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Gerry Adams on RTE PrimeTime--29-05-13

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    tdv123 wrote: »
    Name one war in history were innocent civilians haven't been killed?

    If you look at the %'s of civilians killed by the IRA it's the smallest of the belligerents during the conflict the IRA had the smallest amount by a good bit, with Loyalists murderer squads being by far the highest around 85-90% of the people they killed were civilians.
    Except it wasn't a war. Only civil disobedience.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    tdv123 wrote: »
    If you look at the %'s of civilians killed by the IRA it's the smallest of the belligerents during the conflict the IRA had the smallest amount by a good bit, with Loyalists murderer squads being by far the highest around 85-90% of the people they killed were civilians.

    Oh that makes it alright then.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    Ironic thread on the day we have fianna fail politicians having running gun battles on the streets of our country!

    Is there a link?:confused:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    Is there a link?:confused:

    Sorry on the mobile so can't link one. But if you search for gayle killally the story will show up here on boards.ie


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    tdv123 wrote: »
    That was not the provisionals. That was a splinter group who had little support from the public.

    A splinter group? So that is acceptable? :confused:
    It was still IRA! They murdered innocent people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    tdv123 wrote: »
    That was not the provisionals. That was a splinter group who had little support from the public.

    Neither did the PIRA.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    Sorry on the mobile so can't link one. But if you search for gayle killally the story will show up here on boards.ie

    Cheers Michael,

    Will have a look :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Neither did the PIRA.

    Yes they did otherwise they wouldnt have been able to sustain their campaign over so many years. Also I wouldnt underestimate sympathy if not support for today's armed militants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Yes they did otherwise they wouldnt have been able to sustain their campaign over so many years. Also I wouldnt underestimate sympathy if not support for today's armed militants.

    The PIRA had very little support in the ROI, come to think of it, they were being chased up and down the Republic by the Gardai such was their penchant for doing bank jobs and post offices! In Northern Ireland the SDLP were the major Nationalist party, and they had the vast support of the Nationalist people behind them during the Troubles - FACT.

    The PIRA had support within a minority, which was within a minority (in NI).


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Oh that makes it alright then.

    Same way thousands who die in Iraq is ok because its "war".


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Except it wasn't a war. Only civil disobedience.

    You's are making mistakes. The Rising & War of Independence in that case was also civil disobedience. I don't want to go into a big history lesson but in 1916 when the "progressives" in London declined to issue a certificate of authenticity of support for these Irish "rebels" & their Proclamation of a Irish Republic. But like you they made the mistake, the mistake that the only certificate required was the one issued by the Irish people for the Irish freedom struggle. They didn't require the certificate from anybody else.

    The country should never have been partitioned in the first place. A state who's slogan was "A Protestant State For Protestant People" spelled trouble from day one. And there will never be a full peace in N.Ireland for a long, long time whether it comes from loyalist or republican actions I can assure you of that.

    Did you not read or hear about the Civil Rights marches in the 60's that were violently stopped by the RUC, The B-Specials & loyalists thugs? Did you miss that part? Oppressed people will rise & I can guarantee if the provos had not been formed the Unionist politicians would have continued with their ethnic cleansing of Catholics from the North.

    Are you opposed to the decline of Rome? Should Britain not have been allowed to break away from the Roman Empire? Or does that not count because it doesn't suit the west brit agenda?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    tdv123 wrote: »
    The country should never have been partitioned in the first place.

    So realistically, what would have happened if the island hadn't been partitioned?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    Yes they did otherwise they wouldnt have been able to sustain their campaign over so many years. Also I wouldnt underestimate sympathy if not support for today's armed militants.

    Interesting, where is the sympathy and support coming from for today's armed
    Militants?:confused:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    A splinter group? So that is acceptable? :confused:
    It was still IRA! They murdered innocent people.


    Were did I say that? It wasn't the IRA it was a breakaway group who didn't have a clue what they were doing?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    LordSutch wrote: »
    So realistically, what would have happened if the island hadn't been partitioned?

    Ireland should have been recognized as an independent country end off. It was a democratic vote.

    Also the British government capitulated to a terrorist threat from Ulster. Why was that ok?


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    tdv123 wrote: »
    Ireland should have been recognized as an independent country end off. It was a democratic vote.

    Read your history. It was. And Northern Ireland was given the choice of opting out. It chose to opt out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    tdv123 wrote: »
    You's are making mistakes. The Rising & War of Independence in that case was also civil disobedience. I don't want to go into a big history lesson but in 1916 when the "progressives" in London declined to issue a certificate of authenticity of support for these Irish "rebels" & their Proclamation of a Irish Republic. But like you they made the mistake, the mistake that the only certificate required was the one issued by the Irish people for the Irish freedom struggle. They didn't require the certificate from anybody else.

    The country should never have been partitioned in the first place. A state who's slogan was "A Protestant State For Protestant People" spelled trouble from day one. And there will never be a full peace in N.Ireland for a long, long time whether it comes from loyalist or republican actions I can assure you of that.

    Did you not read or hear about the Civil Rights marches in the 60's that were violently stopped by the RUC, The B-Specials & loyalists thugs? Did you miss that part? Oppressed people will rise & I can guarantee if the provos had not been formed the Unionist politicians would have continued with their ethnic cleansing of Catholics from the North.

    Are you opposed to the decline of Rome? Should Britain not have been allowed to break away from the Roman Empire? Or does that not count because it doesn't suit the west brit agenda?

    Sorry, I'm out of here, this is beginning to wreck my head.
    Enjoy the debate. Good night!:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    tdv123 wrote: »
    Ireland should have been recognized as an independent country end off. It was a democratic vote.

    Also the British government capitulated to a terrorist threat from Ulster. Why was that ok?

    May I suggest it would have got very messy if a full scale proper "War" had taken place between the North and the South! and I'm not talking about the little skirmishes that did take place 1920-22, but a proper WAR on the island of Ireland between the Pro Union camp & Nationalist Ireland.

    At least partition stopped any chance of that, before it really kicked off . . .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    tdv123 wrote: »
    Were did I say that? It wasn't the IRA it was a breakaway group who didn't have a clue what they were doing?

    A break away group from whom?:confused::confused:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    LordSutch wrote: »
    The PIRA had very little support in the ROI, come to think of it, they were being chassed up and down the Republic by the Gardai such was their penchant for doing bank jobs and post offices! In Northern Ireland the SDLP were the major Nationalist party, and they had the vast support of the Nationalist people behind them during the Troubles - FACT.

    The PIRA had support within a minority, which was within a minority (in NI).

    The PIRA had a lot of sympathy if not support from people in grass roots Fianna Fail and the Workers Party, despite the views of the leadership of those parties, PSF didnt attract those votes because they were seen as not been relevant to the south. Also you have to remember that PSF only really started getting organized properly as a political force in the north after the hunger strikes.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    Read your history. It was. And Northern Ireland was given the choice of opting out. It chose to opt out.

    Northern Ireland wasn't a state at that point. It was given the option to opt out because of a terrorist threat from Carson & his followers. Is that democracy?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    A break away group from whom?:confused::confused:

    Well I don't know for sure that it was a break away group . Could have been a bunch of angry republicans who had nothing to do with the provos, which could have well been given how botched up the operation was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    The PIRA had a lot of sympathy if not support from people in grass roots Fianna Fail and the Workers Party . . .

    They did not have widespread sympathy or support while they were knee capping + tar & feathering teenagers (who stepped out of line). No, the IRA were for the most part detested down here, and don't forget they were not only the enemy of the British Government & the Unionist people, they were also the enemy of this State during the troubles. The PIRA was an illegal terrorist organisation who named themselves "The Irish Republican Army" while we already had the official army of the State - The Irish Army, whose aim was to stop the IRA robbing & murdering people in the ROI.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    tdv123 wrote: »
    Well I don't know for sure that it was a break away group . Could have been a bunch of angry republicans who had nothing to do with the provos, which could have well been given how botched up the operation was.

    Now I am really confused. Firstly you suggested a splinter group, later a breakaway group and now you don't know for sure that it was a break away group.................???:confused:


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    tdv123 wrote: »
    Northern Ireland wasn't a state at that point. It was given the option to opt out because of a terrorist threat from Carson & his followers. Is that democracy?

    Actually, it was a separate entity in the union since 1920.

    Do you think the majority in Northern Ireland in 1922 wanted to join the Irish state? Do you think it would have been democracy if they'd been forced to do so.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Interesting, where is the sympathy and support coming from for today's armed
    Militants?:confused:

    The Roman Catholic working class in the north predominately but also it exists in farming areas which have a strong Republican tradition such as part of Fermanagh and South Armagh. We also saw how many turned out for the funeral of Alan Ryan. I would have more time for them than I would have for the provos because they lack the sectarian dimension which that movement had. Im very concerned about the current treatment of Republican prisoners in the north.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Im very concerned about the current treatment of Republican prisoners in the north.

    Why are they in prison may I ask?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    LordSutch wrote: »
    They did not have widespread sympathy or support while they were knee capping + tar & feathering teenagers (who stepped out of line). No, the IRA were for the most part detested down here, and don't forget they were not only the enemy of the British Government & the Unionist people, they were also the enemy of this State during the troubles. The PIRA was an illegal terrorist organisation who named themselves "The Irish Republican Army" while we already had the official army of the State - The Irish Army, whose aim was to stop the IRA robbing & murdering people in the ROI.

    Why was there such a big fuss about extraditating them and why did the British government have to apply so much pressure to get to the Free State to hand them over if that was the case?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    LordSutch wrote: »
    May I suggest it would have got very messy if a full scale proper "War" had taken place between the North and the South! and I'm not talking about the little skirmishes that did take place 1920-22, but a proper WAR on the island of Ireland between the Pro Union camp & Nationalist Ireland.

    At least partition stopped any chance of that, before it really kicked off . . .

    Well if the Pro union camp had voted harder in 1918 they would have got their way without terrorist threats.

    Partition stopped it but it still wasn't democracy or what the majority (76% I think) of people voted for.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    The Roman Catholic working class in the north predominately but also it exists in farming areas which have a strong Republican tradition such as part of Fermanagh and South Armagh. We also saw how many turned out for the funeral of Alan Ryan. I would have more time for them than I would have for the provos because they lack the sectarian dimension which that movement had. Im very concerned about the current treatment of Republican prisoners in the north.

    What are they in prison for? Why are you so concerned about them?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    Actually, it was a separate entity in the union since 1920.

    Do you think the majority in Northern Ireland in 1922 wanted to join the Irish state? Do you think it would have been democracy if they'd been forced to do so.

    I was actually talking about 1912 when he was faced with the third Home Rule bill & formed the terrorist group the Ulster Volunteers who vowed to wage war against the empire who he was supposedly loyal to.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    tdv123 wrote: »
    If you look at the %'s of civilians killed by the IRA it's the smallest of the belligerents during the conflict the IRA had the smallest amount by a good bit, with Loyalists murderer squads being by far the highest around 85-90% of the people they killed were civilians.

    Even so

    troubles_deaths_by_status_organisation.gif


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,880 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    LordSutch wrote: »
    The PIRA had very little support in the ROI, come to think of it, they were being chassed up and down the Republic by the Gardai such was their penchant for doing bank jobs and post offices! In Northern Ireland the SDLP were the major Nationalist party, and they had the vast support of the Nationalist people behind them during the Troubles - FACT.

    The PIRA had support within a minority, which was within a minority (in NI).

    A sprinter group maybe ??

    Sorry, couldn't resist.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    tdv123 wrote: »
    I was actually talking about 1912 when he was faced with the third Home Rule bill & formed the terrorist group the Ulster Volunteers who vowed to wage war against the empire who he was supposedly loyal to.

    And we organised the Irish Volunteers...

    Neither of which changes the fact that majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want to leave the UK. Forcing them into Ireland would have been the antithesis of democracy.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    What are they in prison for? Why are you so concerned about them?

    Various reasons, mostly on membership or posession of weaponry charges.

    Here is an example of why Im so concerned about them- http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/scared-for-son-1-5027753


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell



    Ah but the Loyalists killed more. As long as someone else was responsible for more civilian killings, you can't blame the provos.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Ah but the Loyalists killed more. As long as someone else was responsible for more civilian killings, you can't blame the provos.

    You seem so concerned with blaming
    Republicans for everything?


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    You seem so concerned with blaming
    Republicans for everything?

    Not really. If there were people on here defending loyalists paramilitaries, I'd be reacting the same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Not really. If there were people on here defending loyalists paramilitaries, I'd be reacting the same.

    But you are?


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    What?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    And we organised the Irish Volunteers...

    Neither of which changes the fact that majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want to leave the UK. Forcing them into Ireland would have been the antithesis of democracy.

    Only because Northern Ireland was gerrymandered the better for Britain to rule it. The Irish Volunteers were actually ready to help the British defend Home Rule. They were set-up as a counter terrorist organization.



    Theirs minority's in every part of the first world who aren't happy with some elements of their country but don't take up arms & threaten their leaders unless in sever circumstances.

    My main problem isn't with N.Ireland being dived from the rest of the Island. My problem is the way nationalists were treated in their country own as second class citizens for decades. And without the provos I don't think they would have got some of the rights that they did.

    Answer me this please. Do you think a states slogan that is "a protestant state for protestant people" was right? If everyone in N.Ireland had the same equal basic rights & opportunities from the start there would not have been all the blood shed that followed. Do you not agree?


  • Site Banned Posts: 124 ✭✭The Queen of England


    Nardie nardie nardie narh.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    What?

    I think he means you actually are defending loyalist paramilitaries.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    Nardie nardie nardie narh.

    I have seen some posts, that were joking, abusive and just taking the pi$$, where does this one go.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    tdv123 wrote: »
    I think he means you actually are defending loyalist paramilitaries.

    I'm lost as to how he got that idea.


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  • Site Banned Posts: 124 ✭✭The Queen of England


    I have seen some posts, that were joking, abusive and just taking the pi$$, where does this one go.

    That was my Gerry Adams impersonation.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    tdv123 wrote: »
    Answer me this please. Do you think a states slogan that is "a protestant state for protestant people" was right? If everyone in N.Ireland had the same equal basic rights & opportunities from the start there would not have been all the blood shed that followed. Do you not agree?

    Of course it wasn't right. But even if there had been equality between communities, you probably would have still had bloodshed because of people like the Provos who for decades would not accept anything less than unification with Ireland and loyalists bent on the opposite.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    Now I am really confused. Firstly you suggested a splinter group, later a breakaway group and now you don't know for sure that it was a break away group.................???:confused:

    Well if I knew every crime committed in Ireland I'd make one bloody good detective now wouldn't I?

    It could have been either of the three, the point was it wasn't the same organization who was involved in the troubles & the way it was planned would suggest it wasn't former members of that organization either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Oh that makes it alright then.

    You'll no doubt be condemning the Americans and Brits for their roles in Iraq/Afghanistan etc so?
    A splinter group? So that is acceptable? :confused:
    It was still IRA! They murdered innocent people.

    Lol, a splinter group who splintered from the IRA?

    Not sure if acting dumb......
    And we organised the Irish Volunteers...

    Neither of which changes the fact that majority of people in Northern Ireland didn't want to leave the UK. Forcing them into Ireland would have been the antithesis of democracy.

    Do you think Israel belongs to the Israelis VK, bearing in mind its a manufactured state, post ww2?

    you're a big lad, sure you've even been defending bankers pay on these boards.

    Turkeys don't vote for Christmas, you should know that at this stage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    That was my Gerry Adams impersonation.

    IMO, you have embarrassed yourself, and shown your age.


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