Is rape always about power?

Brutal Deluxe

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Generally speaking, rape is about power. With the sole exception of the "wont take no for an answer" scenario, I can't really see what it's not about power.
You set out to force someone to do something the you're setting out to exert your power of them. Even if you try to justify it, it doesn't change the actions.

As for the party thing, still a key element there. That person passed already can't say no, so you're using the fact they're powerless to say no/stop you

Generally speaking?
Generalise much?

Tombi!

Bam Bam Mickey wrote: »

Generally speaking?
Generalise much?

Well, I can link you to sources that back that up if you like?

Three Seasons

Three Seasons wrote: »

Taking a wallet by force is what mugging is.

Maybe the rapist just wants sex so they rape someone. Maybe it's quicker for the rapist to get sex through rape than conventional means or maybe the rapist wants to have sex with someone more attractive than they could otherwise obtain it.

Maybe the rapist at a party sees a drunk woman and sees it as an easier opportunity to get sex by raping her than alternative options. There are countless scenarios, im baffled by the assumption all rapists are motivated by power.

How do you know what goes on in every single rapists mind?

Never claimed to, but in all those scenarios you mention power is used.

A rapist wants sex with a more attractive woman and decides to take it by force? How is power not an issue in that scenario?

A drunk and incapacitated woman? She is completely powerless before the rapist, so power is at play there.

There are many reasons why a man might rape, but power is an ever present ingredient, a constant in the face of other fluctuating factors.

Three Seasons

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Generally speaking, rape is about power. With the sole exception of the "wont take no for an answer" scenario, I can't really see what it's not about power.
You set out to force someone to do something the you're setting out to exert your power of them. Even if you try to justify it, it doesn't change the actions.

As for the party thing, still a key element there. That person passed already can't say no, so you're using the fact they're powerless to say no/stop you

Ok are muggings about power?

Tombi!

Three Seasons wrote: »

Ok are muggings about power?

Pretty much. Rape is using power to get sex and a mugging is using power to get an item(s)

Three Seasons

Candie wrote: »

Never claimed to, but in all those scenarios you mention power is used.

A rapist wants sex with a more attractive woman and decides to take it by force? How is power not an issue in that scenario?

A drunk and incapacitated woman? She is completely powerless before the rapist, so power is at play there.

There are many reasons why a man might rape, but power is an ever present ingredient, a constant in the face of other fluctuating factors.

Ok when I say "about power" I mean motivated by power.

You could equally say when a mugger wants a wallet they take it by force? How is that not an issue of power?

You are getting vaguer and vaguer now using the term "issue of power".

Anything could be classed an "issue of power".

When a mugger steals my phone and I run after them a take it back by force my motivation is getting my phone back, not power. I couldn't care less about power, I just want my phone back, force is simply the means used in that specific scenario of getting my phone back.

Three Seasons

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Pretty much. Rape is using power to get sex and a mugging is using power to get an item(s)

The motivation isn't power, the mugger doesn't care about power, the mugger just wants your wallet.

It is pointless and irrelevant to mention "power".

Why do we never here similar rhetoric about that muggings "are about power, not the stolen item".

FACT Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification.

List of Rape Myths, Sociology of Rape, Uni of Minnesota.

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

Tombi!

Three Seasons wrote: »

The motivation isn't power, the mugger doesn't care about power, the mugger just wants your wallet.

It is pointless and irrelevant to mention "power".

Why do we never here similar rhetoric about that muggings "are about power, not the stolen item".

It's the same argument though.
Literally the same, replace (in this case wallet) with sex.

The mugger wants your wallet and will use force/intimidation to get it.
The rapist wants sex and will use force/intimidation to get it.

Three Seasons

Three Seasons wrote: »

The motivation isn't power, the mugger doesn't care about power, the mugger just wants your wallet.

It is pointless and irrelevant to mention "power".

Why do we never here similar rhetoric about that muggings "are about power, not the stolen item".

Because the sexual dominance and degradation of a victim is not a wallet or consumer item.

Spunge

if rape is always about power.
sex is always about love.

GalwayGuy2

There are many reasons why a man might rape, but power is an ever present ingredient, a constant in the face of other fluctuating factors.

Anyway, Three Seasons your hardly dominating someone by stealing their wallet? There's lots of empirical evidence to show that rape is about power,but the rapist does get sexual satisfaction from the power.

It's just a bit of a strange thread tbh :S

GalwayGuy2

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Quite right, but for the purposes of this discussion the theoretical rapist is male. No slight or oversight intended.

ToddyDoody

It can be about misguided love? That's what my solicitor argued.

Three Seasons

Candie wrote: »

List of Rape Myths, Sociology of Rape, Uni of Minnesota.

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

Ok I see we're making progress, you now don't believe all rapists are motivated by power.

On the link provided I see many claims, I don't see any solid evidence. I just see a list of explanations, what are they backed up by. What they say may be true or it could be false.

For a start we are led to believe most rapists aren't even convicted so how do we know what all those rapists are motivated by.

It could be power, sexual gratification or numerous other explanations no one has proposed.

Three Seasons

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Anyway, Three Seasons your hardly dominating someone by stealing their wallet? There's lots of empirical evidence to show that rape is about power,but the rapist does get sexual satisfaction from the power.

It's just a bit of a strange thread tbh :S

If you beat them up and take their wallet I would call that domination.

Again rapists don't have one hive mind, they are individuals with their own unique personalities and motivations.

Dave!

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Which then becomes less about sex and more about forcing her to have sex. So it becomes about power.

I'm still not with you - you're just asserting that it is less about sex Why is it not valid to say it's actually just about sex (sex is the goal), her resistance is an obstacle in the way of reaching the goal, and force/power is the means by which the obstacle is overcome and the goal is reached?

Noone has said that power isn't a "factor", of course it is. But the question is, is it the motivation? You seem to be moving the goalposts a bit in your later posts, suggesting that because force is involved that it is therefore "about" force.

That's like saying when a burglar smashes your window to break into your house, that his crime becomes "about smashing windows". When in reality it's just something he felt he had to do in order to rob your shít!

Three Seasons

Three Seasons wrote: »

Ok I see we're making progress, you now don't believe all rapists are motivated by power.

Lets get this very clear before you put more words in my mouth.

In my first post, this is what I wrote:

Candie wrote: »

Rape is a crime of violence using sex as the weapon.
I'm sure there are as many reasons for raping as there are rapists, but ultimately it's about power in one form or another, in my opinion.

I have never said it was the only motivation. I have only asserted that power is a constant factor, in one form or another, and that it seems to be a part of the mix that motivates a rapist.

Tombi!

Dave! wrote: »

I'm still not with you - you're just asserting that it is less about sex Why is it not valid to say it's actually just about sex (sex is the goal), her resistance is an obstacle in the way of reaching the goal, and force/power is the means by which the obstacle is overcome and the goal is reached?

Noone has said that power isn't a "factor", of course it is. But the question is, is it the motivation? You seem to be moving the goalposts a bit in your later posts, suggesting that because force is involved that it is therefore "about" force.

That's like saying when a burglar smashes your window to break into your house, that his crime becomes "about smashing windows". When in reality it's just something he felt he had to do in order to rob your shít!

Didn't mean to move the goal posts or anything. I'm just trying to make it clear that the difference between the rapist who won't take no for an answer and the rapist who sets out to rape someone is very little.

You could argue that the rapist that expects sex and then rapes when he doesn't get it, then he can be about raping for sex. But for the most part, rape is about power in terms of, exerting your own power over someone else

ahnowbrowncow

Candie wrote: »

Do they use physical power to take that sex by force? Or psychological power in the form of threat? Overcome their victim sexually, exerting sexual power over their victim?

Power in it's physical, sexual or psychological form is still power.

What about rape where the victim consented but was too drunk to legally consent? I doubt that's about power.

Tombi!

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

What about rape where the victim consented but was too drunk to legally consent? I doubt that's about power.

That's a bit of a grey area but technically speaking, *most* people have the common sense to tell the difference between "drunk and wanting it" and "barely speaking and going along with it".

Dave!

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Didn't mean to move the goal posts or anything. I'm just trying to make it clear that the difference between the rapist who won't take no for an answer and the rapist who sets out to rape someone is very little.

You could argue that the rapist that expects sex and then rapes when he doesn't get it, then he can be about raping for sex. But for the most part, rape is about power in terms of, exerting your own power over someone else

Okay. But there are so many difference circumstances that a rape can occur (date rape, rape in response to denial of sex, premeditated/planned rape, rape of a minor/incest, etc.), and on the face of it I don't see how their motivations can all be so succinctly summarised as "power"; they're too vastly different.

Tombi!

Dave! wrote: »

Okay. But there are so many difference circumstances that a rape can occur (date rape, rape in response to denial of sex, premeditated/planned rape, rape of a minor/incest, etc.), and on the face of it I don't see how their motivations can all be so succinctly summarised as "power"; they're too vastly different.

Well, the common factor in all of them is some form of power.
Be it planned rape, date rape, child rape/incest, refused sex, etc. It's always going to come down to someone using their power to force someone else to do what they like and usually, it's based on the fact that they can use the power is why they do it.

Dave!

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Well, the common factor in all of them is some form of power.
Be it planned rape, date rape, child rape/incest, refused sex, etc. It's always going to come down to someone using their power to force someone else to do what they like and usually, it's based on the fact that they can use the power is why they do it.

There's another common factor

If it's about power, then why is the end result something sexual? Why don't the rapists just control the victim, tie them up or something, maybe just give them a beating? Lock them in a basement? Humiliate them in some other (non-sexual) way?

There are lots of things they could do to demonstrate their dominance. But they choose sex.

Three Seasons

Candie wrote: »

Lets get this very clear before you put more words in my mouth.

In my first post, this is what I wrote:



I have never said it was the only motivation. I have only asserted that power is a constant factor, in one form or another, and that it seems to be a part of the mix that motivates a rapist.

If by "about power" you mean power factored into the process at some point I fail to see why power needs to be mentioned at all.

Like a previous poster mentioned, would you say house robberies are "about smashing windows and breaking doors" and emphasise this point. The smashing of windows wasn't the goal, it was a necessary part of the process to achieve the goal.

Three Seasons

Three Seasons wrote: »

If by "about power" you mean power factored into the process at some point I fail to see why power needs to be mentioned at all.

Like a previous poster mentioned, would you say house robberies are "about smashing windows and breaking doors" and emphasise this point. The smashing of windows wasn't the goal, it was a necessary part of the process to achieve the goal.

By that logic, are all rapes ONLY about sex? Since robbing a house is to gain material goods, is rape only to gain sex?

Three Seasons

Candie wrote: »

By that logic, are all rapes ONLY about sex? Since robbing a house is to gain material goods, is rape only to gain sex?

It depends on the rapists personal motivations, it could be to simply to have sex, it could be to humiliate the victim, it could be to satisfy some strange form of OCD, who knows.... There certainly isn't just one possible motivation.

Three Seasons

Three Seasons wrote: »

It depends on the rapists personal motivations, it could be to simply to have sex, it could be to humiliate the victim, it could be to satisfy some strange form of OCD, who knows.... There certainly isn't just one possible motivation.

Nobody said there was.

Pug160

I'd say there's a few reasons - certainly more than one or two. I think outright misogyny is probably more of a credible theory in cases where the rapist is indiscriminately targeting all sorts of women and doesn't seem to care about the attractiveness of them. I think in cases where it's attractive women only there is arguably a combination of factors - including power but perhaps an attempt to take what the attacker cannot otherwise acquire. In some cases it is probably just a fantasy or fetish.

Three Seasons

Candie wrote: »

Nobody said there was.

Can you clarify what you mean when you say " rape is intimately about power".

I interpret that to mean a rapists ultimate motivation is power. I disagree, I think there's probably numerous ultimate motivations.

I find it strange that if someone who thinks power is just one factor amongst many, they continually emphasise that factor. Body contact is ultimately a factor in every rape, but you don't hear people saying "rape is ultimately about body contact".

eviltwin

Part of my job is working with rape victims. They would be women who have been raped by their partners. In their cases all the women are afraid of the men and will have sex with him whenever he wants just to avoid a beating so he has no reason to rape however rape is common. Rapes seem to happen when she has done something he doesn't like, something that takes away a bit of his control. Rape seems to be his way of taking back that control. He could just hit her but hitting someone doesn't go to the very core of their being in the same way a rape does I don't think. Its very personal, very invasive. I don't know the motives of the random rapist and wouldn't pretend to know enough to hazard a guess but in the case of relationship rape control is the major factor involved.

Faith

Psychologists and similar have poured decades into studying the motivations for rape. You can debate it or not believe it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the main motivation for rape is power of some form. Research has shown that there's 4 broad categories of rapist: Power-assurance rapist, which is the most common type; Power-assertive rapist; Anger-excitement rapist; Anger-retaliatory rapist. You can read more about these four types here. If you read through that, you'll see that sexual pleasure is often a goal for the rapist, but it's not their motivation and it's not why they rape.

Pug160

Faith wrote: »

Psychologists and similar have poured decades into studying the motivations for rape. You can debate it or not believe it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the main motivation for rape is power of some form. Research has shown that there's 4 broad categories of rapist: Power-assurance rapist, which is the most common type; Power-assertive rapist; Anger-excitement rapist; Anger-retaliatory rapist. You can read more about these four types here. If you read through that, you'll see that sexual pleasure is often a goal for the rapist, but it's not their motivation and it's not why they rape.

Well of course it's power of some form - how could it not be? But there's a big difference between saying it is only about power and saying that power is the trunk and there's many branches attached to that trunk. Psychology is interesting but there are times when common sense tells you certain things.

YFlyer

dd972 wrote: »

I can never get my mind round the notion that only the victims of male rape in U.S Prisons are 'Gay' and the perpetrators aren't, (even with the stigma of being the bitch ) surely the perpetrators have to be that way inclined to be able to do that.

The perpetrator here says his not gay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q27xtHbgXcU

Faith

Pug160 wrote: »

Well of course it's power of some form - how could it not be? But there's a big difference between saying it is only about power and saying that power is the trunk and there's many branches attached to that trunk. Psychology is interesting but there are times when common sense tells you certain things.

Who said it's only about power? The question was "Is rape always about power?" and the answer is yes. Nobody is claiming to have a formula to work out to what degree in each individual case.

Dave!

Faith wrote: »

Who said it's only about power? The question was "Is rape always about power?" and the answer is yes. Nobody is claiming to have a formula to work out to what degree in each individual case.

So could it be, say, 60% about sex, 40% about power in some situations? Or even 80/20?

Pug160

Faith wrote: »

Who said it's only about power? The question was "Is rape always about power?" and the answer is yes. Nobody is claiming to have a formula to work out to what degree in each individual case.

It's an extremely ambiguous term though, and doesn't do justice to how complex these things are.

Faith

Dave! wrote: »

So could it be, say, 60% about sex, 40% about power in some situations? Or even 80/20?

Like I said, nobody has a specific formula.

I find it odd that you're so attached to the idea that rape is about sex. Do you prefer to believe that men are so desperate for sex that they'll forcibly rape women just to get a ride? That they're so weak and lacking in self-control that rape is a viable option?

If you read the link I posted, you'll see that rapists often have regular, consensual sexual partners. So, in those cases, it's unlikely to be about an unstoppable desire for sex.

clairefontaine

I think the majority of the time it is about entitlement. Then there are other times where it is about mixed messages and ignorance around consent, particularly when under the influence.

Pug160

Faith wrote: »

Like I said, nobody has a specific formula.

I find it odd that you're so attached to the idea that rape is about sex. Do you prefer to believe that men are so desperate for sex that they'll forcibly rape women just to get a ride? That they're so weak and lacking in self-control that rape is a viable option?

If you read the link I posted, you'll see that rapists often have regular, consensual sexual partners. So, in those cases, it's unlikely to be about an unstoppable desire for sex.

I think (and this is just my opinion) that in some cases a man who has an obsession with pretty girls might commit rape because his frustration at not being able to attract this type of woman boils over into rage and he takes back a perceived lack of power by gaining it by force. I don't know if this constitutes a small percentage of rapists but it does seem plausible to me.

GalwayGuy2

Originally Posted by Dave!
So could it be, say, 60% about sex, 40% about power in some situations? Or even 80/20?

Tbh, I don't think you can separate it. In a rapist's mindset sex and power are fused, so that sexual satisfaction is gained from power, and, mentally, vice versa. In my opinion, it isn't like a normal person's attitude towards sex at all.

Faith

Pug160 wrote: »

I think (and this is just my opinion) that in some cases a man who has an obsession with pretty girls might commit rape because his frustration at not being able to attract this type of woman boils over into rage and he takes back a perceived lack of power by gaining it by force. I don't know if this constitutes a small percentage of rapists but it does seem plausible to me.

Yeah, you're spot on. Feelings of inadequacy with women and insecurity contribute in a lot of cases. Of course, lots of people are insecure and feel inadequate, but the majority don't cope with it by raping.

errlloyd

A decent chunk of rape in Ireland is ignorance. Before I go any further, ignorance should not be a legal or morale defense for rape. In this country it is often incorrectly treated as either or sometimes both. But some lads take girls home who are too drunk to consent they get themselves worked up, they convince themselves the girl wants to carry through with it and they rape. I dunno if it's about power in all cases of date rape, I'd say sometimes it's just about Sex.

Again, that is not a defence, and it's the kind of thing that should be preventable. Us males need more respect.

It's what the don't be that guy / person campaigns in all the unis are trying to target.

Pug160

Faith wrote: »

Yeah, you're spot on. Feelings of inadequacy with women and insecurity contribute in a lot of cases. Of course, lots of people are insecure and feel inadequate, but the majority don't cope with it by raping.

Absolutely. That goes without saying. You might be surprised by how many 'male loser' sympathisers there are though. About 3 years ago, a man in America, George Sodini I think his name was, went into a gym and shot up a group of women. He may or may not have had a mental illness, and there was probably other factors which contributed to his actions, but the main one seemed to be his frustration at not being validated by a good looking woman. A large number of people felt for this guy, going by the replies on forums and news outlets.

Dave!

Faith wrote: »

Like I said, nobody has a specific formula.

That's fine then. But if you hear commentary about rape in the media and the like, I promise that you'll find the unchallenged premise of the discussion is that rape is about power/control, and nothing to do with sex. You appear to have insinuated the same thing earlier.

If nobody has a specific formula, then maybe we can stop trying to stifle discussion around the balance the different factors and motivations might play in the crime.

Faith wrote: »

I find it odd that you're so attached to the idea that rape is about sex.

I'm not attached to any idea, and am open to persuasion on any topic. My motivation here is to challenge a received wisdom which is repeated without challenge, possibly for politically correct or sensitivity reasons.

Faith wrote: »

Do you prefer to believe that men are so desperate for sex that they'll forcibly rape women just to get a ride? That they're so weak and lacking in self-control that rape is a viable option?

Pretty petty comment really. It doesn't matter what I "prefer" to believe; I'm trying to establish what is or isn't a fact, not to support my ideology or preconceptions. If it turns out that rape is primarily driven by men's desperation and over-active sex drive, then that's how it goes - we should deal with that fact as a society. We shouldn't let politically correct notions drive us. Similarly if rape is primarily about power, then that's the way it is. Facts are facts, "belief" doesn't come into it.

Given your own comment above, maybe I should turn the question on you? Are you driven by some sort of feminist ideology that prevents you from accepting the notion that men might simply rape women for purely carnal reasons, because the opportunity presents itself and because they can, so you have to brush that aside and seek a deeper reason?

This reminds me of what Michael Shermer suggests about conspiracy theories; people perceive certain people/places as larger-than-life, too big to be brought down by something small. So when JFK was assassinated, or the US was attacked on 9/11, people frantically scramble to find a more sinister and vast plot than the mundane and disappointing truth - that it was just a lunatic with a rifle, or it was a bunch of nuts who hate America.

Maybe there's something similar at play here.

Faith wrote: »

If you read the link I posted, you'll see that rapists often have regular, consensual sexual partners. So, in those cases, it's unlikely to be about an unstoppable desire for sex.

People who cheat on their spouses may have regular, consensual sex too. Doesn't stop them seeking affection elsewhere (younger, more attractive?)

errlloyd

Should also probably point out that most things most people (men are particularly guilty) do are about power.

I don't do things that make me feel less powerful.

Faith

Dave! wrote: »

Given your own comment above, maybe I should turn the question on you? Are you driven by some sort of feminist ideology that prevents you from accepting the notion that men might simply rape women for purely carnal reasons, because the opportunity presents itself and because they can, so you have to brush that aside and seek a deeper reason?

No, I'm driven by the fact that I'm a psychologist who has studied the topic in some depth, and plan to make a career out of working in the area. I'm driven by research. If you're really interested in studying the topic in greater detail, I can point you towards some useful references?

It's not going to turn out that rape is primarily driven by men's desperation and over-active sex drive. You write as if this is a new topic that's never been looked at before. There is mountains of research into the topic, and the vast majority points towards power underpinning rape. As always, there are dissenting opinions, and again, I can point you towards theorists who believe that sex has more to do with it than is generally accepted. I stress though, they're currently in the minority.

You might have a point about conspiracy theories if it wasn't for me only saying what the research has determined. I'm quite comfortable trusting in science for this one. I'm not on my own here.

As for your last point, are you comparing cheaters with rapists? I'm not sure I get your point.

Micky Dolenz

Depends.

Guy comes home with a drunk girl, she passes out, he has sex with her. It's rape but probably driven by horniness.

Then you have premeditated rapists, who get off on the planning and then execution,There is certainly a degree of powerat play and a sexual desire.

To say it is all about power and never about sex is absurd in my opinion.

BlimpGaz

If you examine the sexual behaviour of chimpanzees, you'll see that the males are divided into "alphas" and "betas". Alphas are the minority who get their way sexually with the female chips whenever they want, and the females will automatically always comply. However the same females will mostly resist the betas' sexual advances, and the alphas will have to step in to intervene. When the alphas aren't around though, the betas freely have their way sexually with the female chimps, you might say via rape. Of course chimpanzees don't have the potential to experience irrational emotional problems, or have qualms about sex, so the only result of the rapes are females getting briefly pissed off.

The said situation with chips is obviously about sexual gratification, as chimps don't have any deeper motives like humans do. It seems fairly obvious that rape in modern human civilization is simply an extension of the above, with added lack of morality from the perpetrators as humans understand the venerable nature of other humans as they too are so.

Rape is by and large not so different than any other form of theft. When people say this "it's about power" stuff, it reminds me of when people say that robbers steal for the thrill of it, rather than to acquire that which they desire. Sexual gratification plays out as a form of mental acquisition, no different than the acquisition of material possessions.

bodice ripper

Ladies, please. Can't it be about power AND sex?