Another problem! It isn't 3.5 tonnes after all...

outstation42

The engineer's report said 3.5 but the vehicle says 4.5. We find out now as the van went in for DoE, it has apparently only 'minor issues' so no trouble there it would seem.

It was a 16 (I think) seater bus and is now 5 seater, two berth, tiny water tank, no toilet... My partner has only a modern license and I have no license at all- is the only option paying to do C1 training and testing? :eek:

outstation42

And, yes, it would seem we are very naive going just on the word of the seller and the figure on the engineer's report- we knew nothing of checking on the vehicle.

Can we do this:
http://www.svtech.co.uk/motorhomes.html
What is it exactly? (No idea how we would get there either).

niloc1951

SVTech are approved by the RSA for up and down plating.

It is not necessary for them to see the vehicle, they just need chassis numbers etc.
Down plating is very straight forward as they don't have to consider issues such as tyre, suspension and brakes specifications which are important when up plating.

Give them a call, they have a reputation of being very helpful and knowledgeable. AFAIK their fee is in the region of £200 which includes the new weights plate.

outstation42

Well, that would be excellent! Although apparently the chassis numbers are far from clear, or they couldn't find them, which garage cited as another problem. Would we be able to trace the numbers elsewhere (manufacturer etc)?

Incidentally my partner seems to remember of the figures he heard today that it started (Ford transit) as 2.9 and then up to 4.5 when it became a bus... Conversion details have it as mass in service 3.5, pre-conversion 3.5 and post conversion 3.5...

paddyp

Call westward scania or one of the other big truck places on the nsai list http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Automotive-Certification/Type-Approval/Approved-Test-Centers.aspx ask if they can downrate it for you I saw they had a plate engraver and plates when I was in for the DOE.

Whats the base vehicle?

outstation42

Thank you for the link/ info.

Its a Ford Transit LWB 230 TD 03DR- does that explain?? I got the description from Motorcheck. Its high and rather bus like and was used as a 14 seater (it had wheelchair spaces); owned by a (UK) council perhaps.

Found out new weight (for as a bus) was 4.25 not 4.5... This be the maximum? Still a bit concerned in case it actually does weigh more than 3.5 encumbered. We plan to ask garage if they will take to Balbriggan weigh station and then we can see where we stand.

paddyp

outstation42 wrote: »

Thank you for the link/ info.

Its a Ford Transit LWB 230 TD 03DR- does that explain?? I got the description from Motorcheck. Its high and rather bus like and was used as a 14 seater (it had wheelchair spaces); owned by a (UK) council perhaps.

Found out new weight (for as a bus) was 4.25 not 4.5... This be the maximum? Still a bit concerned in case it actually does weigh more than 3.5 encumbered. We plan to ask garage if they will take to Balbriggan weigh station and then we can see where we stand.

The doe center will have weighted the axles to ensure they're not overloaded. Sounds like a uk welfare bus a heavy beastie indeed fabulous base vehicle for conversion though. I looked at one in longford it was about 2800kg unladen but I reckoned the seating hand rails, wheelchair lift etc was at least 300kg of that so as long as you haven't made all your furniture out of 3/4 inch mdf at 95kg a sheet you should be ok.

outstation42

The garage we used said no way.

Firstly because they can't find the chassis number so can't DoE it

Secondly because they can only DoE on original weight plates (which this wouldn't be anyway as the original was for if it was a van not a bus). Apparently it is nonsense that you can down plate. Called another garage who I know deal with plenty of conversions and they say to call on Monday to speak to someone else who might know more but as per issue two they are not confident.

We've had this camper since last July and the last owners had it insured and going with no hassle (hadn't DoE'd but its not in trouble mechanically garage have said). They did tell us that it was 3.5 which they perhaps should not have done, but on all paperwork to do with conversion etc it is 3.5. We've been so looking forward to using it asap, so disappointed.

niloc1951

outstation42 wrote: »

The garage we used said no way.

Firstly because they can't find the chassis number so can't DoE it

Secondly because they can only DoE on original weight plates (which this wouldn't be anyway as the original was for if it was a van not a bus). Apparently it is nonsense that you can down plate. Called another garage who I know deal with plenty of conversions and they say to call on Monday to speak to someone else who might know more but as per issue two they are not confident.

We've had this camper since last July and the last owners had it insured and going with no hassle (hadn't DoE'd but its not in trouble mechanically garage have said). They did tell us that it was 3.5 which they perhaps should not have done, but on all paperwork to do with conversion etc it is 3.5. We've been so looking forward to using it asap, so disappointed.

Who ever told you "it is nonsense that you can down plate" does not know what they are talking about.

Check the SVTech website and if you talk to them they will confirm that it is a regular practice.

I also have it in writing from the RSA that certificates and revised plates from 'approved persons' (SVTech being one of such) are acceptable.

As regards the VIN number, you really do need to find where that is on the chassis as it's the 'proof of identity' of the vehicle. Apart from being on the plate it should also be stamped directly on vehicle/chassis somewhere.

outstation42

We have spoken to SVTech. or at least my partner has and they seemed very casual about it.Even the garage who I know deal with lots of campers (Motorcaravan club refer to them) were saying no until we pushed- and then 'call back Monday'.

Do anyone now who we might ask about where the VIN is that might have an idea for our particular vehicle?

Oh, and my partner asks how old your letter from RSA? And how we might go about getting one...

paddyp

Vin on transit should both on the vin plate under the bonnet and from memory stamped on the inside of the drivers wheel arch behind the wheel maybe been covered with stone chip.

niloc1951

outstation42 wrote: »

We have spoken to SVTech. or at least my partner has and they seemed very casual about it.Even the garage who I know deal with lots of campers (Motorcaravan club refer to them) were saying no until we pushed- and then 'call back Monday'.

Do anyone now who we might ask about where the VIN is that might have an idea for our particular vehicle?

Oh, and my partner asks how old your letter from RSA? And how we might go about getting one...

I raised issue of up and down plating as a stakeholder during the consultation process prior to the implementation of roadworthiness testing of motor-caravans. Bearing in mind that it is a common practice in other countries throughout Europe.
I distinctly remember a reply indicating that the the upward or downward revision of a motorhomes GVW (MAW) was acceptable once it was carried out by a 'suitably qualified person'.
It now being over three years on I am unable to locate same in my email, but a call to Justin Martin at the RSA who was dealing with the issue at the time and was very helpful might useful.

outstation42

paddyp wrote: »

Vin on transit should both on the vin plate under the bonnet and from memory stamped on the inside of the drivers wheel arch behind the wheel maybe been covered with stone chip.

Checked the wheel arch the other day and under bonnet will be checked today (I didn't have keys and its miles away).

niloc1951 wrote: »

I raised issue of up and down plating as a stakeholder during the consultation process prior to the implementation of roadworthiness testing of motor-caravans. Bearing in mind that it is a common practice in other countries throughout Europe.
I distinctly remember a reply indicating that the the upward or downward revision of a motorhomes GVW (MAW) was acceptable once it was carried out by a 'suitably qualified person'.
It now being over three years on I am unable to locate same in my email, but a call to Justin Martin at the RSA who was dealing with the issue at the time and was very helpful might useful.

Hmm, my partner was given the impression that until recently it would ok but now this has changed.... Tried RSA today and said they would call back but no reply. Might try your contact, cheers.

outstation42

My partner has spoken to the RSA and someone there spoke to Justin Martin and someone will get back to us. I was a bit disappointed that they took our address and may be posting this info- the camper is/ was a massive investment for us, I want the info now! No indication given whether this was a positive or a negative....

niloc1951

outstation42 wrote: »

My partner has spoken to the RSA and someone there spoke to Justin Martin and someone will get back to us. I was a bit disappointed that they took our address and may be posting this info- the camper is/ was a massive investment for us, I want the info now! No indication given whether this was a positive or a negative....

Keep the chin up. Do remember that what you are trying to do is a recognised practice. It may be 'new ground' for the RSA who up to now have dealt in the goods vehicle environment where altering a vehicles GVW may be uncommon, but it is relatively common for motorhomes, as witnessed by the SVTech site where it is given particular mention.

All motorhomes based on Light Goods Vehicle 3.5t chassis's which are now rated over 3.5t have been through the GVW uprating process either during their build or as an after-market service by an authorised company like SVTech.

Down rating to 3.5t is also not uncommon. It is most usually carried out because owners, due to health reasons, fail to pass the medical for Category C1 Licence and become restricted to a category B Licence or a purchaser in the second-hand market may only have a B Licence.

outstation42

niloc1951 wrote: »

Keep the chin up. Do remember that what you are trying to do is a recognised practice. It may be 'new ground' for the RSA who up to now have dealt in the goods vehicle environment where altering a vehicles GVW may be uncommon, but it is relatively common for motorhomes, as witnessed by the SVTech site where it is given particular mention.

All motorhomes based on Light Goods Vehicle 3.5t chassis's which are now rated over 3.5t have been through the GVW uprating process either during their build or as an after-market service by an authorised company like SVTech.

Down rating to 3.5t is also not uncommon. It is most usually carried out because owners, due to health reasons, fail to pass the medical for Category C1 Licence and become restricted to a category B Licence or a purchaser in the second-hand market may only have a B Licence.

Hoping RSA are quick to confirm this then! I realize it would have been uprated already which makes it seem a little silly that they go on the bus version when it is no longer a bus...

Think we found the chassis number. Is it the last 7 (? can't recall now, it was read out to me) of the VIN? It was under the bonnet.

outstation42

"A vehicle’s DGVW (Design Gross Vehicle Weight) is a function of the vehicle specification as constructed and determined by the original manufacturer and should not be changed without the manufacturers (or his authorised distributors) written approval, documenting the precise details of the modification. In essence a vehicle’s DGVW should not be altered unless there are physical changes to the vehicle to reduce its payload carrying capacity, following which a new manufacturer’s statutory plate must be fitted."

Presume this is a no then. Full email isn't very nice in my opinion. No mention of it being a motorhome and just 'regarding your query about downplating so you can drive on a B license' without mention that as things stood this vehicle could have been driven on such a license for years (prior to DoE testing, it is 3.5 on the engineers report and clearly HAS been physically altered to reduce its payload).

:(:(

Email not sent by the contact mentioned above (who apparently they spoke to yesterday, this is from Brian Forde)

Edit- the 'knowledgeable person' at garage that deal with campers lots also say no.... Could try calling svtech with regards to Ireland but not sure what they could add if RSA say no....

niloc1951

outstation42 wrote: »

"A vehicle’s DGVW (Design Gross Vehicle Weight) is a function of the vehicle specification as constructed and determined by the original manufacturer and should not be changed without the manufacturers (or his authorised distributors) written approval, documenting the precise details of the modification. In essence a vehicle’s DGVW should not be altered unless there are physical changes to the vehicle to reduce its payload carrying capacity, following which a new manufacturer’s statutory plate must be fitted."

Presume this is a no then. Full email isn't very nice in my opinion. No mention of it being a motorhome and just 'regarding your query about downplating so you can drive on a B license' without mention that as things stood this vehicle could have been driven on such a license for years (prior to DoE testing, it is 3.5 on the engineers report and clearly HAS been physically altered to reduce its payload).

:(:(

Email not sent by the contact mentioned above (who apparently they spoke to yesterday, this is from Brian Forde)

Edit- the 'knowledgeable person' at garage that deal with campers lots also say no.... Could try calling svtech with regards to Ireland but not sure what they could add if RSA say no....

The RSA once said motohomes were goods vehicles, they even put it in writing SEE HERE until proved wrong by a campaign mounted on behalf of motorhome owners. They are after all not infallible.

They are again wrong on the issue of changing the DGVW. After-market uprating and downrating of a vehicles DGVW is an accepted practice when carried out and certified by a 'qualified' person or organisation. It is not the sole preserve of the original vehicle manufacturer, but as the RSA themselves have told you may be carried out by an 'authorised distributor'.

The RSA must accept the credentials, as do their equivalent organisations elsewhere in the EU, of SVTech and others who have manufacturer approval to modify their vehicles.

The RSA cannot deny, to an Irish resident, his/her entitlement to avail of a service readily available to the residence of another EU Member State which is in compliance with all relevant EU Directives, Directives which have been adopted by this country.

If I were currently in your position I would ask the RSA to justify their refusal to accept the credentials of SVTech to carry out the work you require, with particular reference as to why they see it necessary to interpret the relevent EU Directives differently to the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) in The UK and in Northern Ireland.

I, like many others, have a vested interest in your success in this matter as I am sure the day will come when I will no longer be able to renew my C1 licence and will need my motorhome downplated from its current 3,850Kg to 3,500kg in order that I may continue enjoying the use of it.

outstation42

Very helpful for our response- thank you!

outstation42

We decided to go in with a casual 'we wish to clarify you accept the services of svtech' type email. No reply and now thinking they may just ignore it. We will follow up with a phone call in a day or two.

Can anyone clarify whether it sounds like we have found the chassis number? As in does it sound like the right format for one?


"Think we found the chassis number. Is it the last 7 (? can't recall now, it was read out to me) of the VIN? It was under the bonnet."

galwaytt

outstation42 wrote: »

My partner has spoken to the RSA and someone there spoke to Justin Martin and someone will get back to us. I was a bit disappointed that they took our address and may be posting this info- the camper is/ was a massive investment for us, I want the info now! No indication given whether this was a positive or a negative....

I had a query on type approval of a trailer I needed and official response from them on, and they did come back to me by email, and it took.......a week ? Which is o.k. as they had to go to the legislation and give me an answer to stand over.

outstation42

Thanks. My partner (ever the optimist!) thinks we should plan for him taking the course/ test because there is no way the RSA will give us the go ahead so we can get DoE.

Don't suppose we could do it on its British plates? Guess we'd need to do DoE equivalent etc for that? As I presume if they accept it as x weight for all paperwork then here would have to as part of a Europe thing?

paddyp

outstation42 wrote: »

Thanks. My partner (ever the optimist!) thinks we should plan for him taking the course/ test because there is no way the RSA will give us the go ahead so we can get DoE.

Don't suppose we could do it on its British plates? Guess we'd need to do DoE equivalent etc for that? As I presume if they accept it as x weight for all paperwork then here would have to as part of a Europe thing?

In the end of the day its the plate under the bonnet that the police at home and abroad and doe testers will look at.

The doe testers manual says

"In the absence of a manufacturer’s plate showing
maximum permitted axle weights and design gross vehicle
weight, the owner/presenter must provide a letter from
the manufacturer showing the VIN, axle permitted weights
and DGVW"

Often the chassis has been uprated from 3500kg in the case of motorhomes. You could get a letter from the manufacturer and make the plate disappear for the doe :cool:

The svtech plate would cover you for police checks at home and abroad. To be honest the doe guys are not likely to notice that svtech plate is not a manufacturers plate as many motorhome some with two plate under the bonnet with one xxxed out. So it would probably cover you for that too.

outstation42

That is very interesting....

I now want to get over to that van and check all the numbers I can find! My partner says the numbers the garage were going on were the inside the vehicle.

When you say a letter from the manufacturer do you mean Ford? I think it was uprated when it was turned into a bus with much changes made then I would guess....

corktina

outstation42 wrote: »

We decided to go in with a casual 'we wish to clarify you accept the services of svtech' type email. No reply and now thinking they may just ignore it. We will follow up with a phone call in a day or two.

Can anyone clarify whether it sounds like we have found the chassis number? As in does it sound like the right format for one?


"Think we found the chassis number. Is it the last 7 (? can't recall now, it was read out to me) of the VIN? It was under the bonnet."

the VIN number is the chassis number....it should be on an alloy plate (try the footwells for this ) and also stamped into the chassis. On my Transit it's on the drivers side headlamp panel easily visible , but mine is an early model...

(I'm jumping through hoops getting mine re-registered t this time...not a happy time)

outstation42

corktina wrote: »

the VIN number is the chassis number....it should be on an alloy plate (try the footwells for this ) and also stamped into the chassis. On my Transit it's on the drivers side headlamp panel easily visible , but mine is an early model...

(I'm jumping through hoops getting mine re-registered t this time...not a happy time)

Hmmm. What was found was only around half of the VIN as given on paperwork.

Good luck.

corktina

well if it's stamped into the body work and agrees with the paperwork,that's probably it...any plate with numbers stamped into it visible?what about on top of the dash inside the windscreen?

Probably should ask on the motor forum or in the commercial forum if there is one as there will be more specialsed knowledge about there.

outstation42

Will look more (shame it isn't here with us). Its a restructured vehicle and am guessing this should date from manufacture so wouldn't be on the 'new' places. Apparently garage couldn't find it at all. What we found agrees with the paperwork but isn't the complete VIN as given on paperwork.

corktina

a set of stamps might help here... i just happen to have some as I'm sure others do

paddyp

One of the big ford commercial places would probably help you out with whats correct, I know the guys in C.A.B. are very helpful.

outstation42

corktina wrote: »

a set of stamps might help here... i just happen to have some as I'm sure others do

Not sure what this means.

paddyp wrote: »

One of the big ford commercial places would probably help you out with whats correct, I know the guys in C.A.B. are very helpful.

Who are C.A.B? We called svtech again today who confirmed they did this or people in the Republic with no problem. Then we called the RSA again and the man who emailed us was on a call, and then in a meeting....

My partner took a picture of the plate under the bonnet that includes the last 7 digits of the VIN, then another string of numbers on another line and it says 'white'. Was going to upload it but my computer internet connection is not behaving well enough.