Gerry Adams on RTE PrimeTime--29-05-13

Iwasfrozen

tdv123 wrote: »

Name one war in history were innocent civilians haven't been killed?

If you look at the %'s of civilians killed by the IRA it's the smallest of the belligerents during the conflict the IRA had the smallest amount by a good bit, with Loyalists murderer squads being by far the highest around 85-90% of the people they killed were civilians.

Except it wasn't a war. Only civil disobedience.

Chips Lovell

tdv123 wrote: »

If you look at the %'s of civilians killed by the IRA it's the smallest of the belligerents during the conflict the IRA had the smallest amount by a good bit, with Loyalists murderer squads being by far the highest around 85-90% of the people they killed were civilians.

Oh that makes it alright then.

delthedriver

michael999999 wrote: »

Ironic thread on the day we have fianna fail politicians having running gun battles on the streets of our country!

Is there a link?

michael999999

delthedriver wrote: »

Is there a link?

Sorry on the mobile so can't link one. But if you search for gayle killally the story will show up here on boards.ie

delthedriver

tdv123 wrote: »

That was not the provisionals. That was a splinter group who had little support from the public.

A splinter group? So that is acceptable?
It was still IRA! They murdered innocent people.

LordSutch

tdv123 wrote: »

That was not the provisionals. That was a splinter group who had little support from the public.

Neither did the PIRA.

delthedriver

michael999999 wrote: »

Sorry on the mobile so can't link one. But if you search for gayle killally the story will show up here on boards.ie

Cheers Michael,

Will have a look

SoulandForm

LordSutch wrote: »

Neither did the PIRA.

Yes they did otherwise they wouldnt have been able to sustain their campaign over so many years. Also I wouldnt underestimate sympathy if not support for today's armed militants.

LordSutch

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes they did otherwise they wouldnt have been able to sustain their campaign over so many years. Also I wouldnt underestimate sympathy if not support for today's armed militants.

The PIRA had very little support in the ROI, come to think of it, they were being chased up and down the Republic by the Gardai such was their penchant for doing bank jobs and post offices! In Northern Ireland the SDLP were the major Nationalist party, and they had the vast support of the Nationalist people behind them during the Troubles - FACT.

The PIRA had support within a minority, which was within a minority (in NI).

.jacksparrow.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Oh that makes it alright then.

Same way thousands who die in Iraq is ok because its "war".

tdv123

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Except it wasn't a war. Only civil disobedience.

You's are making mistakes. The Rising & War of Independence in that case was also civil disobedience. I don't want to go into a big history lesson but in 1916 when the "progressives" in London declined to issue a certificate of authenticity of support for these Irish "rebels" & their Proclamation of a Irish Republic. But like you they made the mistake, the mistake that the only certificate required was the one issued by the Irish people for the Irish freedom struggle. They didn't require the certificate from anybody else.

The country should never have been partitioned in the first place. A state who's slogan was "A Protestant State For Protestant People" spelled trouble from day one. And there will never be a full peace in N.Ireland for a long, long time whether it comes from loyalist or republican actions I can assure you of that.

Did you not read or hear about the Civil Rights marches in the 60's that were violently stopped by the RUC, The B-Specials & loyalists thugs? Did you miss that part? Oppressed people will rise & I can guarantee if the provos had not been formed the Unionist politicians would have continued with their ethnic cleansing of Catholics from the North.

Are you opposed to the decline of Rome? Should Britain not have been allowed to break away from the Roman Empire? Or does that not count because it doesn't suit the west brit agenda?

LordSutch

tdv123 wrote: »

The country should never have been partitioned in the first place.

So realistically, what would have happened if the island hadn't been partitioned?

delthedriver

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes they did otherwise they wouldnt have been able to sustain their campaign over so many years. Also I wouldnt underestimate sympathy if not support for today's armed militants.

Interesting, where is the sympathy and support coming from for today's armed
Militants?

tdv123

delthedriver wrote: »

A splinter group? So that is acceptable?
It was still IRA! They murdered innocent people.

Were did I say that? It wasn't the IRA it was a breakaway group who didn't have a clue what they were doing?

tdv123

LordSutch wrote: »

So realistically, what would have happened if the island hadn't been partitioned?

Ireland should have been recognized as an independent country end off. It was a democratic vote.

Also the British government capitulated to a terrorist threat from Ulster. Why was that ok?

Chips Lovell

tdv123 wrote: »

Ireland should have been recognized as an independent country end off. It was a democratic vote.

Read your history. It was. And Northern Ireland was given the choice of opting out. It chose to opt out.

delthedriver

tdv123 wrote: »

You's are making mistakes. The Rising & War of Independence in that case was also civil disobedience. I don't want to go into a big history lesson but in 1916 when the "progressives" in London declined to issue a certificate of authenticity of support for these Irish "rebels" & their Proclamation of a Irish Republic. But like you they made the mistake, the mistake that the only certificate required was the one issued by the Irish people for the Irish freedom struggle. They didn't require the certificate from anybody else.

The country should never have been partitioned in the first place. A state who's slogan was "A Protestant State For Protestant People" spelled trouble from day one. And there will never be a full peace in N.Ireland for a long, long time whether it comes from loyalist or republican actions I can assure you of that.

Did you not read or hear about the Civil Rights marches in the 60's that were violently stopped by the RUC, The B-Specials & loyalists thugs? Did you miss that part? Oppressed people will rise & I can guarantee if the provos had not been formed the Unionist politicians would have continued with their ethnic cleansing of Catholics from the North.

Are you opposed to the decline of Rome? Should Britain not have been allowed to break away from the Roman Empire? Or does that not count because it doesn't suit the west brit agenda?

Sorry, I'm out of here, this is beginning to wreck my head.
Enjoy the debate. Good night!:)

LordSutch

tdv123 wrote: »

Ireland should have been recognized as an independent country end off. It was a democratic vote.

Also the British government capitulated to a terrorist threat from Ulster. Why was that ok?

May I suggest it would have got very messy if a full scale proper "War" had taken place between the North and the South! and I'm not talking about the little skirmishes that did take place 1920-22, but a proper WAR on the island of Ireland between the Pro Union camp & Nationalist Ireland.

At least partition stopped any chance of that, before it really kicked off . . .

delthedriver

tdv123 wrote: »

Were did I say that? It wasn't the IRA it was a breakaway group who didn't have a clue what they were doing?

A break away group from whom?

SoulandForm

LordSutch wrote: »

The PIRA had very little support in the ROI, come to think of it, they were being chassed up and down the Republic by the Gardai such was their penchant for doing bank jobs and post offices! In Northern Ireland the SDLP were the major Nationalist party, and they had the vast support of the Nationalist people behind them during the Troubles - FACT.

The PIRA had support within a minority, which was within a minority (in NI).

The PIRA had a lot of sympathy if not support from people in grass roots Fianna Fail and the Workers Party, despite the views of the leadership of those parties, PSF didnt attract those votes because they were seen as not been relevant to the south. Also you have to remember that PSF only really started getting organized properly as a political force in the north after the hunger strikes.

tdv123

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Read your history. It was. And Northern Ireland was given the choice of opting out. It chose to opt out.

Northern Ireland wasn't a state at that point. It was given the option to opt out because of a terrorist threat from Carson & his followers. Is that democracy?

tdv123

delthedriver wrote: »

A break away group from whom?

Well I don't know for sure that it was a break away group . Could have been a bunch of angry republicans who had nothing to do with the provos, which could have well been given how botched up the operation was.

LordSutch

SoulandForm wrote: »

The PIRA had a lot of sympathy if not support from people in grass roots Fianna Fail and the Workers Party . . .

They did not have widespread sympathy or support while they were knee capping + tar & feathering teenagers (who stepped out of line). No, the IRA were for the most part detested down here, and don't forget they were not only the enemy of the British Government & the Unionist people, they were also the enemy of this State during the troubles. The PIRA was an illegal terrorist organisation who named themselves "The Irish Republican Army" while we already had the official army of the State - The Irish Army, whose aim was to stop the IRA robbing & murdering people in the ROI.

delthedriver

tdv123 wrote: »

Well I don't know for sure that it was a break away group . Could have been a bunch of angry republicans who had nothing to do with the provos, which could have well been given how botched up the operation was.

Now I am really confused. Firstly you suggested a splinter group, later a breakaway group and now you don't know for sure that it was a break away group.................???

Chips Lovell

tdv123 wrote: »

Northern Ireland wasn't a state at that point. It was given the option to opt out because of a terrorist threat from Carson & his followers. Is that democracy?

Actually, it was a separate entity in the union since 1920.

Do you think the majority in Northern Ireland in 1922 wanted to join the Irish state? Do you think it would have been democracy if they'd been forced to do so.

SoulandForm

delthedriver wrote: »

Interesting, where is the sympathy and support coming from for today's armed
Militants?

The Roman Catholic working class in the north predominately but also it exists in farming areas which have a strong Republican tradition such as part of Fermanagh and South Armagh. We also saw how many turned out for the funeral of Alan Ryan. I would have more time for them than I would have for the provos because they lack the sectarian dimension which that movement had. Im very concerned about the current treatment of Republican prisoners in the north.

LordSutch

SoulandForm wrote: »

Im very concerned about the current treatment of Republican prisoners in the north.

Why are they in prison may I ask?

SoulandForm

LordSutch wrote: »

They did not have widespread sympathy or support while they were knee capping + tar & feathering teenagers (who stepped out of line). No, the IRA were for the most part detested down here, and don't forget they were not only the enemy of the British Government & the Unionist people, they were also the enemy of this State during the troubles. The PIRA was an illegal terrorist organisation who named themselves "The Irish Republican Army" while we already had the official army of the State - The Irish Army, whose aim was to stop the IRA robbing & murdering people in the ROI.

Why was there such a big fuss about extraditating them and why did the British government have to apply so much pressure to get to the Free State to hand them over if that was the case?

tdv123

LordSutch wrote: »

May I suggest it would have got very messy if a full scale proper "War" had taken place between the North and the South! and I'm not talking about the little skirmishes that did take place 1920-22, but a proper WAR on the island of Ireland between the Pro Union camp & Nationalist Ireland.

At least partition stopped any chance of that, before it really kicked off . . .

Well if the Pro union camp had voted harder in 1918 they would have got their way without terrorist threats.

Partition stopped it but it still wasn't democracy or what the majority (76% I think) of people voted for.

delthedriver

SoulandForm wrote: »

The Roman Catholic working class in the north predominately but also it exists in farming areas which have a strong Republican tradition such as part of Fermanagh and South Armagh. We also saw how many turned out for the funeral of Alan Ryan. I would have more time for them than I would have for the provos because they lack the sectarian dimension which that movement had. Im very concerned about the current treatment of Republican prisoners in the north.

What are they in prison for? Why are you so concerned about them?

tdv123

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Actually, it was a separate entity in the union since 1920.

Do you think the majority in Northern Ireland in 1922 wanted to join the Irish state? Do you think it would have been democracy if they'd been forced to do so.

I was actually talking about 1912 when he was faced with the third Home Rule bill & formed the terrorist group the Ulster Volunteers who vowed to wage war against the empire who he was supposedly loyal to.

RandomName2

tdv123 wrote: »

If you look at the %'s of civilians killed by the IRA it's the smallest of the belligerents during the conflict the IRA had the smallest amount by a good bit, with Loyalists murderer squads being by far the highest around 85-90% of the people they killed were civilians.

Even so

troubles_deaths_by_status_organisation.gif

tayto lover

LordSutch wrote: »

The PIRA had very little support in the ROI, come to think of it, they were being chassed up and down the Republic by the Gardai such was their penchant for doing bank jobs and post offices! In Northern Ireland the SDLP were the major Nationalist party, and they had the vast support of the Nationalist people behind them during the Troubles - FACT.

The PIRA had support within a minority, which was within a minority (in NI).

A sprinter group maybe ??

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Chips Lovell

tdv123 wrote: »

I was actually talking about 1912 when he was faced with the third Home Rule bill & formed the terrorist group the Ulster Volunteers who vowed to wage war against the empire who he was supposedly loyal to.

And we organised the Irish Volunteers...

Neither of which changes the fact that majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want to leave the UK. Forcing them into Ireland would have been the antithesis of democracy.

SoulandForm

delthedriver wrote: »

What are they in prison for? Why are you so concerned about them?

Various reasons, mostly on membership or posession of weaponry charges.

Here is an example of why Im so concerned about them- http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/scared-for-son-1-5027753

Chips Lovell

RandomName2 wrote: »

Even so

troubles_deaths_by_status_organisation.gif

Ah but the Loyalists killed more. As long as someone else was responsible for more civilian killings, you can't blame the provos.

.jacksparrow.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Ah but the Loyalists killed more. As long as someone else was responsible for more civilian killings, you can't blame the provos.

You seem so concerned with blaming
Republicans for everything?

Chips Lovell

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

You seem so concerned with blaming
Republicans for everything?

Not really. If there were people on here defending loyalists paramilitaries, I'd be reacting the same.

.jacksparrow.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Not really. If there were people on here defending loyalists paramilitaries, I'd be reacting the same.

But you are?

Chips Lovell

What?

tdv123

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

And we organised the Irish Volunteers...

Neither of which changes the fact that majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want to leave the UK. Forcing them into Ireland would have been the antithesis of democracy.

Only because Northern Ireland was gerrymandered the better for Britain to rule it. The Irish Volunteers were actually ready to help the British defend Home Rule. They were set-up as a counter terrorist organization.



Theirs minority's in every part of the first world who aren't happy with some elements of their country but don't take up arms & threaten their leaders unless in sever circumstances.

My main problem isn't with N.Ireland being dived from the rest of the Island. My problem is the way nationalists were treated in their country own as second class citizens for decades. And without the provos I don't think they would have got some of the rights that they did.

Answer me this please. Do you think a states slogan that is "a protestant state for protestant people" was right? If everyone in N.Ireland had the same equal basic rights & opportunities from the start there would not have been all the blood shed that followed. Do you not agree?

The Queen of England

Nardie nardie nardie narh.

tdv123

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

What?

I think he means you actually are defending loyalist paramilitaries.

Busted Flat.

The Queen of England wrote: »

Nardie nardie nardie narh.

I have seen some posts, that were joking, abusive and just taking the pi$$, where does this one go.

Chips Lovell

tdv123 wrote: »

I think he means you actually are defending loyalist paramilitaries.

I'm lost as to how he got that idea.

The Queen of England

Busted Flat. wrote: »

I have seen some posts, that were joking, abusive and just taking the pi$$, where does this one go.

That was my Gerry Adams impersonation.

Chips Lovell

tdv123 wrote: »

Answer me this please. Do you think a states slogan that is "a protestant state for protestant people" was right? If everyone in N.Ireland had the same equal basic rights & opportunities from the start there would not have been all the blood shed that followed. Do you not agree?

Of course it wasn't right. But even if there had been equality between communities, you probably would have still had bloodshed because of people like the Provos who for decades would not accept anything less than unification with Ireland and loyalists bent on the opposite.

tdv123

delthedriver wrote: »

Now I am really confused. Firstly you suggested a splinter group, later a breakaway group and now you don't know for sure that it was a break away group.................???

Well if I knew every crime committed in Ireland I'd make one bloody good detective now wouldn't I?

It could have been either of the three, the point was it wasn't the same organization who was involved in the troubles & the way it was planned would suggest it wasn't former members of that organization either.

Banjo String

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Oh that makes it alright then.

You'll no doubt be condemning the Americans and Brits for their roles in Iraq/Afghanistan etc so?

delthedriver wrote: »

A splinter group? So that is acceptable?
It was still IRA! They murdered innocent people.

Lol, a splinter group who splintered from the IRA?

Not sure if acting dumb......

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

And we organised the Irish Volunteers...

Neither of which changes the fact that majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want to leave the UK. Forcing them into Ireland would have been the antithesis of democracy.

Do you think Israel belongs to the Israelis VK, bearing in mind its a manufactured state, post ww2?

you're a big lad, sure you've even been defending bankers pay on these boards.

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas, you should know that at this stage.

Busted Flat.

The Queen of England wrote: »

That was my Gerry Adams impersonation.

IMO, you have embarrassed yourself, and shown your age.