Is rape always about power?

Dave!

Faith wrote: »

No, I'm driven by the fact that I'm a psychologist who has studied the topic in some depth, and plan to make a career out of working in the area. I'm driven by research. If you're really interested in studying the topic in greater detail, I can point you towards some useful references?

By all means, some online resources would be good, particularly ones that critically analyse the studies that have been done.

Faith wrote: »

It's not going to turn out that rape is primarily driven by men's desperation and over-active sex drive. You write as if this is a new topic that's never been looked at before. There is mountains of research into the topic, and the vast majority points towards power underpinning rape. As always, there are dissenting opinions, and again, I can point you towards theorists who believe that sex has more to do with it than is generally accepted. I stress though, they're currently in the minority.

No, I know it won't point to that, I'm being slightly facetious and simplifying, as you did in your previous post.

Everyone has acknowledged that power is a factor. However you've said yourself that there is no formula. I wouldn't suggest there's a simple equation, but the fact that you didn't feel comfortable ruling out a couple of rough suggestions of the ratios might suggest it's not as straight-forward, nor the science as rigorous, as you're trying to present it.

Faith wrote: »

You might have a point about conspiracy theories if it wasn't for me only saying what the research has determined. I'm quite comfortable trusting in science for this one. I'm not on my own here.

I'm aware that it's a popular conclusion. Admittedly I haven't engaged with the literature on it, and am giving my thoughts off the top of my head, but it's a rather sensitive and loaded issue, so my feeling is that this may influence the research. I'm open to persuasion.

Faith wrote: »

As for your last point, are you comparing cheaters with rapists? I'm not sure I get your point.

I'm saying that having regular consensual sexual contact doesn't preclude one from sexual misconduct or deviancy.

BlimpGaz

Certain individuals seem to be desperate to believe that rape is solely about power. I think they want to pin as much blame as is possible on the rapist. The idea of it being about sexual gratification - and sexual gratification being a biological drive and psychological need - deflects the blame somewhat away from the rapist, and onto more complex and perhaps societal issues. Whereas a rapist being driven by power can easily be equated completely with the individual and their total greed and disregard.

Faith

Dave! wrote: »

By all means, some online resources would be good, particularly ones that critically analyse the studies that have been done.

Ah. You see, that's a bit mutually exclusive. I can point you towards textbooks and peer-reviewed journal articles, but online resources are very murky. I only felt comfortable linking to the previous page because I can confirm the information via textbook. I wouldn't link to any online resources that I can't confirm have been peer-reviewed. Do you have access to an institutional login for electronic scientific databases? At least, you could try scholar.google.com and enter terms like "motivations for rape". Some PDFs might be available, with a variety of opinions.

Everyone has acknowledged that power is a factor. However you've said yourself that there is no formula. I wouldn't suggest there's a simple equation, but the fact that you didn't feel comfortable ruling out a couple of rough suggestions of the ratios might suggest it's not as straight-forward, nor the science as rigorous, as you're trying to present it.

I didn't rule it out because I'm not in a position to. Someone with a lot of research experience in the field might be happy to, but I can't claim that yet. In any case, motivations are never going to be straight-forward or rigourously defined. But we can understand the general underpinnings, which is what I outlined. Of course there's a variety of factors at play, but we can say with reasonable certainty that the most influential of them is power.

General General

I find it hard to think of any human action that isn't in some way to do with power.

feargale

General General wrote: »

I find it hard to think of any human action that isn't in some way to do with power.

Guys who spend alot of time in the pub, for instance? More to do with Powers, I should think!

General General

feargale wrote: »

Guys who spend alot of time in the pub, for instance? More to do with Powers, I should think!

Well, in that situation, there is the exertion of power to do as one pleases, then there are the people who are 'in' & the people who are 'out' of a given circle in that pub from any drinker's point of view... within & without that circle, there are various examples of 'power play' that go on.

Think of the guy who has 'his' bar stool as an extreme case.

BlimpGaz

Faith wrote: »

I'm quite comfortable trusting in science for this one. I'm not on my own here.

Since when is Psychology equivalent with empirical science?

If you do the research without bias, you'll see there are a very broad range of opinions on this subject from equally qualified individuals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence#Sexual_gratification

Though anger and power are believed, by some academics, to be the primary motivation for most rapes,[9] in 1994, Richard Felson coauthored the controversial book "Aggression and Coercive Actions: A Social-Interactionist Perspective" with James Tedeschi, a book which argues that sexual fulfillment is the motive of rapists, rather than the aggressive desire to dominate the victim.[10] Felson believes that rape is an aggressive form of sexual coercion and the goal of rape is sexual satisfaction rather than power. Most rapists do not have a preference for rape over consensual sex.[11][12][13][14][15][16] In one study, male rapists evaluated with penile plethysmography demonstrated more arousal to forced sex and less discrimination between forced and consensual sex than non-rapist control subjects, though both groups responded more strongly to consensual sex scenarios.[17]

BlimpGaz

General General wrote: »

Well, in that situation, there is the exertion of power to do as one pleases, then there are the people who are 'in' & the people who are 'out' of a given circle in that pub from any drinker's point of view... within & without that circle, there are various examples of 'power play' that go on.

Think of the guy who has 'his' bar stool as an extreme case.

If that's what power means, then you'd have to equate all desire that's not for sex, food, drugs (etc.) as desire for power. This kind of desire may well be the main motive for rapists (rather than the actual physical sensation of sex), but you cannot say a rapist desires the kind of power a dictator does (which the notion "sex is about power" seems to imply), any more than he desires the kind of power as a guy who wants his very own bar stool.

I think this is mostly a linguistics problem. Power is a far too ambiguous term.

feargale

General General wrote: »

Well, in that situation, there is the exertion of power to do as one pleases, then there are the people who are 'in' & the people who are 'out' of a given circle in that pub from any drinker's point of view... within & without that circle, there are various examples of 'power play' that go on.
Think of the guy who has 'his' bar stool as an extreme case.

You mean the 2 guys discussing Sunday's match, the guy singing the boozy song, the two half pissed honeymooners, the troubled guy drowning his sorrows? They're all playing a power game? Ah come on!

General General

feargale wrote: »

You mean the 2 guys discussing Sunday's match, the guy singing the boozy song, the two half pissed honeymooners, the troubled guy drowning his sorrows? They're all playing a power game? Ah come on!

My point is that there are aspects of power play going on in many if not all those situations mentioned, yes.

I think that saying that any action (or most actions anyway) are about power is essentially saying nothing (or stating the bleeding obvious).

However, as I don't want to derail the thread, we should likely stop here - stating which is, I must add, partially a power play.

feargale

Males seem to argue mainly sexual gratification and females seem to argue power. And this issue seems to generate alot of heat. I wonder if there is an agenda at play. And I wonder how much it matters. People, for whatever motive, take what they are not entitled to, and it's illegal and immoral. Has any of the research included interviews with rapists?

BlimpGaz

feargale wrote: »

Males seem to argue mainly sexual gratification and females seem to argue power.

Wouldn't males be in a better position to estimate rapists' motives? as let's face it, we're talking about male on female rape here. I'm not saying "all men are potential rapists" by the way, but just stating that males have a slight edge because they possess and therefore have more understanding of the male sexual drive.

Pug160

I do agree with what some of the other posters are trying to say as well. I don't think some women fully understand how primal some men can be. And I'm certainly not saying that to try to belittle my own sex. Sexual gratification for sexual gratification's sake is at play as well as the power of committing the rape itself I think. I think most of us are agreeing with each other to some extent here.

One thing I'd be interested in finding out is how physically attractive a lot of victims are. I think that would give a lot of answers. How the attackers look would also be of significance.

If Brad Pitt were to go out and rape a woman, I think it would be safe to say that it wasn't done to satisfy a sexual urge alone, as he'd have plenty of opportunities to fulfill that urge with a willing partner. If it's a very average and or below average man, then there's a possibility that it could be done to fulfill a primal urge. It sounds terribly simple, but it's just one scenario out of many. There are very selfish men out there who are opportunists and who will take what they want, just like a thief would. Power, frustration, mental illness/delusion, sexual gratification, women hatred, selfishness. It could be any of those things and more.

Seachmall

BlimpGaz wrote: »

Wouldn't males be in a better position to estimate rapists' motives?

Not necessarily. I'd wager there are even rapists who aren't consciously aware of why the rape.


I'm am however sceptical of the claim that it's always about power. I'd say serial rapists do it predominantly because of power but for one-off/opportunistic rapists there could be a wide array of reasons from simple lust to various disorders.

Ruudi_Mentari

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiUaXPQDqg

BlimpGaz

Pug160 wrote: »

I do agree with what some of the other posters are trying to say as well. I don't think some women fully understand how primal some men can be. And I'm certainly not saying that to try to belittle my own sex. Sexual gratification for sexual gratification's sake is at play as well as the power of committing the rape itself I think. I think most of us are agreeing with each other to some extent here.

One thing I'd be interested in finding out is how physically attractive a lot of victims are. I think that would give a lot of answers. How the attackers look would also be of significance.

If Brad Pitt were to go out and rape a woman, I think it would be safe to say that it wasn't done to satisfy a sexual urge alone, as he'd have plenty of opportunities to fulfill that urge with a willing partner. If it's a very average and or below average man, then there's a possibility that it could be done to fulfill a primal urge. It sounds terribly simple, but it's just one scenario out of many. There are very selfish men out there who are opportunists and who will take what they want, just like a thief would. Power, frustration, mental illness/delusion, sexual gratification, women hatred, selfishness. It could be any of those things and more.

I've heard the 'power argument' being justified before by the fact that often times a rapist will have a wife/girlfriend and therefore access to sex at the time of committing a rape, but this doesn't factor into the equation that men often desire casual sex with multiple partners. The real tell-tale sign would be if a man had access to multiple women for casual sex and didn't feel like a sexual conquest was a big deal, yet STILL raped.

I think women and men relate to sex very differently, which causes a lot of confusion, and assumptions on women's part about the motivation of men's sexual desires.

Three Seasons

Faith wrote: »

Like I said, nobody has a specific formula.

I find it odd that you're so attached to the idea that rape is about sex. Do you prefer to believe that men are so desperate for sex that they'll forcibly rape women just to get a ride? That they're so weak and lacking in self-control that rape is a viable option?

If you read the link I posted, you'll see that rapists often have regular, consensual sexual partners. So, in those cases, it's unlikely to be about an unstoppable desire for sex.

I prefer to know the truth and not make bizarre assumptions.

If rapes were taking place due to sexual desperation, which I don't assume, that means those particular rapists were so desperate for sex that they used force.

It doesn't mean men in general are "desperate for sex".

And your problem here could be precisely that you are believing what you want to believe. I prefer to look at the evidence and make a conclusion based on reality, not how I want the world to work.

tigger123

Three Seasons wrote: »

...

And your problem here could be precisely that you are believing what you want to believe. I prefer to look at the evidence and make a conclusion based on reality, not how I want the world to work.

Not so sure After Hours is the most appropriate place for "evidence" or "reality".

Noodleworm

I think a lot of people here are discounting the fact that most rape cases are not a stranger jumping out in a dark alley.
They are done by people the victim know, so could be an acquaintance, friends, someone there on a date with. and a lot of the time substances play a role, mostly alcohol. Many cases are where some guy took advantage of the fact some girl was passed out.

Latchy

Rape by definition has to have some power by the perpetrator over the victim which I would imagine also plays some (if not all ) part in the act .

Three Seasons

Latchy wrote: »

Rape by definition has to have some power by the perpetrator over the victim which I would imagine also plays some (if not all ) part in the act .

Mugging a by definition has to have some power by the perpetrator over te victim which I imagine also plays some ( of not all) part in the act.

Latchy

Three Seasons wrote: »

Mugging a by definition has to have some power by the perpetrator over te victim which I imagine also plays some ( of not all) part in the act.

Mugging and Rape by definition has to have some power by the perpetrator over the victim which I imagine also plays some ( of not all) part in the act .

Your point is ?

Three Seasons

Latchy wrote: »

Mugging and Rape by definition has to have some power by the perpetrator over the victim which I imagine also plays some ( of not all) part in the act .

Your point is ?

Why don't we hear repetitive rhetoric about muggings being a crime of power?

A thief could smash a window, to rob a house. That doesn't mean the crime was about smashed windows. The smashed window is incidental, it's arbitrary to say the thief's crime was about smashed windows.

Latchy

Three Seasons wrote: »

Why don't we hear repetitive rhetoric about muggings being a crime of power?

A thief could smash a window, to rob a house. That doesn't mean the crime was about smashed windows. The smashed window is incidental, it's arbitrary to say the thief's crime was about smashed windows.

The thread is about the act of Rape as a form of power and you would have to physically use power over the victim( obviously) which I suggested may be part of the thrill and satisfaction for the perpetrator's as much as the actual sexual act ...that was my point ...which you simply repeated again in another form . You could ask if bullying at school or in the work place is about power which in that case is as much psychological as physical which I also suggest could be what the perpetrator has in mind .

UCDVet

No, rape is not always about power.

/thread

Pug160

Noodleworm wrote: »

I think a lot of people here are discounting the fact that most rape cases are not a stranger jumping out in a dark alley.
They are done by people the victim know, so could be an acquaintance, friends, someone there on a date with. and a lot of the time substances play a role, mostly alcohol. Many cases are where some guy took advantage of the fact some girl was passed out.

A lot of rapes are not reported, so we don't really know how many occur. The 'jumping out of the bushes' rapes still happen enough to warrant being discussed. I've heard a few stories over the years about bogus taxi drivers raping women, and the usual stories about women walking home late at night being attacked, so it still happens. As I said earlier, I think some rapists are just opportunists who take advantage of a situation the same way a thief would. That's not to say rape is on a par with robbery, but it's similar in some respects.

Seachmall

Three Seasons wrote: »

Why don't we hear repetitive rhetoric about muggings being a crime of power?

Because a mugging has a clear purpose. Taking something that the criminal believes is only available, or is more easily available, by taking it directly from the person.

The intuitive purpose of rape is sexual gratification. But sexual gratification can be gotten from other methods that are both easier, more readily available and less risky (such as prostitutes or simple masturbation).

That would suggest that sexual gratification is not the only purpose in cases of rape.

Opportunistic rape might be different, a person may see it as an easy and risk-free chance of achieving sexual gratification (such as if the person is unconscious after a night of drinking) but someone who actively seeks out a victim to rape is not simply attempting to blow a load.

Pug160

Seachmall wrote: »

Because a mugging has a clear purpose. Taking something that the criminal believes is only available, or is more easily available, by taking it directly from the person.

The intuitive purpose of rape is sexual gratification. But sexual gratification can be gotten from other methods that are both easier, more readily available and less risky (such as prostitutes or simple masturbation).

That would suggest that sexual gratification is not the only purpose in cases of rape.

Opportunistic rape might be different, a person may see it as an easy and risk-free chance of achieving sexual gratification (such as if the person is unconscious after a night of drinking) but someone who actively seeks out a victim to rape is not simply attempting to blow a load.

I think some of the rapists probably get off on the fact the girl they rape is just a pretty civilian. Street prostitutes are usually rough looking to say the least, and higher class escorts are generally only affordable if you're reasonably wealthy. In some cases the rape could very well be just sexual gratification with someone they selfishly want. How many times this happens is impossible to say, but I'd imagine there are some in this category, even if they're a minority.

hatrickpatrick

Why is AH so preoccupied with rape and the various sub-topics thereof lately...?

Three Seasons

Seachmall wrote: »

Because a mugging has a clear purpose. Taking something that the criminal believes is only available, or is more easily available, by taking it directly from the person.

The intuitive purpose of rape is sexual gratification. But sexual gratification can be gotten from other methods that are both easier, more readily available and less risky (such as prostitutes or simple masturbation).

That would suggest that sexual gratification is not the only purpose in cases of rape.

Opportunistic rape might be different, a person may see it as an easy and risk-free chance of achieving sexual gratification (such as if the person is unconscious after a night of drinking) but someone who actively seeks out a victim to rape is not simply attempting to blow a load.

It is a huge assumption to make that rapists never rape purely to get sex, one I don't agree with.

Seachmall

Three Seasons wrote: »

It is a huge assumption to make that rapists never rape purely to get sex, one I don't agree with.

I don't mean to suggest that it's purely or exclusively about power. There are opportunists, people with mental or emotional disorders, people on drugs, and so on.

But the reason people focus on the power aspect is because that is primarily what fuels the archetypical sicko/psycho/weirdo rapist that people imagine when they think of rapists.

Whether those people are the majority of rapists I've no idea, I'd actually be somewhat surprised if they were.

GalwayGuy2

Opportunistic rape might be different, a person may see it as an easy and risk-free chance of achieving sexual gratification (such as if the person is unconscious after a night of drinking) but someone who actively seeks out a victim to rape is not simply attempting to blow a load.

Tbh, I think there's a power element to the unconcious alcolhol scene. It's a bit of "She won't know what I did to her", "She can't fight", "She deserves it for passing out drunk". I find it very hard to believe that someone would have sex with an unconscious woman because they were horny.

It is a huge assumption to make that rapists never rape purely to get sex, one I don't agree with.

Why?

Isn't there always a little (as in microscopic) sub and domness in a normal sexual relationship? So, why can't you believe that a person who rapes has such a skewed mentality that he equates power over a person, without their consent, as sexual gratification?

And just to some random points. I don't believe male sexual urges are this overpowering inclination. And, I don't think female sexuality is really different biologically, sociologically is a whole different story.

BlimpGaz

Seachmall wrote: »

sexual gratification can be gotten from other methods that are both easier, more readily available and less risky (such as prostitutes or simple masturbation).

That would suggest that sexual gratification is not the only purpose in cases of rape.

If that's the case, then why do so many men seek casual sex with willing women rather than simply availing of the easier and supposed equally equivalent options that are readily available to them (i.e. sex with prostitutes/masturbation)?

BlimpGaz

I would name anger/frustration as the cause of rape, long before I'd name some vaguely defined 'hunger for power'.

Three Seasons

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Tbh, I think there's a power element to the unconcious alcolhol scene. It's a bit of "She won't know what I did to her", "She can't fight", "She deserves it for passing out drunk". I find it very hard to believe that someone would have sex with an unconscious woman because they were horny.


Why?

Isn't there always a little (as in microscopic) sub and domness in a normal sexual relationship? So, why can't you believe that a person who rapes has such a skewed mentality that he equates power over a person, without their consent, as sexual gratification?

And just to some random points. I don't believe male sexual urges are this overpowering inclination. And, I don't think female sexuality is really different biologically, sociologically is a whole different story.

If you believe all rapist have the same mentality I believe it is you who has the skewed mentality.

Racists don't have some hive mind, they have unique personalities and motivations. It would be insane tonsuggest you know the motivations of every single rapists.

Seachmall

BlimpGaz wrote: »

If that's the case, then why do so many men seek casual sex with willing women rather than simply availing of the easier and supposed equally equivalent options that are readily available to them (i.e. sex with prostitutes/masturbation)?

Because masturbation is boring and prostitution is frowned upon? Or maybe they like the chase? Or maybe they're looking for love? And so on and so forth.

Regardless, if you were deprived of sex for several years and desperate for it would you rape someone? I'm assuming no, which means there are other factors at play than just sexual gratification.

I would name anger/frustration as the cause of rape, long before I'd name some vaguely defined 'hunger for power'.

Taking your anger or frustration out on some is a power ploy.

Latchy

Pug160 wrote: »

I think some of the rapists probably get off on the fact the girl they rape is just a pretty civilian. Street prostitutes are usually rough looking to say the least, and higher class escorts are generally only affordable if you're reasonably wealthy. In some cases the rape could very well be just sexual gratification with someone they selfishly want. How many times this happens is impossible to say, but I'd imagine there are some in this category, even if they're a minority.

I also think this is a big factor for a lot of Rapists .Having consensual sex with a worn out prostitute doesn't do it for them but the idea of having sex with somebody ( or anybody ) unobtainable who takes their fancy is what get's them off .

seenitall

BlimpGaz wrote: »

If that's the case, then why do so many men seek casual sex with willing women rather than simply availing of the easier and supposed equally equivalent options that are readily available to them (i.e. sex with prostitutes/masturbation)?

Because emotionally well-balanced adults seek the validation of their sexual attractiveness with other adults who they, in turn, find desirable.

Just don't ask me why, though, the reasons for this strange behaviour are utterly beyond me when such great alternatives as paying for it and DIY are available.

Are you 10?

BlimpGaz

There must be a psychological reason why some people (mainly female) are so evidently attached to the belief that rapists predominantly desire power as a motive for their crimes. I think it's because that particular motive dissolves the rapist of the least blame (not that a rapist isn't completely responsible for his rapes, but is it really realistic to propose that a new-born baby is predetermined to commit the horrific act of rape in his lifetime?).

If a rapist is driven by anger/frustration/horniness, that then automatically prompts the question of why. Whereas if he was driven by 'greed for power', people are less likely to inquire why, and more likely to assume the simplistic conclusion that he is just inherently evil, which then perpetuates the victim complex. I would urge those people not to settle for the simplest answer that feeds your desired beliefs and offers comfort, if you truly wish to understand the motives of rapists and hence be able to prevent the crime.

BlimpGaz

Seachmall wrote: »

Taking your anger or frustration out on some is a power ploy.

I don't disagree, But if that's the case wouldn't you specify anger/frustration as the motive rather than "power"?

BlimpGaz

seenitall wrote: »

Because emotionally well-balanced adults seek the validation of their sexual attractiveness with other adults who they, in turn, find desirable.

Just don't ask me why, though, the reasons for this strange behaviour are utterly beyond me when such great alternatives as paying for it and DIY are available.

Are you 10?

More like emotionally imbalanced teenage girls. Were you serious with this post?

Seachmall

BlimpGaz wrote: »

but is it really realistic to propose that a new-born baby is predetermined to commit the horrific act of rape in his lifetime?).

Is anybody proposing that?

If a rapist is driven by anger/frustration/horniness, that then automatically prompts the question of why.

Once again, anger and frustration would fall into the power box.

And I fail to see how horniness would prompt the question of why.

Whereas if he was driven by 'greed for power', people are less likely to inquire why, and more likely to assume the simplistic conclusion that he is just inherently evil, which then perpetuates the victim complex. I would urge those people not to settle for the simplest answer that feeds your desired beliefs and offers comfort, if you truly wish to understand the motives of rapists and hence be able to prevent the crime.

The Power motive is probably the most complicated answer that has been suggested in response to the question of why people commit rape.

BlimpGaz wrote: »

More like emotionally imbalanced teenage girls. Were you serious with this post?

Are you suggesting people don't seek validation from others? Really? Do you exist outside of a computer?

seenitall

BlimpGaz wrote: »

More like emotionally imbalanced teenage girls. Were you serious with this post?

I was serious. In addition, although I was joking, I see that, considering the alternatives, you being 10 would be the most preferable state of affairs at this stage.

bodice ripper

I suspect this focus on power in rape is partly driven by the fact that the idea that it could be about overwhelming sex drive in men is just deeply unpalatable.

BlimpGaz

bodice ripper wrote: »

I suspect this focus on power in rape is partly driven by the fact that the idea that it could be about overwhelming sex drive in men is just deeply unpalatable.

Allow me to take a wild guess, female?

Grayson

bodice ripper wrote: »

I suspect this focus on power in rape is partly driven by the fact that the idea that it could be about overwhelming sex drive in men is just deeply unpalatable.

Plus they could just hire a sex worker for a small amount.

bnt

Well, as a guy, my response to the OP's question is "how the hell would I know?"
I've never spoken to a rapist about it, or personally felt the urge to rape, so I'm bemused how so many posters seem to have an opinion on the topic. All I have is what I've read, and so I'm not qualified to pontificate on the topic.

Grayson

bnt wrote: »

Well, as a guy, my response to the OP's question is "how the hell would I know?"
I've never spoken to a rapist about it, or personally felt the urge to rape, so I'm bemused how so many posters seem to have an opinion on the topic. All I have is what I've read, and so I'm not qualified to pontificate on the topic.

everyone can pontificate. It's not like you're being asked for a precide opinion. the whole point of pontificating is to pretend that you know what you're talking about and then moralise it.

Just like I did.

bodice ripper

BlimpGaz wrote: »

Allow me to take a wild guess, female?

never claimed otherwise.

honey83

bodice ripper wrote: »

I suspect this focus on power in rape is partly driven by the fact that the idea that it could be about overwhelming sex drive in men is just deeply unpalatable.

I agree...and the abuse to women. Some men who are abusive to their partners will rape them as well. I think many of these men are mentally ill and abusive. Teaching our sons that no means no is also important.