactly the same.
Not being a follower of any party I can see it very clearly.

i think if you put the lot of them together, you wouldn't get a proper leader.
our political system, in our time of greatest need has failed us yet again.

for years, decades we have tolerated, colluded with, ignored, or actively supported bufoons and shisters, and guess what?

we have been 'richly' rewarded for so doing.:D

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

space_man wrote: »

i think if you put the lot of them together, you wouldn't get a proper leader.
our political system, in our time of greatest need has failed us yet again.

for years, decades we have tolerated, colluded with, ignored, or actively supported bufoons and shisters, and guess what?

we have been 'richly' rewarded for so doing.:D

... but that's not the fault of the system. The system works - in theory. The bit under that is more accurate.

space_man

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... but that's not the fault of the system. The system works - in theory. The bit under that is more accurate.

yes but ultimately who is responsible for the system we have? Moe, Larry & Curly perhaps?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

space_man wrote: »

yes but ultimately who is responsible for the system we have? Moe, Larry & Curly perhaps?

democracy has been around since the aincent Greeks. It worked for them to a certain extent. It works for the Scandanavians now.

We, however, are greedy and slothful feckers who dance at every trick the politicans throw. The voters.

Kippure

Look at whats happened in Iceland. They,ve voted in the very people that destroyed there country. I hope it never happens in Ireland Ever. FF should never be allowed in any postion of power or management Ever.

Noreen1

space_man wrote: »

i think if you put the lot of them together, you wouldn't get a proper leader.
our political system, in our time of greatest need has failed us yet again.

for years, decades we have tolerated, colluded with, ignored, or actively supported bufoons and shisters, and guess what?

we have been 'richly' rewarded for so doing.:D

I'd agree with the first part of your post, but, in fairness, I'm not convinced that we have tolerated or colluded with buffoons and shysters.

I've been calling for direct democracy for a while now - reason being, I'm heartily sick of trying to work out what any political party is likely to do, if elected.
I'm sick of being lied to.
I'm also sick of the quality of the candidates that are put forward for election, for various reasons.

The problem is - the electorate can only choose from the candidates who are standing for election - and, all too often, they're crooks, liars, idiots, or a combination of all three.

If, by some miracle, a decent candidate does get elected - the party whip system ensures that they maintain the status quo - so a candidate with the very best of intentions cannot effect any real change.

So, I don't believe that most people either tolerate or collude with the type of Politicians we get stuck with - it's more a case that we have very limited control in the first place.

And, unfortunately, unless the party whip system is abolished, and direct democracy is introduced - it will never change.

We have the type of system we have because it suits the political parties to offer no real choice (much less honesty) in policy, and it most certainly suits them to be able to lie through their teeth to get elected, in the sure and certain knowledge that when in Government they can do what they please, and there's nothing we can do about it until the next election.
And even if we do boot them out - they sail off into the sunset with a nice fat pension. It's a win/win situation for them.

As to FF being elected time after time - party faithful aside - FF managed to (falsely) present themselves as being the party who represented "ordinary Joe" - and there are a lot more ordinary Joes than there are upper middle class, and elites - hence the majority vote for FF, time and again.

Traditionally in this country, certainly among the older generation, FG was viewed as the party who looked after the more affluent in society.

The truth, of course, is that both FF and FG have a track record of looking after, er, certain people, shall we say - it's just a pity that it took the current mess for the (limited?) facts to emerge.

I'm a floating voter, btw, with no affiliation to any party.

Anynama141

Fianna Fail tell people what they want to hear, and when they get in government they give people what they want - hand outs, freebies, tax breaks etc. etc. Perfect populism. Of course it means that they ruined this country in the 40s, in the 70s and again in the last 5 years.

In a way though, you can't blame them - the real problem is the idiots who vote for them.

space_man

Anynama141 wrote: »

Fianna Fail tell people what they want to hear, and when they get in government they give people what they want - hand outs, freebies, tax breaks etc. etc. Perfect populism. Of course it means that they ruined this country in the 40s, in the 70s and again in the last 5 years.

In a way though, you can't blame them - the real problem is the idiots who vote for them.

in a way we're like those "delinquent" kids that failed the psychology experiment and went for the cookie straightaway instead of delaying gratification in order to get 2.
as an electorate we never have learnt the lesson that for every "freebie" there IS a cost. you either pay now, or usually you pay more down the line.
maybe this is something they should teach irish infants.

i have a 6 year old, and i think it's one of the most important lessons i can teach him.