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is there such a thing as a selfless act?
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David Foster Wallace has an excellent short story on the difficulties involved in actually performing a selfless act titled "The Devil is a Busy Man". Its about a guy who gives money to a friend but doesn't want them to know he did because then the act is no longer selfless as it appears he was only doing it to look good. At the end of the story he despite his best efforts he unconsciously makes it evident that he was the person responsible for this act of charity therefore negating the selflessness.
It really doesn't matter if anyone else knows about the attempted selfless act as the very reason for doing it is selfish in itself because the person doing is receiving emotional feedback of 'feeling good' or in other words 'Payment in full' making the whole episode non selfless.
I would say that it is an impossibility to perform a selfless act as all that we do is for our own satisfaction and never is it for any other reason.
I am searching for a loophole but as yet have not found one.
All living thinking creatures are driven by the desire to experience.
Where you see suffering you will feel bad and in turn you will wish to feel good so with that you may try to end the suffering or simply turn away,which ever makes you feel better,No matter the choice,you will satisfy your need to feel good again but if you choose to end the suffering then you also help another to feel good which could start a kind of domino of "Passing it on" but it all began by an act of self satisfaction.
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It does matter. If the act is not acknowledged then there is no emotional feedback. If there is no emotional feedback no solace or reputations can be gained therefore the act is wholly intrinsic rather than extrinsic.
The emotional feedback is in the one performing the act,
What purpose would there be in doing anything without first wanting to do the said thing?
Wanting is a need for self satisfaction.
Why give the money if you have no reason or desire to do so?
In giving the money he has satisfied his need to do something good which is a selfish act because he gets the emotional feedback of feeling good for what he has done regardless of it being witnessed or not..
(trust me,this has had me in turmoil for years) 0 -
The emotional feedback is in the one performing the act,
What purpose would there be in doing anything without first wanting to do the said thing?
Wanting is a need for self satisfaction?
Why give the money if you have no reason or desire to do so?
In giving the money he has satisfied his need to do something good which is a selfish act because he gets the emotional feedback of feeling good for what he has done regardless of it being witnessed or not..
(trust me,this has had me in turmoil for years)
Have you read any books on stoicism?0 -
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Have you read any books on stoicism?
I have read maybe three books in my life,one was of mice and men the others I can't remember,most of what i know comes from sitting and thinking and having to listen to my well read father as i was growing but i am aware of Stoicism having something to do with lacking emotion and that would be a good argument for what i am talking about in the selflessness as it would imply no feedback but if we neither felt good nor bad then we would have only one need and that is instinct of survival ,which would be the desire to continue which is again self satisfaction,
To be without desire would simply be without purpose and existence then becomes meaningless.
one more thing,thank you for this conversation as i am tired of sitting in my own head and i am learning from this how to better communicate with others,
Right now is the perfect example of "Created Perception",you and i both perceive our own reality and not what actually maybe,we both feel as though we are making perfect sense but the message is not quite getting through, we are at two ends Plato's Cave 0 -
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aaronjumper wrote: »What if you hate helping people is it selfless then?
Hate it or like it,do it or don't,all of these remain you satisfying your desire.
I hate working but i do it because it pays and that helps me to satisfy my need or desire to survive,i hate helping but i do it for approval which satisfies my need to do what i think is the right thing to do. 0 -
Hate it or like it,do it or don't,all of these remain you satisfying your desire.
I hate working but i do it because it pays and that helps me to satisfy my need or desire to survive,i hate helping but i do it for approval which satisfies my need to do what i think is the right thing to do.
How is doing something you hate satisfying a desire?
Doing a job to earn money is not really the same thing.
Also I don't hate helping people just throwing it in there as some people do hate it.0 -
crazy cabbage wrote: »the old woman is happier. The boy is happier. If he didn't help the old woman then everyone would be worse off.
" Doing a good thing makes you feel good "
but also makes the people around you feel good. Makes the world a better place. I dont think that that is selfish.
Right there,you do it because it makes you feel good and that is your payment,you got something for doing something which makes it non selfless. 0 -
I have read maybe three books in my life,one was of mice and men the others I can't remember,most of what i know comes from sitting and thinking and having to listen to my well read father as i was growing but i am aware of Stoicism having something to do with lacking emotion and that would be a good argument for what i am talking about in the selflessness as it would imply no feedback but if we neither felt good nor bad then we would have only one need and that is instinct of survival ,which would be the desire to continue which is again self satisfaction,
To be without desire would simply be without purpose and existence then becomes meaningless.
one more thing,thank you for this conversation as i am tired of sitting in my own head and i am learning from this how to better communicate with others,
Right now is the perfect example of "Created Perception",you and i both perceive our own reality and not what actually maybe,we both feel as though we are making perfect sense but the message is not quite getting through, we are at two ends Plato's Cave
I would encourage you to read DFW's Brief Interviews with Hideous Men. It examines exactly what you are philosophizing about through the short story form.
If you look at the quote in my first post from DFW he emphasizes the continuity of the selfless acts. If you can do it for years and years well any emotional gains will have long be diminished from diminishing marginal returns. i would agree a one off selfless act is simply an act one those to gain some intrinsic gain whereas a continued and unending (bar death) will to do good would be considered selfless. The only exception would be those driven by religious fervor as they are doing it for their god.0 -
aaronjumper wrote: »How is doing something you hate satisfying a desire?
Doing a job to earn money is not really the same thing.
Also I don't hate helping people just throwing it in there as some people do hate it.
Why do it?
What purpose have you for doing in the first place?
why do what you hate?
ps.
my reply was a metaphor,i don't hate work nor helping others,it was an example. 0 -
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Why do it?
What purpose have you for doing in the first place?
why do what you hate?
ps.
my reply was a metaphor,i don't hate work nor helping others,it was an example.
Maybe a friend or family member asked, maybe it is easier to quickly help them on their way than watch them falling over themselves trying to do it.
Or maybe even though you hate it you are not so selfish as to leave them to their plight and help out anyway.0 -
aaronjumper wrote: »Maybe a friend or family member asked, maybe it is easier to quickly help them on their way than watch them falling over themselves trying to do it.
Or maybe even though you hate it you are not so selfish as to leave them to their plight and help out anyway.
Again,why help in the first place?
What reason have you for helping?
How will it make you feel if you help?
You do it all to satisfy your need/desire to do it,this is then self satisfaction,it makes it easier for you in not having to watch them falling over themselves because watching this makes you uncomfortable and this is not a feeling you want so you look for comfort by doing and are then satisfied,which makes it a self satisfying act,
Selfishness is a necessity for without it you would have no purpose,think of what it would be like to have no desire what so ever,no need for anything,not even breathing,
Have you ever just sat there and realized that you have forgotten to breath and how you are then driven to take a deep breath because you desire to survive and not die?
An auto response of the body but it is still your need to live,again self satisfying. 0 -
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