If not for us the archaeology would be lost anyway...

dr gonzo

Fighting Irish wrote: »

There are always going to be bad people in this world, the main fact is if MDing was legal, there would be so much more objects going to our museums

Is that all you think these materials are useful for? Archaeologists dedicate their careers to finding things to stick in glass cases so people can gawp at them...

Fighting Irish

dr gonzo wrote: »

Is that all you think these materials are useful for? Archaeologists dedicate their careers to finding things to stick in glass cases so people can gawp at them...

What if every MDer kept note of where each object was found?

I've an app on my phone that is just for this, lets you take a pick, it saves the gps coordinates and lets you write a small note

slowburner

Fighting Irish wrote: »

What if every MDer kept note of where each object was found?

I've an app on my phone that is just for this, lets you take a pick, it saves the gps coordinates and lets you write a small note

You just don't get it do you?
Unlike some posters here whose interest in Archaeology arose out of similar misguided beliefs.
They spent time in this forum and they learned some stuff.
They grew up.
Now they are highly valued contributors.
You refuse to grow up, refuse to learn and you are a member of an ethos which seriously threatens the Archaeology of this island.
Your contributions here are unpleasant, unwelcome and deeply distasteful to people who have a genuine interest in the history and prehistory of this island.

You leave me with no option but to hand out a 2 week ban.

davycc

This post has been deleted.

Meathlass

Fighting Irish wrote: »

What if every MDer kept note of where each object was found?

I've an app on my phone that is just for this, lets you take a pick, it saves the gps coordinates and lets you write a small note

It's not the geographical location that's important though. It's the location in relation to the other archaeological deposits e.g. soils, other artefacts, pits, postholes etc.

Let's take the example of a bronze axe head.

If found by a metal detector who records the location we will know the gps co-ordinates but nothing more. If found by an archaeologist and recorded properly we will know if it was found in a pit, post hole, ditch etc and what relationship these features have to other features on site.

Was the axe found at the bottom of a pit where it had been deliberately deposited and covered over?

Or was it found at the side of a ditch, high up in the backfill where it may have been thrown when moved from its original position. Maybe the soil around it was the remains of a burnt building.

Maybe it was found with other non-metal items from the Iron Age or even Medieval period in which case we can deduce that it was carefully kept for hundreds of years and kept as a status symbol.

There's so much more to be learned when artefacts are found in the correct context. We don't have to dig everything up immediately. Far better to wait until we have more non-obtrusive investigating techniques.

davycc

Fighting Irish wrote: »

There are always going to be bad people in this world, the main fact is if MDing was legal, there would be so much more objects going to our museums

The Fact remains that hobby Metal Detecting is 100% legal with landowners permission as is ownership & use once its not being used on or near National Monuments or Archaeological Sites..

Mr Kelly cant even say for sure where these items came from other that the vague Co Tipp area..

& if He dosent know with 100% certanity then he shouldnt be so quick to label them as stolen treasures & be having pompous press conferences like he had just brought down the super evil MD Mafia cartel:rolleyes:.

A judge wouldnt convict a person in a case like this with little evidence apart from purely circumstancial at best..Please dont edit or delete this reply as Im not in breach of the rules this time

dr gonzo

davycc wrote: »

The Fact remains that hobby Metal Detecting is 100% legal with landowners permission as is ownership & use once its not being used on or near National Monuments or Archaeological Sites..

Mr Kelly cant even say for sure where these items came from other that the vague Co Tipp area..

& if He dosent know with 100% certanity then he shouldnt be so quick to label them as stolen treasures & be having pompous press conferences like he had just brought down the super evil MD Mafia cartel:rolleyes:.

A judge wouldnt convict a person in a case like this with little evidence apart from purely circumstancial at best..Please dont edit or delete this reply as Im not in breach of the rules this time

Lets discuss this point by point. Listed archaeological monuments on this island number in the tens of thousands; ringforts and fulachts alone are probably 50,000 together, and thats two monument types. When you factor in the catchment areas of these sites then this country starts to get very covered very quickly.

Secondlythe ownership and operation of MD's is licenced on the grounds that you require one...

Thirdly, its not the where that relevent to questions of legality, its the when. Since this mans life span is known, its fairly easy to place his MD days within the time period stipulated by the national monuments act, thus making his activities illegal.

So lets say you somehow own a licenced metal detector, you get permission to operated it on private land that is nicely out of reach of any listed national monuments, and you claim ignorance about any others that might be on the land. Within that miniscule pocket, which is already rediculously unlikely, you might fall through the cracks, except, anything you find of an archaeological nature is already the property of the state. This is not the UK, landowners permission has no bearing on ownership of found artefacts. If you find an artefact and dont report it to the museum within 3 days you are in breach of the national monuments acts and could face prosecution.

In summary, MDing is, for all intents and purpose, 100% illegal, unless you navigate the minefield of legislation that surrounds it, in which case you could keep nothing of historic value anyway. So why bother? If you read the points that many of us have made you will see that the only thing you achieve by going into a field with an MD is the wanton destruction of our heritage. Is your little hobby worth it?

davycc

dr gonzo wrote: »

Lets discuss this point by point. Listed archaeological monuments on this island number in the tens of thousands; ringforts and fulachts alone are probably 50,000 together, and thats two monument types. When you factor in the catchment areas of these sites then this country starts to get very covered very quickly.

Secondlythe ownership and operation of MD's is licenced on the grounds that you require one...

Thirdly, its not the where that relevent to questions of legality, its the when. Since this mans life span is known, its fairly easy to place his MD days within the time period stipulated by the national monuments act, thus making his activities illegal.

So lets say you somehow own a licenced metal detector, you get permission to operated it on private land that is nicely out of reach of any listed national monuments, and you claim ignorance about any others that might be on the land. Within that miniscule pocket, which is already rediculously unlikely, you might fall through the cracks, except, anything you find of an archaeological nature is already the property of the state. This is not the UK, landowners permission has no bearing on ownership of found artefacts. If you find an artefact and dont report it to the museum within 3 days you are in breach of the national monuments acts and could face prosecution.

In summary, MDing is, for all intents and purpose, 100% illegal, unless you navigate the minefield of legislation that surrounds it, in which case you could keep nothing of historic value anyway. So why bother? If you read the points that many of us have made you will see that the only thing you achieve by going into a field with an MD is the wanton destruction of our heritage. Is your little hobby worth it?

I have seen the maps of NM & other archaeoligical sites & familiarised myself with their functions & I wouldnt dream of going near one with an MD in tow.

Im totally against anybody detecting on such sites & Ill fully support jailtime for offenders convicted in the courts.....that image posted earlier of the holes from somebody searching a protected area made my blood boil.

The dead man cannot give us any specific answers & at best Kelly is making an educated Guess.

You mention licences being needed this is only true if you are undertaking an official licenced archaeoligical dig & are an archaeologist or their staff.

Honest, ethical, Hobby detectorists like myself know our localities inside out & know all the protected places to stay far far away from.

Most of the common finds appear to be nails horseshoes bits of old tractor & machine parts a few rusty 20/21century coins & old fishing toxic lead weights.
If I ever did find something of Archaelogical Importance I wouldnt want to keep it anyways I realise its the property of the state I have read the relevant statutes & know what to do .

In regard to having the landowners permission I know this is not "the Uk, landowners permission has no bearing on ownership of found artefacts."

I only mentioned the Landowners Permission in regards to best practice & "the country code" & its recomended for all hobbies that you wish to undertake eg fishing camping shooting hiking etc. Its just common courtesy & decency& respect.

BTW I wouldn't call it a little hobby its hugely popular here & globally.In some countries would be far more popular than Archaeology.Rightly or wrongly as you see it.

Ive been lurking here & contributing too a long time & have a huge love & appreciation for our History & Archaeology & I just want you to see both sides of the coin.I dont have any hidden motives either.

Im not a blackmarket antiquities dealer even though Dr Kelly likes to tar every MDer with the same brush at every chance he gets .

dr gonzo

davycc wrote: »

I have seen the maps of NM & other archaeoligical sites & familiarised myself with their functions & I wouldnt dream of going near one with an MD in tow.

Im totally against anybody detecting on such sites & Ill fully support jailtime for offenders convicted in the courts.....that image posted earlier of the holes from somebody searching a protected area made my blood boil.

The dead man cannot give us any specific answers & at best Kelly is making an educated Guess.

You mention licences being needed this is only true if you are undertaking an official licenced archaeoligical dig & are an archaeologist or their staff.

Honest, ethical, Hobby detectorists like myself know our localities inside out & know all the protected places to stay far far away from.

Most of the common finds appear to be nails horseshoes bits of old tractor & machine parts a few rusty 20/21century coins & old fishing toxic lead weights.
If I ever did find something of Archaelogical Importance I wouldnt want to keep it anyways I realise its the property of the state I have read the relevant statutes & know what to do .

In regard to having the landowners permission I know this is not "the Uk, landowners permission has no bearing on ownership of found artefacts."

I only mentioned the Landowners Permission in regards to best practice & "the country code" & its recomended for all hobbies that you wish to undertake eg fishing camping shooting hiking etc. Its just common courtesy & decency& respect.

BTW I wouldn't call it a little hobby its hugely popular here & globally.In some countries would be far more popular than Archaeology.Rightly or wrongly as you see it.

Ive been lurking here & contributing too a long time & have a huge love & appreciation for our History & Archaeology & I just want you to see both sides of the coin.I dont have any hidden motives either.

Im not a blackmarket antiquities dealer even though Dr Kelly likes to tar every MDer with the same brush at every chance he gets .

I sincerely appreciate that you are conscientious, and I further appreciate that you are even on this forum discussing this issue in the first place. I certainly did not mean my post to insinuate you were out to line your pockets and I apologise that you caught the brunt of that! But for the sake of discussion lets just bring things back to the simplest aspect.

A metal detector is nothing more then a survey tool. I completely understand that you do not want to disturb archaeological remains, and I believe you when you say you would report any such finds accordingly, however, herein lies the problem. Until such time as a more advanced tool becomes available, you are forced to dig the object up to find out what it is you have located. Whether by design, or accident in your case, the fact remains that metal detector use inevitably leads to the destruction of archaeological contexts.

Myself and my fellow boardsies on here are not vehement about this topic because we think you, or any other, is specifically attempting to treasure hunt (though we can agree that many are) but because we think that metal detectorists can and would do an equivalent amount of destruction through simple ignorance as much as through greed, and as such we feel the need to condemn, in the strongest terms, this amateur practice.

Again, I applaud you for talking to us and taking this matter seriously, but can you guarantee to me that MD's can be used without damage to artefacts taking place?

slowburner

davycc wrote: »

The Fact remains that hobby Metal Detecting is 100% legal with landowners permission as is ownership & use once its not being used on or near National Monuments or Archaeological Sites..

davycc wrote: »

You mention licences being needed this is only true if you are undertaking an official licenced archaeoligical dig & are an archaeologist or their staff.

Both of these statements are untrue.

Before making such statements you need to familiarise yourself with the laws on metal detecting here

• Other than under licence, it is illegal to use a metal detecting device to search for archaeological objects in Ireland, both on land and underwater.

• The term ‘archaeological object’ is a legal one that has a wide meaning and may include lost or concealed cultural objects, including common objects such as coins and objects of relatively modern date including 20th century material.
(This latter point with regard to dating of archaeological objects has been ruled upon in a High Court Judicial Review - Record No 2001 579JR, between S. Gregg Bemis (Applicant) and the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Ireland and the Attorney General (Respondents). Judgement of Mr Justice Herbert delivered the 17th day of June, 2005).

davycc

I think your confused by my unique posting style lets deal with the basics 1st....

• Other than under licence, it is illegal to use a metal detecting device to search for archaeological objects in Ireland, both on land and underwater.


This is only true if you are deliberately setting out to find archaeological objects-
To which Im not in any way & neither would/should any ethical MDer..

& Dr Gonzo thanks for your open honest reply I knew you were letting off some steam about some of the badguys but I didnt take it personally, Its about time I was allowed to reply without it being deleted without so much as a pm or warning from a mod..

A metaldetector is a survey tool in the hands of professional archaeologists
& an enjoyable interesting harmless hobby in my hands
I realise that when criminal gangs use them to loot protected sites to sell to black market collectors this is an awful state of affairs & these sites & monuments need a lot more security in place & maybe gardai could bust these animals & lock them up make an example of them..

Jakub25

No kidding.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/900-looted-artefacts-recovered-29281305.html

Treasure hunters in the Republic of Ireland need a licence to search or dig and are obliged, by law, to report any finds or face up to five years in jail and a fine of 63,500 euro.

slowburner

Jakub25 wrote: »

No kidding.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/900-looted-artefacts-recovered-29281305.html

Yes.
This is no joke.

cfuserkildare

Can I just get a little clarification on this then,

It is more important for us to leave everything undisturbed and learn nothing, than it is to learn a little about them!!!

Such a sad situation.

No wonder most Irish know nothing about they're own land prior to 1916.

Such a pompous attitude towards knowledge.

Meathlass

cfuserkildare wrote: »

It is more important for us to leave everything undisturbed and learn nothing, than it is to learn a little about them!!!

With respect, I would contend that it is more important to excavate material properly, perhaps waiting for some future date when technological advances are widespread, and therefore gain vast amounts of info than to dig it all up now and gain comparatively little.

The techniques used today in archaeology would be unrecognisable to someone working in the area in the 70s. When I first started digging in the late 90s all our dating was C14. Now because of the huge reduction in price it's all AMS dating. Techniques change for the better and it would be common practice on non-rescue digs to leave areas for future excavation.

tayto lover

Meathlass wrote: »

With respect, I would contend that it is more important to excavate material properly, perhaps waiting for some future date when technological advances are widespread, and therefore gain vast amounts of info than to dig it all up now and gain comparatively little.

The techniques used today in archaeology would be unrecognisable to someone working in the area in the 70s. When I first started digging in the late 90s all our dating was C14. Now because of the huge reduction in price it's all AMS dating. Techniques change for the better and it would be common practice on non-rescue digs to leave areas for future excavation.

But if nobody found it using a metal detector then it would remain hidden and might never be found at all.
Surely if the finder were educated properly and told what to do when he/she finds something then it would be a win / win situation.

cfuserkildare

To the rest of Europe, it would make more sense to learn a little about our past than just to ignore it and find out in 10 years time that it was destroyed by a farmer or property developer who didn't want the hastle of reporting it.

This is happening on a regular basis.

We have already lost so much it is very dispiriting.

I know of several good examples, ie

The original Dublin to Galway road running through Celbridge, 10 years in the courts and the property developer still was allowed to build a bunch of houses on it.

Or the extension built in St Patricks park in Celbridge that uncovered skeletal remains but didn't report it because it would have suspended or even halted building progress.

The more we leave alone for the future, the less will be found safe in the future. ( If you get my drift)

Cheers.

robp

cfuserkildare wrote: »

To the rest of Europe, it would make more sense to learn a little about our past than just to ignore it and find out in 10 years time that it was destroyed by a farmer or property developer who didn't want the hastle of reporting it.

This is happening on a regular basis.

We have already lost so much it is very dispiriting.

I know of several good examples, ie

The original Dublin to Galway road running through Celbridge, 10 years in the courts and the property developer still was allowed to build a bunch of houses on it.

Or the extension built in St Patricks park in Celbridge that uncovered skeletal remains but didn't report it because it would have suspended or even halted building progress.

The more we leave alone for the future, the less will be found safe in the future. ( If you get my drift)

Cheers.

Developments do find a lot of archaeology and for that very reason the NRA archaeologist or local archaeologist decides what needs to be done before planning permission is granted. Just because the development went ahead doesn't mean the archaeology was unrecorded. The NRA road programme have enormously increased our archaeological knowledge though road building for instance.

tayto lover wrote: »

But if nobody found it using a metal detector then it would remain hidden and might never be found at all.
Surely if the finder were educated properly and told what to do when he/she finds something then it would be a win / win situation.

What needs to be done is a proper licensed scientific archaeological excavation. A metal detector can only identify what they found once it is lifted from the earth but by that time it is too late to do a proper excavation. Most of the time they find only find modern junk metal. It would be impossible to ask a metal detector to call an archaeologist to do a licensed excavation everytime they hear a beep. Who would pay for it.

dr gonzo

Clearly there is still a lot of confusion around this issue, so lets discuss these points.

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Can I just get a little clarification on this then,

It is more important for us to leave everything undisturbed and learn nothing, than it is to learn a little about them!!!

Yes, because then if its found in the future we might get the more complete record rather then the absolutely minimal record that can be derived from a metal detectorist pulling the object out of the ground. Its worth noting here that archaeologists often deliberately forgo invasive methods themselves.

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Such a sad situation.

Is it? Is it truly sad that the law places the undiscovered heritage of this country in the hands of the only people who know how to maximise the amount of knowledge that can be derived.

cfuserkildare wrote: »

No wonder most Irish know nothing about they're own land prior to 1916.

We have a stunningly good understanding of the Irish past. Thousands of books, theses, websites etc derived almost entirely from the archaeological record. Whether or not the Irish people choose to go and learn any of it is their own prerogative.

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Such a pompous attitude towards knowledge.

Its not pompous but it is exclusionist. It is in your best interest as much as mine that you allow professionals to search for archaeology. Its great that youre interested but the repercussions of your hobby, with regard to the artefact itself, instantly removes a substantial number of possible analysis methods; you destroy the possibility of a more complete record. Who is that helping, I ask?

tayto lover wrote: »

But if nobody found it using a metal detector then it would remain hidden and might never be found at all.
Surely if the finder were educated properly and told what to do when he/she finds something then it would be a win / win situation.

As I've said already in this thread, metal detecting returns just one type of archaeological material, and based on that point alone metal detectors are dangerous, as they bias the archaeological record heavily in favour of metal objects. More importantly though the record that surrounds the object is obliterated because, like I and robp have said, you are forced to pull an object out of the ground just to see what it is.

As for educating users, the point at which a metal detector enthusiast would be capable of removing an object out of the ground to an acceptably thorough degree would be the point that they became archaeologists themselves. The skills required to maximise the data potential of any object (not to mention a myriad of other concerns, such as conservation) are vast. There is no crash course that will prepare a hobbyist. It may be seen as elitist but it is a fact. If you are not an archaeologist, and have had no training as one, then you are incapable of removing an archaeological object from the ground without substantial destruction taking place.

Do whats right for our heritage and leave the metal detectors at home.

Dr Strange

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Or the extension built in St Patricks park in Celbridge that uncovered skeletal remains but didn't report it because it would have suspended or even halted building progress.
.

This is actually a serious offence under the Coroner's Act. In cases of human remains the Coronoer's Act is the foremost act and has precedence even over the National Monuments Act. As soon as it has been established that the remains are of no forensic interest AND the Coroner is aware of this and has given his/her OK, the case falls under the National Monuments Act.

In either case, not reporting the discovery of human remains is a serious obmission!

cfuserkildare

Hi Preusse,

Yes it is a serious ommision, but happens on such a scale that we are losing as much as we are finding.

How many farmers have flattened a mound in a field, or dragged away a large stone that was in the middle of a potential pasture site.

If we leave them for the future, then we will lose them forever.

As a side point, is there any attempt to conserve Carbury Castle? or will it be left to fall down? just to give the future generations comething to do?
An important site that dates back thousands of years and it is being left to fall apart.

Sad.

Fighting Irish

slowburner wrote: »

You just don't get it do you?
Unlike some posters here whose interest in Archaeology arose out of similar misguided beliefs.
They spent time in this forum and they learned some stuff.
They grew up.
Now they are highly valued contributors.
You refuse to grow up, refuse to learn and you are a member of an ethos which seriously threatens the Archaeology of this island.
Your contributions here are unpleasant, unwelcome and deeply distasteful to people who have a genuine interest in the history and prehistory of this island.

You leave me with no option but to hand out a 2 week ban.

:pac:

slowburner

Fighting Irish wrote: »

:pac:

One month ban. Next time is a permanent ban from this forum.

Auraelium

DP

JimmyOats

http://www.archaeology.ie/News/Name,15124,en.html

Prometheus

Friend of mine regularly metal detects at Courtown beach, Wexford and wanted to know is he breaking the law?
He mainly finds small quantities of money, I know this has been done to death but is he breaking the law just doing this? I could'nt answer the question, the law seems to just relate to archaeology.
Apologies mods if this is over!

maxmo

No problem on the beach.
Big problem anywhere else!

dr gonzo

Traditionally beaches were given as the one loophole for the national monuments legislation on metal detecting, however beaches, and their immediate surroundings, are very often locations of significant archaeological settlements and features. Take for example the highly ephemeral remains of Mesolithic Ireland. The settlement sites of Belderrig, Co. Mayo, and Ferriters Cove, Co. Kerry were both discovered on the shoreline. Similarly the Meso midden in Sutton, like many middens, is also on the coast. Obviously the nature of an MD means that artefacts from these periods will not be found, however a detectorist could easily accidentally dig into these layers.

The point is you cant metal detect in the vicinity of known archaeological monuments, and beaches are often included in that definition. It is essentially a given due to the comprehensive nature of national monuments legislation that metal dectecting is effectively 100% illegal.

Besides all that I cannot stress enough just how appallingly destructive metal detecting is when archaeology is found. I'm not suggesting that this is deliberate, but even well meaning people do incredible amounts of damage to the archaeological record in the pursuit of this hobby. Tell your friend to protect himself and the material heritage of this country by putting the metal detector away.

slowburner

maxmo wrote: »

No problem on the beach.
Big problem anywhere else!

WRONG...

It really can't be said any more plainly than this:

if anyone digs for an archaeological object without a license - they are breaking the law.

People think there might be a way around the law because they think that what they are searching for is not an archaeological object.
They might believe that a 2005 coin, a ring pull or piece of tinfoil is not an archaeological object - but they would be wrong.
Any object which can tell us something about the past - ancient or recent - is technically an archaeological object and therefore subject to the law.
It is understandable that this might be difficult information to take on board but it is important for would be metal-detectorists in Ireland to know that every ounce of the law is designed to crush this pursuit.
There are no loopholes.
There are no grey areas.
You simply cannot use a metal detector to search for archaeological objects without a license.

Here is the relevant extract from the recently published guidelines:

5. What is an “Archaeological Object”?

The term ‘archaeological object’ is defined in the National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004 and has a broad meaning in terms of type and age of objects. Commonplace objects of relatively recent date such as coins and militaria, including 20th century material, may fall within the category of ‘archaeological object’. Such objects may come within the terms of the definition regardless of their date and degree of antiquity. It may not be apparent until an object has been dug up that it is an archaeological object. In that event, the damage will already have been done and an offence is likely to have been committed.

The guidelines can (and should) be read in full here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85779958&postcount=3

maxmo

20th century.we're in the 21st.

slowburner

maxmo wrote: »

20th century.we're in the 21st.

If you mean by this jibe that the laws on metal detecting have been changed, you are very much mistaken.

You need to read this thread and more importantly, you should make an effort to understand it.

What is missing in the minds of the metal detecting fraternity that they seem unable to comprehend the law?

Jakub25

New guidelines will not stop “Amateur Metal Detectors Association Of Ireland” (AMDAI)

http://www.thejournal.ie/metal-detectors-treasure-1017051-Jul2013/?eht

AMDAI applauds the minister for confirming that the use of a metal detector can NOT determine if an object is of archaeological interest and therefore the user can NOT be considered to have intentionally searched for it.
AMDAI supports the minister in protecting our heritage and all members must report any finds which may be of archaeological interest to the relevant authoroties.
However, He would have been much wiser to take on board the advice and offer of discussions which we suggested to him over a period of several months. His intention was to publish a guideline which HE claims would be “clear and understandable to the public” . Instead he has opened the entire thing up to legal debate again. Silly, Silly Boys !
Article 1, last paragraph.
“Random searches with metal detectors cannot determine whether a find is of archaeological importance or if it is a recent discard. ”
They then Stumble on to the next bit of nonsense where metal detecting is not mentioned at all.. it’s just aimed at any person digging anything !
Article 5, last paragraph.
“It may not be apparent until an object has been dug up that it is an archaeological object. In that event, the damage will already have been done and an offence is likely to have been committed.”
So a person has as much chance of disturbing objects of interest whilst planting onions or burying their dead parrot , These will also require a public advice publication or it will be considered as Prejudice in the highest order by our association and its members.
Legal action against this will be taken in due course.

slowburner

slowburner wrote: »

What is missing in the minds of the metal detecting fraternity that they seem unable to comprehend the law?

“archaeological object” means any chattel* whether in a manufactured or partly manufactured or an unmanufactured state which by reason of the archaeological interest attaching thereto or of its association with any Irish historical event or person has a value substantially greater than its intrinsic (including artistic) value, and the said expression includes ancient human, animal or plant remains;

(*movable property)

This is from a link supplied by the AMDAI. By linking to this all encompassing definition, they have clearly demonstrated their complete inability to comprehend the law.


The AMDAI are in the business of selling sell metal detectors.
It is in their interest to create the false impression that metal detecting is legal.

slowburner

maxmo wrote: »

No problem on the beach.
Big problem anywhere else!

maxmo wrote: »

20th century.we're in the 21st.

A northern Irish visitor was successfully prosecuted for using a metal detector on Laytown beach recently.

maxmo

Source?

slowburner

Eamonn P. Kelly of the NMI.

maxmo

Sorry,have looked on NMI site and E P Kelly and no sign of it.

Simon.d

maxmo wrote: »

Sorry,have looked on NMI site and E P Kelly and no sign of it.

Link here: http://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/metal-detector-man-on-beach-is-fined-500-27122324.html

slowburner

Something to reflect on.

Larry Cissna sold some $60,000 in tickets for his Grand National Relic Shootout — an artifact-hunting competition — at Flowerdew Hundred. The shootout took place in early March, and participants walked away with 8,961 artifacts dating from the Civil War or before.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/opinion/open-season-on-history.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

How the right thinking folk of Virginia must envy our laws. How many artefacts will be looted before their laws catch up, if ever?

fiacha

slowburner wrote: »

How many artefacts will be looted before their laws catch up, if ever?

About as many as will rot in the ground or be destroyed by machines before ever being seen by an archaeologist :P

When I heard that there was an updated policy published last week, I was expecting something more than a re-hash of the existing muddy law. The use / sale / possession of detectors should be either legal or illegal, regardless of where they are used or what they are being used to find.

Out of interest, what do the archaeologists think about a scheme that would use the amateur detectorists to assist with surveys of building works / sites subject to planning permission etc. Their work would be supervised by the on site archaeologist. I'm sure they would be happy to pay an annual detecting license fee to help cover the costs of the scheme.
I've heard of similar things being done in the states where the MDer flagged signals without digging them. This archaeologist then used this to prioritise areas to dig. Might also be useful to have someone there to recovery objects from ground / soil that has already been moved by machinery (i'm assuming that the context of the item would no longer be of concern because it had been recently moved / disturbed)

Not looking to kick off the whole debate again, it's just something that popped into my head when reading the thread.:D

Meathlass

fiacha wrote: »

Out of interest, what do the archaeologists think about a scheme that would use the amateur detectorists to assist with surveys of building works / sites subject to planning permission etc. Their work would be supervised by the on site archaeologist. I'm sure they would be happy to pay an annual detecting license fee to help cover the costs of the scheme.

I've heard of similar things being done in the states where the MDer flagged signals without digging them. This archaeologist then used this to prioritise areas to dig. Might also be useful to have someone there to recovery objects from ground / soil that has already been moved by machinery (i'm assuming that the context of the item would no longer be of concern because it had been recently moved / disturbed)D

Plenty of unemployed archaeologists at the moment who would love to be paid to do survey work and EIAs. Can't see them wanting anyone to do this work for free which will further contract the employment market.

Meathlass

fiacha wrote: »

Might also be useful to have someone there to recovery objects from ground / soil that has already been moved by machinery (i'm assuming that the context of the item would no longer be of concern because it had been recently moved / disturbed)

Of course this will only pick up metal artefacts which are only a small portion of those generally recovered so the archaeologists would still have to search the entire spoilheap anyway for non-metal artefacts.

Fighting Irish

slowburner wrote: »

Something to reflect on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/opinion/open-season-on-history.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

How the right thinking folk of Virginia must envy our laws. How many artefacts will be looted before their laws catch up, if ever?

And how many artifacts will be destroyed before they are found?

fiacha

Meathlass wrote: »

Of course this will only pick up metal artefacts which are only a small portion of those generally recovered so the archaeologists would still have to search the entire spoilheap anyway for non-metal artefacts.

Yeah, I realise that they are interested in much more than the shiny stuff that all of the MDers on the Internet forums seem to covet most. I'd love to actually get to look over the shoulders of a team on one of these surveys. I got to sneek a few chats with the guys working on some burials in a local building site. I never got to observe much as the site security wouldn't let me near them, but it appeared to be equal parts fascinating and mind numbing

I'm just wondering if there is any way for MDers here to contribute something towards "real" archaeology, as I'm sure many of them are interested in more than treasure hunting. Obviously re-training as an Archaeologist is one way:rolleyes:

It's clear that they have no intention of stopping their hobby. unless the legislation is updated to ban detecting outright, they are just going to keep stockpiling artifacts recovered while "not intentionally" searching for them. Sometimes, you just have to laugh at our laws.

As an outsider (with what I admit is a simplistic understanding of the issue) it seems to me that it is in everyones interest to find a solution sooner rather than later.

slowburner

fiacha wrote: »

I'm just wondering if there is any way for MDers here to contribute something towards "real" archaeology, as I'm sure many of them are interested in more than treasure hunting. Obviously re-training as an Archaeologist is one way:rolleyes:

It's clear that they have no intention of stopping their hobby. unless the legislation is updated to ban detecting outright, they are just going to keep stockpiling artifacts recovered while "not intentionally" searching for them. Sometimes, you just have to laugh at our laws.

As an outsider (with what I admit is a simplistic understanding of the issue) it seems to me that it is in everyones interest to find a solution sooner rather than later.

We certainly don't have to laugh at our laws. Irish law in this matter is the envy of many countries.

With regard to contributing to archaeology: metal detectorists shot themselves in the foot on this a long time ago and they keep pulling the trigger.
Any chance of amateurs in possession of a metal detector becoming involved in genuine archaeology disappeared long ago.
It simply would not be possible to select and distinguish between those with a genuine interest and those who are there ultimately for personal gain.
It's a shame, but that's just the way it is.

That said there are many, many people with a genuine interest in archaeology who don't feel the need to dig stuff up.
There are plenty of other ways to get involved. The two primary bodies charged with surveys and cataloguing are inundated with work and grossly understaffed. Field studies are always welcome.
There are plenty of other ways to add to the knowledge bank without digging up lumps of metal and pocketing them.

I get tired of this vain plea from metal detectorists. Really tired. I'm tired of the lie that they really want to 'save' artefacts.
I'm tired of their refusal to understand the law.
I'm tired of the damage they've caused that I've seen far too often.
I'm tired of the fact that they do not understand that the law is not going to change.
I'm tired of the fact that sometimes I have to worry when genuine people here post up interesting material, knowing that lurking metal detectorists will use as it a 'lead'.

If they genuinely want to contribute to the national store rather than their own pockets then ditch the metal detectors and get involved in some other way.

blue diver

I HAVE 3 metal detectors WHAT DO I DO WITH THEM NOW HAND THEM TO THE GUARDS OR BRING THEM BACK TO THE SHOP I BOUGHT THEM IN DUBLIN

wayoutwest

blue diver - WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH ALL THE ILLEGAL TREASURE THAT YOU MUST OF FOUND WITH THEM ?

fiacha

blue diver wrote: »

I HAVE 3 metal detectors WHAT DO I DO WITH THEM NOW HAND THEM TO THE GUARDS OR BRING THEM BACK TO THE SHOP I BOUGHT THEM IN DUBLIN

Sell them to a UK based user on one of the UK forums.

I have one sitting in the attic for close to a year now. I bought it from the lad behind AMDAI based purely on the information presented on his site. I should have known better and read up on the legislation fully.

In my opinion, their aim is to convince more people to break the law by telling them they are OK to accidentally find an artifact while searching for modern metal. They think that the more people they have in their membership, it's only a matter of time until the laws are changed in their favor. Take a look at their forum and you'll see that they are all after gold / silver and historic artifacts (I'm not suggesting that they are selling them).

I used my detector three times to recover lost jewelry and keys from my cousins riding centre arena (graded sand mix shipped in). I'm going to hold on to it as it's only a matter of time before her or her students loose something again.

I'll be honest and say that it is great fun searching for the right target, and I'd love to be able to search beaches / parks etc for modern coins. I know I would be able to restrict myself to surface only finds, but others wouldn't and it would be impossible for the authorities to monitor / enforce the law. The only option is for the Gov to ban metal detectors completely. It doesn't seem fair, but it's the only way to remove any "loopholes" the treasure hunters see in the legislation.

Metal Detecting is only one of many many activities damaging our heritage, but you only need to look at a picture of a field that has been covered by a detectorist to see the mess left behind for any Archaeologists that may follow.
There is so much metal in our fields that they can end up digging a 4" - 10" deep hole every few feet. It doesn't look like much from above, but think of all the layers that have been disturbed under the surface.

blue diver

i have just came on here and asked a question and once again i am being bullied by tugs.i don't come on this form much and ask for help but when i do i seem to get a mouth full from some one not much help here only bullies
lecturing me about big holes and braking the law for my kids finding rubbish small minded people worrying about our past and our future is going down the pan.:mad:
ill just bury my sad head in the sand like everyone else

i take it tank a lot for the help :mad:

i have 3 detectors i bought for my kids off a shop off Henry st dublin they have used them on the beach once or twice and found noting but rubbish and a few rusty euro.

so ill take my self and my kids and go in to hiding :mad:

dr gonzo

blue diver wrote: »

small minded people worrying about our past and our future is going down the pan.:mad:

Small minded is right, but it isnt us. Your attitude leaves me speechless. Dont you realise that this is the very moment, when the salad days are over, that preservation of our past is most important. As Ive said in other threads, archaeology is not vestige of the good times, all of us have a duty of care to both the materials remains of Ireland's past, which are irreplaceable , as well future Irish people, who would not think too highly of us letting people loose on a dwindling archaeological record just because there was a recession on at the time! There are always economic ups and downs in the world, its truly unfortunate for those caught out by it, but to think that we shouldnt be bothered about archaeology anymore because of the current financial state of the country is just an insane notion.

The problem with you and your kids using metal detectors is not what you have found, its what you might. Continuing this road will ultimately lead to the destruction of archaeological contexts, which we all suffer for. You cant keep the artefact, and ownership of metal detectors is illegal in the first place so I highly recommend you gets your kids interested in a different hobby.