failure to display tax disk on my new car

stoutykid

Would be very grateful if anyone had any adivce on what to do here. I bought a second hand car on the 17th of December 2012, signed the log book withe dealer at 5pm that evening when I collected the car and intended to tax the car when I got the log book in my name back from Shannon. Which I did after the Christmas period. However on the 19th of Deccember I recieved a fine from Cork County Council for failure to display valid tax disk while parked on a public road.

I appealed the fine and sent them on two different occassions a copy of the reciept of my car for the 17th and a letter explaining it was not possible for me to have a valid tax disk at the time as I was not offically the registered owner. I never recieved a written reply in relation to my appeal just another reminder in Jan reminding me to pay. I phoned their parking division and spoke to someone again outlining how it had not been possible for me to tax the car given the two days between purchase and the fine. The person who I was talking to said she understood what I was saying, her supervisor had become more strict about this but yes it was not possible in my circumstances and she would put it on my file not to recieve any more reminders until my appeal was dealt with.

I didnt hear any more about this so just presumed STUPIDLY that this was dealt with. Wrong- recieved a summons to appear in court for failure to pay fine. I am just off the phone from the council and they say I can pay fine or go to court because I shouldnt have been on a public road with the car if it wasn't taxed. They are not accepting it was not possible for me to display a valid tax disk at the time. They said I shouldnt have been driving the car on public roads until I was able to tax the car.

What should I do should I just pay the now very increased fine or is it worth turning up in Court with my evidence or do I risk getting an even bigger fine. I am not clear on what the law is. Is there any point going the Gardai about in advance of Court ( I am thinking not as it was a fine from the Council). I have proof of purchase for the 17th, proof of taxing the car in late December. Would I need to speak to the Judge directly, never been in this position before the idea of court just makes me nervous.

thanks in advance for reading all that...!! I am bit wound up over it all. Its frustrating that they can't accept what I am saying and it wasn't like I was trying to avoid paying my car tax it just wasnt physically possible for me to do so as I wasnt the registered owner....!!

Big Nasty

Pay the fine and avoid court. I'm sorry but you're in the wrong here - end of.

biko

Just pay. If you have car on public road with no tax this is an offence.
You just having bought the car is irrelevant for their purposes.

stoutykid

But that's just it I don't understand how I am in the wrong. Even if I taxed the car the 15th, I wouldnt have had a disk to put in the window of my car and it would have gone to the previous owner address. Is the law - you are not allowed drive a car on a road until you phyiscally have a tax disk. well if that's the case I am in the wrong but its a law I wasn't aware of.

Just to clarfiy I did tax the car in December but it was the end of the month due to awaiting the log book

Anan1

stoutykid wrote: »

Is the law - you are not allowed drive a car on a road until you phyiscally have a tax disk.

Exactly, the car cannot appear in a public place without a valid tax disc in the windscreen.

stoutykid wrote: »

well if that's the case I am in the wrong but its a law I wasn't aware of.

Without meaning to sound smart, ignorance of the law is no defence.

Peanut2011

stoutykid wrote: »

But that's just it I don't understand how I am in the wrong. Even if I taxed the car the 15th, I wouldnt have had a disk to put in the window of my car and it would have gone to the previous owner address.

Your fine was for failure to display the valid tax disk. That fine still stands and is irrelevant if your car was taxed or not.

biko

The law is: a car on a public road, either parked or moving, must display a valid tax disc.
If you don't display a disk you will get fined. Simples.

If you paid tax and are waiting on disc you can still be done.
If you paid tax and have the disc in your trouser pocket you can still be done.
If disc is in glove box you can still be done.

ironclaw

You'd want to be absolutely certain there is no way you could have had a tax disc on that car and you made all reasonable effort to do so. Unfortunately its probably cheaper to swallow one's pride and pay the fine, the law ain't in your favor.

Boggles the mind why a council can't issue a temporary tax disc for such occasions.

Solair

Car should have still had its old tax disk. These do not change with owenership, they only detail the reg of the car etc on the disk.

That's the issue with buying a car that has had no motor tax uptodate!

It's supposed to be kept up to date unless the car has been verifiably off the road.

With a brand new car it's different too as it'll have never been taxed until you purchased it. So you've got a valid argument to appeal assuming you immediately applied for tax online or in person.

Unfortunately, you bought an untaxed second hand car and also purchased the responsibility for that.

biko

Exactly, people selling their cars stop paying tax as car can be gone any day.
The seller buy the car knowing this and will either ask seller to tax it first so it's covered or just wait until the paperwork is all sorted before driving the car.

Buying a car knowing the tax is out and still driving around is not a justifiable defence to the courts.


In the real world it happens all the time that buyers just keep driving until logbook is back so they can tax the car. But that's a risk you are willing to take.
Just pay.

stoutykid

Thanks for the replies. I guess its pay the fine then. Can't say I am happy about it given that I did pay car tax in the month of December I always have my car tax up to date....

coolisin

Don't mean to be on the high horse but you can tax a car without the log book.

You have two options download and print off the relevant form think its rf100 or rf101, fill it in send it off in the snail mail and a couple weeks later taxed simples.
On this form you can state you are the new owner and only liable for tax from whenever.

Or option two rock up to the motortax office in person with the same form get the disc on the spot.

I had to go through the exact same thing at the start of the year.
I just made sure I wasn't parking on public streets where a warden might be having a stroll.

Unfortunately you are in the wrong the fine is for having no tax on display, a member of an Garda might let you off at a checkpoint traffic wardens have always being known to be less kind!

djimi

Solair wrote: »

Car should have still had its old tax disk. These do not change with owenership, they only detail the reg of the car etc on the disk.

That's the issue with buying a car that has had no motor tax uptodate!

It's supposed to be kept up to date unless the car has been verifiably off the road.

With a brand new car it's different too as it'll have never been taxed until you purchased it. So you've got a valid argument to appeal assuming you immediately applied for tax online or in person.

Unfortunately, you bought an untaxed second hand car and also purchased the responsibility for that.

The new owner is only responsible for tax on a car from the 1st day of the month in which they bought the car. If I buy a car on the 1st May and it hadnt been taxed in the previous 5 years then that is not my problem. In that regard, its no different from buying a brand new car.

djimi

coolisin wrote: »

Don't mean to be on the high horse but you can tax a car without the log book.

You have two options download and print off the relevant form think its rf100 or rf101, fill it in send it off in the snail mail and a couple weeks later taxed simples.
On this form you can state you are the new owner and only liable for tax from whenever.

Or option two rock up to the motortax office in person with the same form get the disc on the spot.

I had to go through the exact same thing at the start of the year.
I just made sure I wasn't parking on public streets where a warden might be having a stroll.

Unfortunately you are in the wrong the fine is for having no tax on display, a member of an Garda might let you off at a checkpoint traffic wardens have always being known to be less kind!

Surely you cant do either of those things until Shannon has sorted you out as the registered owner of the car? Which Im guessing was the delay the OP experienced.

bazz26

stoutykid wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I guess its pay the fine then. Can't say I am happy about it given that I did pay car tax in the month of December I always have my car tax up to date....

Even if the car was taxed and you didn't put the new disc in the windscreen you could have been fined for not displaying a valid tax disc. Not having your car taxed and not displaying a current valid tax disc are two separate offences. You got fined and subsequently summoned for the latter.

stoutykid

Colisun - even if I did that I would have still got the fine as there was only a two day delay between purchase and fine. any time I tax my car takes at least five days for tax disk to arrive. I learnt €160 lesson as the fine has now increased due to my appeal failing even though I got no written notice of this. It would seem though following the letter of the law then that you shouldnt a drive a car off a forecourt then without getting it taxed first and having disk on display.

boldspirit

I personally would have my day in court. Argue that you had no log book and that you were not informed that the appeal failed.

biko

Pretty much yeah.

coolisin

@ stoutykid,
I know yeah, the problem was you were parked on a public road at some point.
If you went to the tax office you could've gotten the disc right away.

As I said I went through the same thing in January but made sure to park in a private car park at all times, but then that is easy for me as work has an underground car park I can hide in and so does my apartment estate.

you see a guard may look the other way at a checkpoint when you explain the situation.

I'm in the camp it doesn't make sense, but an expensive lesson.
Sorry OP.

Yakuza

stoutykid wrote: »

Colisun - even if I did that I would have still got the fine as there was only a two day delay between purchase and fine. any time I tax my car takes at least five days for tax disk to arrive. I learnt €160 lesson as the fine has now increased due to my appeal failing even though I got no written notice of this. It would seem though following the letter of the law then that you shouldnt a drive a car off a forecourt then without getting it taxed first and having disk on display.

Situations like this are another good reason to put car tax in fuel. No administation costs of having to issue reminders and disks, impossible to avoid (unless you buy hokey fuel, I guess) and one less thing to be checked by wardens / Gardaí .

There is no natural justice in getting hammered because you bought an untaxed car over a lull period when the turn around time for a disk might be longer than normal.

Why, in the 21st century, are we clinging to fiddly bits of paper and outmoded administration systems? Oh, I forgot, it's because we're in a backwater sh1thole of a country that can't manage its way out of a wet paper bag, and where any real innovation is avoided like the plague, and the only changes to come about are meaningless twaddle (131/132 plates anyone???), brought around by ineptitude (120XXX plates for older imports) or downright stupid (the July '08 change in taxation basis which made a hames of the car market).

maidhc

It is generally easier (and cheaper) to deal with a Judge than Cork City Council.

Go into Court, worst case scenario you won't do much worse than you would have by paying the fine!

dilallio

When you taxed the car after the Christmas period, was it backdated to cover the time when you were caught?

If not, pay the fine.

If you backdated it, and turn up in court with proof of this and proof of the purchase date, a judge should take this into account. There are no guarantees though, and the cost of missing work to attend court might be more expensive than the fine.

Bullseye1

Car dealers should really have a disc on the car for at least 3 month period.

mathepac

People who own cars should really pay their motor tax or leave the car off road

ironclaw

mathepac wrote: »

People who own cars should really pay their motor tax or leave the car off road

Agreed. But the OP was in that awkward pre-Christmas period where the public service decides it needs a well earned break from doing nothing all year.

Andre Salmon

I have been looking at buying a car through done deal for the last couple of months.
Every car I looked at didn't have an up to date tax disc, they all had expired in 2012.
I presumed people were too broke to renew it. So if I buy a car i'd get nabbed?

Also I renewed my tax yesterday as it finishes today.
I printed the receipt and have it on my dash assuming this would be sufficient proof.
car will be parked outside my house until friday

wandatowell

I got caught driving my new car (well second hand new) home from the garage, got stopped at a check point and done for no car tax.

Lesson learned, never buy a car with out a few weeks/months tax on it


p.s. I even showed the law man my receipt. All I got was "that doesnt wash with me" Looking back I have to laugh at the whole thing

munchkin_utd

has anyone the actual text of the law?

once again the irish government has many websites paraphrasing what the rule/ law is, but a reference to the actual specific law that you break if you dont comply is very difficult to come across.
Heres the road traffic act consolidated (i.e. Restatement) and nothing there about display of tax disc: http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Restatement/First%20Programme%20of%20Restatement/EN%20ACT%201961%200024.pdf
Theres mention of it being in an excise law but I cant find the relevant one and have given up at this stage.

Just wondering if there is any law at all on the matter to be honest.

djimi

boldspirit wrote: »

I personally would have my day in court. Argue that you had no log book and that you were not informed that the appeal failed.

Im inclined to agree. This is a case of a local council taking the piss in a situation where they really should be showing some leniency. The OP can show that they had only just purchased the car, and had purchased tax in a timely fashion; this matter should have gone no further than the appeals process.

mathepac

ironclaw wrote: »

Agreed. But the OP was in that awkward pre-Christmas period where the public service decides it needs a well earned break from doing nothing all year.

It's a huge shame that there is no acknowledgement from Government that people need cars 24/7 and not just 10:00am to 4:00pm Monday to Friday. We have two parallel systems of processing motor-tax payments and changing ownership details (Shannon & Co Co offices) and using either penalises the motorist be creating unfair delays. The result of these Civil Service jobsworth delays is that motorists can, and do as in the current case, suffer further financial penalties.

Shame on you Inda.

jhegarty

OSI wrote: »

No, if you rock up the motor tax office with a filled out form and receipt for the car they should be happy enough to issue you with a tax disc there and then.

Tried that one myself.

They wouldn't take my money until the name change was complete.

stoutykid

Tax was back dated I paid for the full month of December which I had no difficulty in paying despite not owning the car till the 17th of the month. I concur car owners need to pay their car tax..... My issue is that common sense via Cork County Council has gone out the window. Thankfully I am not going to miss a day work as I am due a baby next week so should have flexiablity with attending court.

knucklehead6

OP, I'd normally be mounting a medium sized horse at this stage myself and muttering something you being able to afford a new car so you could afford the tax or what not, then launch into a tale of how i was stopped at a checkpoint one night with incorrect tax disc showing blah de blah de blah....

HOWEVER!!
From what you've said you made payment as soon as was reasonably possible after purchasing the car.
You have appealed and some goonbag who is afraid to choose between a decision that makes sense or following rules and procedures laid down in Appendix 457-G, Subsection A, Paragraph 4 of the How to be a Civil Servant Code of Independent Thinking (It says DON'T in big block letters for those of you who are interested)

Take the day in court. Have your documentation. It's just a pity you didn't use registered letters to post off the copies, but take the chance. I know I would be, and so would most others here.

ardmacha

The penalty is for failure to display, you did not display. No real grounds for appeal.
If there is any point here, it is that dealers should not be allowed send a vehicle off the premises without a valid disc, but then there is no obligation on anyone to take a vehicle without one. If you do (and I have) then you take your chances....

Anan1

ardmacha wrote: »

The penalty is for failure to display, you did not display. No real grounds for appeal.
If there is any point here, it is that dealers should not be allowed send a vehicle off the premises without a valid disc, but then there is no obligation on anyone to take a vehicle without one. If you do (and I have) then you take your chances....

+1, the real moral of this story is to be careful where you park when you bend the rules. A Garda would almost certainly have been fine with the OP's explanation, wardens are a different thing.

djimi

ardmacha wrote: »

The penalty is for failure to display, you did not display. No real grounds for appeal.
If there is any point here, it is that dealers should not be allowed send a vehicle off the premises without a valid disc, but then there is no obligation on anyone to take a vehicle without one. If you do (and I have) then you take your chances....

The real point is that the law should be such that once you tax your car at any point during the month in which it was purchased you can suffer no penalty resulting from a lack of tax/disc. Ultimately it makes no difference at what point in the month you tax the car; so long as it gets paid it all works out the same in the end anyway.

Cheensbo

Anan1 wrote: »

+1, the real moral of this story is to be careful where you park when you bend the rules. A Garda would almost certainly have been fine with the OP's explanation, wardens are a different thing.

I completely agree with this,

Street parking is a no-go when you arent displaying tax, as your car is unable to tell them that you've just purchased, they wont, (like a garda may), check your insurance disk for its latest date of issue.. as that can provide evidence to a newly acquired motor.

munchkin_utd

stoutykid wrote: »

But that's just it I don't understand how I am in the wrong. Even if I taxed the car the 15th, I wouldnt have had a disk to put in the window of my car and it would have gone to the previous owner address. Is the law - you are not allowed drive a car on a road until you phyiscally have a tax disk. well if that's the case I am in the wrong but its a law I wasn't aware of.

Just to clarfiy I did tax the car in December but it was the end of the month due to awaiting the log book

the law is a little quaint and obtuse, but simply put you must have paid any duties owed and display the tax disc in order to have the car on the road.
Its in the Roads Act 1920 :
http://gg.blackhallpublishing.com/garda-guide/subject-index/216-road%20traffic%20registration%20of%20vehicles/1481-Roads%20Act,%201920%20(10%20.html?11_Geo__c__72)=

Subject as may be prescribed, every such licence as aforesaid shall, in the prescribed manner, be fixed to and exhibited on the vehicle in respect of which it is issued.

in this law from 1920, a "licence" to be permitted to have a car on the open road = tax disc

and the punishment for breaking this requirement to display .....

If any person acts in contravention of, or fails to comply with, any regulations made under this Act, he shall, for each offence, be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding €1,269.74.

mister bishi

as des kelly once said

"tax is for carpets"

Marcusm

boldspirit wrote: »

I personally would have my day in court. Argue that you had no log book and that you were not informed that the appeal failed.

To which I imagine the prosecutor (whether guard or solicitor) or the judge would suggest that the OP should not have purchased the car until the vendor had obtianed a tax disc. Can't see how he is going to succeed with this one.

mister bishi

Marcusm wrote: »

To which I imagine the prosecutor (whether guard or solicitor) or the judge would suggest that the OP should not have purchased the car until the vendor had obtianed a tax disc. Can't see how he is going to succeed with this one.

get the old owner to tax it and put it in the window before u drive the car,

remember if it aint taxed it shouldn be on the road

maidhc

Generally speaking a Judge will dismiss a case like this. Not promising it will happen here, but once there is no loss to the state (which there isnt here as far as i can see), then there will be no problem.

stoutykid

But i bought it from a dealer.... does this mean that all car dealers should tax cars before they are allowed be driven off their forecourt? If you follow the law then this should have happened or I should have left my new car at the dealers while I waited for the log book to come back from Shannon and than waited for the valid tax disk to come in the post before I legally was allowed take home my new (second hand) car. I know ignorance of the law is no defense but I have never heard of anyone buying a new car and following this route...

jca

Yakuza wrote: »

Situations like this are another good reason to put car tax in fuel. No administation costs of having to issue reminders and disks, impossible to avoid (unless you buy hokey fuel, I guess) and one less thing to be checked by wardens / Gardaí .

There is no natural justice in getting hammered because you bought an untaxed car over a lull period when the turn around time for a disk might be longer than normal.

Why, in the 21st century, are we clinging to fiddly bits of paper and outmoded administration systems? Oh, I forgot, it's because we're in a backwater sh1thole of a country that can't manage its way out of a wet paper bag, and where any real innovation is avoided like the plague, and the only changes to come about are meaningless twaddle (131/132 plates anyone???), brought around by ineptitude (120XXX plates for older imports) or downright stupid (the July '08 change in taxation basis which made a hames of the car market).

Is that you Mary Lou?? Go on gis a smile then...

TheNog

I would take my chance in court tbh. Any judge with a little common sense would strike out the summons if you gave him or her the full facts.

slimjimmc

stoutykid wrote: »

But i bought it from a dealer.... does this mean that all car dealers should tax cars before they are allowed be driven off their forecourt? If you follow the law then this should have happened or I should have left my new car at the dealers while I waited for the log book to come back from Shannon and than waited for the valid tax disk to come in the post before I legally was allowed take home my new (second hand) car. I know ignorance of the law is no defense but I have never heard of anyone buying a new car and following this route...

The very moment you purchase the car you become the legal owner (but not yet the registered owner) and are the only one responsible for ensuring it is road legal. You could make it a condition of sale that the dealer taxes the car (even at your expense if necessary) before you take possession.

jca

slimjimmc wrote: »

The very moment you purchase the car you become the legal owner (but not yet the registered owner) and are the only one responsible for ensuring it is road legal. You could make it a condition of sale that the dealer taxes (at your expense if necessary) the car before you take possession.

How? How can a car dealer tax a car that isn't in their name? You only become the owner of a car (legal or otherwise if there is an otherwise) when you sign the change of ownership form.

slimjimmc

jca wrote: »

How? How can a car dealer tax a car that isn't in their name? You only become the owner of a car (legal or otherwise if there is an otherwise) when you sign the change of ownership form.

You become the legal owner when you buy the car. The change of ownership form is to only register you with the authorities as being responsible for the car wrt traffic matters. You can be the registered owner but not the legal owner e.g. hire-purchase. The tax office won't care who pays the tax and by going in person you get the disc immediately so there's nothing to post to the previous registered owner.

Btw I think the dealer is recorded with Shannon as a special type of registered owner which doesn't count towards the number of previous owners on the car's history, consider it a type of limbo.

jca

slimjimmc wrote: »

You become the legal owner when you buy the car. The change of ownership form is to only register you with the authorities as being responsible for the car wrt traffic matters. You can be the registered owner but not the legal owner e.g. hire-purchase. The tax office won't care who pays the tax and by going in person you get the disc immediately so there's nothing to post to the previous registered owner.

Btw I think the dealer is recorded with Shannon as a special type of registered owner which doesn't count towards the number of previous owners on the car's history, consider it a type of limbo.

You seem to be missing the posters point. 1) The tax office won't give you a tax disc for a car that has not yet been transferred to your name.
2) A car dealer cannot tax a car for you whether he's in limbo or not.
Because these situations are allowed to exist the op got fined. I'd go to court and explain my situation. Any reasonable judge would throw it out.

knucklehead6

jca wrote: »

You seem to be missing the posters point. 1) The tax office won't give you a tax disc for a car that has not yet been transferred to your name.
2) A car dealer cannot tax a car for you whether he's in limbo or not.
Because these situations are allowed to exist the op got fined. I'd go to court and explain my situation. Any reasonable judge would throw it out.

Once the OP keeps his cool and has all the documentation.

If he goes in all guns a blazin' and up the the judge "welll the storeeeee is dis, yonor, oi bawt de car ofa yizzer man dere" etc etc....

jca

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Once the OP keeps his cool and has all the documentation.

If he goes in all guns a blazin' and up the the judge "welll the storeeeee is dis, yonor, oi bawt de car ofa yizzer man dere" etc etc....

Well the op seems to be a level headed person. It happened to me years ago I got stopped by a very keen Garda and was subsequently summonsed. A solicitor got it sorted on the day. The judge barely listened and just struck it out.