Trains now even more expensive!! (Note mod warning post #23)

bk

I was under the impression that if you booked more then 7 days in advance, you would always get the "cheaper" fare, for instance €20 to Cork single.

But now I see that even if you book weeks in advance, they are now charging almost full fare for many journeys!!

For instance looking at Dublin to Cork on Friday 14th of June (over a month in advance) every train between 3pm and 7pm is €33 and the normal train I would take back from Cork on a Sunday would be the 6:20pm is also €33.

So even if I'd book over a month in advance for the journey I'd normally take, I'd be looking at €69 return including booking fees !!!!

That is just crazy. I thought it was a bad idea when they went from offering cheap fares 3 days in advance to 7 days, but I didn't realise they did this too!

And I see they are doing the same to Galway, etc.

This makes the train terrible value for money, almost 4 times more expensive then the bus, seriously what are they thinking, they will be handing passengers to the new bus services!

I'm surprised no one has noticed or mentioned this new development on here yet.

LeftBlank

It was mentioned here before that peak trains are excluded from the advance fare offers. This was first flagged many weeks ago.

And TBH, the bus vs. train threads are getting a little tiresome at this stage.

bikeman1

I agree too that the bus v train argument is overdone.

Surely there has to be a premium for departing Heuston on a Friday evening at 17:00 and arriving in Cork at 19:30 while having the ability to get up walk around, have a tea/coffee/beer/wine. Surf on the free wifi listen to music etc.

Rather than being stuck in tailbacks at Newlands Cross and all the way out past Naas. Some people dont mind paying extra for the train at peak.

Also a family return. Two adults and 4 kids is €99 open return which offers great value for a family looking for an alternative to a cramped bus or a potentially stressful drive.

bk

LeftBlank wrote: »

It was mentioned here before that peak trains are excluded from the advance fare offers. This was first flagged many weeks ago.

I remember someone mentioning it with relation to special events (match trains, etc.) but I had no idea it was this extensive.

No wonder the 4, 5 and 6pm Aircoach coaches are so busy on a Friday now.

BTW It isn't really a bus vs rail debate. Even if you are a rail fan, you should be annoyed by this and concerned about the future of intercity rail.

HivemindXX

bk wrote: »

This makes the train terrible value for money, almost 4 times more expensive then the bus, seriously what are they thinking, they will be handing passengers to the new bus services!

bk wrote: »

BTW It isn't really a bus vs rail debate. Even if you are a rail fan, you should be annoyed by this and concerned about the future of intercity rail.

:rolleyes:

bk

A premium for busy times yes, but not almost 4 times, no way is it worth that.

I would argue that the max fare to Cork on the train should always be €20 single, walk up, no booking fees.

Sure you could offer €10 or €15 fares off peak. But charging you €69 for booking more then 7 days in advance when your competitors charge a quarter of that for almost the same service is madness!

This will just have the effect of driving passengers to the new bus services, who when they see how good these services are, Irish Rail might never win them back.

Nice pot shot with the FUD there bikeman1, Newlands cross really isn't that bad, not any more, I haven't seen anything like the queues you are talking about when travelling on the bus on Friday evenings as I normally do. Anyway just this week, the government announced the awarding of the contract to start working on the Newlands cross upgrade. What excuse will you use then?

Also the buses had free wifi long before Irish Rail got it and nothing stopping you buying a coffee, beer, etc. before you board the bus.

bk

HivemindXX, it really isn't, I'm honestly not trying to promote buses here, what I'm questioning is the sanity of Irish Rail management.

Surely anyone who wants to see intercity rail have a future and remain competitive should be questioning this sort of carry on.

LeftBlank

bk wrote: »

HivemindXX, it really isn't, I'm honestly not trying to promote buses

But you are though. By bringing up the price of the bus you are doing that. If your post had not mentioned the bus at all and just stuck to the price of the train (including what you think it should be), that would have gotten your point across.

As others have said, there is room for both methods of travel. Some people are willing to pay a premium and some people are not. These threads just descend into the usual arguments, and tbh, are spoiling the forum.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

I remember someone mentioning it with relation to special events (match trains, etc.) but I had no idea it was this extensive.

.

The Marquee has a gig on that evening; this would count as a special event. It is also a peak time train on the busiest day of the week for trains out of Heuston and it is approaching a weekend in holiday season. Add concert goers on top of all and it will be a very busy weekend for traffic on the Cork line. I don't see the big issue with Irish Rail offering less of a discounted fare than usual on a busy weekend for advance booking. If anything it's a piece of mind to know that their carriage is assured.

bk

LeftBlank wrote: »

But you are though. By bringing up the price of the bus you are doing that. If your post had not mentioned the bus at all and just stuck to the price of the train (including what you think it should be), that would have gotten your point across.

But you can't really question the price, without comparing it to its competitors prices.

After all, if the bus companies didn't exist, then Irish Rail could pretty much charge whatever they liked. It would almost impossible to have a conversation about Irish Rails prices and not compare it to it's competitors.

And obviously the throngs of people in Busaras and Westmoreland St on Fridays says many people are making this comparison too, of course they are.

LeftBlank wrote: »

As others have said, there is room for both methods of travel. Some people are willing to pay a premium and some people are not. These threads just descend into the usual arguments, and tbh, are spoiling the forum.

I actually agree that there is room for both and that the train can perhaps charge a premium. But 4 times the bus is madness, few will find that premium acceptable.

Look at the max train fare of €20 single I mentioned earlier. That is still more then double the bus, so still a premium.

The thing is I do want intercity rail to survive, but if Irish Rail management think it is ok to charge a 4 times premium, then I fear they will lose massive numbers of passengers and thus make it more likely for intercity rail to fail.

bikeman1

I think IE are probably asking why should they discount trains that are going to be full even if they charge 69€.

I have travelled to Cork twice in the last year. Once by train and the other by Aircoach. I loved the excellent value provided by Aircoach. The bus was full and was uncomfortable for the run down. We had to stop at Urlingford and were just under 20 late intp Cork.

However the 18:00 Cork was two early. Lashed down to Cork and I had a bit more space and the option of walking around to strech my long legs.

Anyway lets not have another discussion about that.

I'm sure IE are trying to get as much money off their peak trains, when the demand is there.

Also the last time I drove out of Dublin on a Friday evening, Albeit to Kilkenny the traffic was stop go all the way past Naas and was very stressful.

bk

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The Marquee has a gig on that evening; this would count as a special event.

It isn't just this weekend, I've just checked and it is literally every weekend you can book in advance now. And it isn't just to Cork, it is the same to Galway, etc.

So this is now the new norm and not some special event.

If they keep this up, it will be frightening to see what Irish Rails passenger numbers are in a years time.

LeftBlank

bk wrote: »

But you can't really question the price, without comparing it to its competitors prices.

Yes, you can. I wouldn't use the bus to Cork at all (long distance bus travel is not for me, I'd sooner get a car and drive), but I do still think the train prices on Fridays are a little too expensive.

After all, if the bus companies didn't exist, then Irish Rail could pretty much charge whatever they liked. It would almost impossible to have a conversation about Irish Rails prices and not compare it to it's competitors.

That's incorrect. If the bus companies didn't exist, then IR could charge what the market could sustain. People would still have a point at which the train would be too expensive and would either drive or elect not to travel at all. It's Economics 101, imo

And obviously the throngs of people in Busaras and Westmoreland St on Fridays says many people are making this comparison too, of course they are.

And I'm positive that the trains to Cork at peak times on Friday are deserted.

kupus

bk wrote: »

Surely anyone who wants to see intercity rail have a future and remain competitive should be questioning this sort of carry on.

Maybe thats the whole idea, a slow phase out of rail services starting with upping the prices, lower passanger numbers, then rail looking for handouts, government says no, rail pack ups. Railway in Ireland finished
???
or maybe Im too cynical.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

It isn't just this weekend, I've just checked and it is literally every weekend you can book in advance now. And it isn't just to Cork, it is the same to Galway, etc.

So this is now the new norm and not some special event.

If they keep this up, it will be frightening to see what Irish Rails passenger numbers are in a years time.

There are marquee concerts over most of the weekend through June and early July; that's leaving aside other festivals and events. Even if they weren't on, my other points still stand and on all of the main routes out of Dublin.

Now here begs another question; why are you, an ardent fan of bus travel thoroughly checking out advance train fares to Cork and Galway?

bk

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Now here begs another question; why are you, an ardent fan of bus travel thoroughly checking out advance train fares to Cork and Galway?

No, it was this post by Hill Billy in another thread mentioning that some trains aren't discounted in June caught my interest and I checked it out:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84421826&postcount=4

And it isn't just June, all of March too, so this is obviously the new norm.

What I find interesting is that no rail fans had highlighted this, which begs the question, do any of them actually make any of these journeys? Or did they know about it, but didn't want to mention it knowing how bad it made the rail option look.

steamengine

bk wrote: »

I was under the impression that if you booked more then 7 days in advance, you would always get the "cheaper" fare, for instance €20 to Cork single.

But now I see that even if you book weeks in advance, they are now charging almost full fare for many journeys!!

For instance looking at Dublin to Cork on Friday 14th of June (over a month in advance) every train between 3pm and 7pm is €33 and the normal train I would take back from Cork on a Sunday would be the 6:20pm is also €33.

So even if I'd book over a month in advance for the journey I'd normally take, I'd be looking at €69 return including booking fees !!!!

That is just crazy. I thought it was a bad idea when they went from offering cheap fares 3 days in advance to 7 days, but I didn't realise they did this too!

And I see they are doing the same to Galway, etc.

This makes the train terrible value for money, almost 4 times more expensive then the bus, seriously what are they thinking, they will be handing passengers to the new bus services!

I'm surprised no one has noticed or mentioned this new development on here yet.

Just the start of another boring sermon - zzzzzzzzzzzz :rolleyes:

bk

So steamengine, as a fan of rail, you are happy with these prices and you don't think it will have any negative effect on the health and future of intercity rail?

Personally if I was a rail fan, I'd be steaming mad at it. As a fan of public transport I think it is crazy.

steamengine

bk wrote: »

So steamengine, as a fan of rail, you are happy with these prices and you don't think it will have any negative effect on the health and future of intercity rail?

Personally if I was a rail fan, I'd be steaming mad at it. As a fan of public transport I think it is crazy.

We have debated this topic 'ad nauseum' the same posts repeat themselves at monthly intervals - they are more akin to sermons and frankly there is no point in me engaging any longer - apologies and no personal offence intended.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

No, it was this post by Hill Billy in another thread mentioning that some trains aren't discounted in June caught my interest and I checked it out:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84421826&postcount=4

And it isn't just June, all of March too, so this is obviously the new norm.

What I find interesting is that no rail fans had highlighted this, which begs the question, do any of them actually make any of these journeys? Or did they know about it, but didn't want to mention it knowing how bad it made the rail option look.

It answers the question but not your motives behind raising it. It's going to be a busy time for Irish Rail, they are offering online rates which are still less than their going rate (And let it be said, they are not obliged to offer cheaper rates) yet you are upset that they, a company that you actually won't use, should be charging less again. I fail to see what your issue is here outside of your bus bus bus mantra.

bk

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It answers the question but not your motives behind raising it. It's going to be a busy time for Irish Rail, they are offering online rates which are still less than their going rate (And let it be said, they are not obliged to offer cheaper rates) yet you are upset that they, a company that you actually won't use, should be charging less again. I fail to see what your issue is here outside of your bus bus bus mantra.

My issue is very simple, train tickets from Irish Rail are too high and are driving passengers to car and bus, thus risking the future of intercity rail.

Very simple really. As I've said before, I'm not a bus fan, I'm a fan of public transport. I'd like to see intercity rail thrive and exist besides bus transport, but at these prices I'm not sure it will survive for long.

What I'm questioning is the sanity of Irish Rail management. This makes no sense unless they want to run rail into the ground.

LeftBlank

bk wrote: »

thus risking the future of intercity rail.

You've been death-knelling intercity rail for quite some time now. It's all getting quite tiresome. Do you have any actual evidence that this might be the case?

monument

Next one who posts off topic, posts stuff like "zzzzzz", or attacks another poster gets banned.

The topic is not the bus and rail debate is old -- click away, nobody is making you read the thread. Do not post if you're just giving out about the topic!

-- Mod

monument

LeftBlank wrote: »

You've been death-knelling intercity rail for quite some time now. It's all getting quite tiresome. Do you have any actual evidence that this might be the case?

It's fairly clear a large percentage of passangers have switched from rail to bus on routes like Dublin-Cork.

If you think more and more express buses using the motorway network and Irish Rail also increasing prices at the same time is not a risk for the railways, I don't know what you would count as a risk.

LeftBlank

monument wrote: »

It's fairly clear a large percentage of passangers have switched from rail to bus on routes like Dublin-Cork.

Fairly clear how?

If you think more and more express buses using the motorway network and Irish Rail also increasing prices at the same time is not a risk for the railways, I don't know what you would count as a risk.

Increasing prices for trains at peak demand times is perfectly acceptable and is good business practice.

bk

LeftBlank wrote: »

Fairly clear how?

So you really think that two new direct bus companies starting up, who offer similar journey times and tickets a quarter of the price of rail will have no effect!!

The evidence for the potential lose is right there in the report Irish Rail commissioned into intercity transport in 2011.

They found that the modal share on the Galway line was:
Car 50% Rail 25% Bus 25%

For Cork it was:
Car 50% Rail 40% Bus 10%

The difference was when this report was done, the direct non stop services hadn't started yet. But Galway has had such services for years.

If the Cork route ends up going the same way, a 15% drop in Irish Rails modal share would equate to a 40% drop in passenger numbers on the line!

The same risk exists on the Limerick route.

LeftBlank wrote: »

Increasing prices for trains at peak demand times is perfectly acceptable and is good business practice.

No it is not.

It isn't good business practice to do that when your direct competitors offer the same trip for a quarter of the price. All you will do is drive passengers to them.

LeftBlank

bk wrote: »

So you really think that two new direct bus companies starting up, who offer similar journey times and tickets a quarter of the price of rail will have no effect!!

I'm not saying it will have no effect - what am I saying is that it won't lead to the death of intercity rail.

The evidence for the potential lose is right there in the report Irish Rail commissioned into intercity transport in 2011.

They found that the modal share on the Galway line was:
Car 50% Rail 25% Bus 25%

For Cork it was:
Car 50% Rail 40% Bus 10%

The difference was when this report was done, the direct non stop services hadn't started yet. But Galway has had such services for years.

If the Cork route ends up going the same way, a 15% drop in Irish Rails modal share would equate to a 40% drop in passenger numbers on the line!

The same risk exists on the Limerick route.

So what you are saying is that there is no evidence yet?

bk

What I'm saying is that I and no one on this board has access to Irish Rails passenger figures. I'd love if they openly published them and proved me wrong.

A 40% drop in passenger figures on their most important and heavily used line could certainly put intercity rail on very shaky ground, specially when you combine it with subsidies cut.

LeftBlank

bk wrote: »

What I'm saying is that I and no one on this board has access to Irish Rails passenger figures. I'd love if they openly published them and proved me wrong.

A 40% drop in passenger figures on their most important and heavily used line could certainly put intercity rail on very shaky ground.

Yes a 40% drop would be bad. It could always drop by more, though I don't think it will. I don't think you can look at the example of Galway and say that this will happen to Cork. That assumption completely ignores relevant factors.

monty_python

Lucan to newbridge €15 return at all times. Thats crazy money for a 15/20 min journey

A taxi from dublin city center to lucan is €20 and it only takes 20 mins

bk

LeftBlank wrote: »

Yes a 40% drop would be bad. It could always drop by more, though I don't think it will. I don't think you can look at the example of Galway and say that this will happen to Cork. That assumption completely ignores relevant factors.

What relevant factors would they be?

BTW I mean that as a honest question. The differences that I can see are:

Negatives:
- Cork to Dublin is 30 minutes longer then Galway to Dublin

- Less well developed bus services.
Both GoBus and Citylink are using brand new 2012/2013 coaches all of which are toilet equipped and both services are hourly.
In Cork, Aircoach use older coaches that for the most part aren't toilet equipped and GoBE is only hourly.

- Less capacity, GoBE are only bi-hourly and on the limerick route GoBus and Citylink have a few double deckers which don't exist on the Cork route. So total capcity on the Cork route is currently less and it looks like Aircoach are struggling to meet the demand on Fridays and Sundays. This will limit the number of passengers bus can take from rail until they increase capacity.

- The Galway GoBus/Citylink services started during the celtic tiger, they had massive marketing campaigns, so absolutely everyone knows about their services, the same can't be said for Aircoach and GoBE, who have much more limited marketing.

- Galway is more of a student town and thus more price conscious.

- Galway has that lovely, very central bus station they operate out of.

Positives
- The price difference between the bus and the train is much greater on the Cork route then it is on the Galway route, meaning people are even more likely to swap.

So did I miss anything?

Con Logue

There's one paradox that isn't being addressed - higher prices and packed trains for particular weekends. If Irish Rail are maximising both revenue and numbers then they are doing their job correctly.

Some time ago it was suggested here that Aircoach etc should put a picket of students outside Kent or Heuston, leafleting punters of the error of their ways taking the train instead of the bus. However, I would be willing to wager that simply informing people of the bus options will not kill the railway.

Perhaps the explanation of the paradox is that there are significant numbers who wouldn't use the bus under any circumstances, for their own reasons that are opaque to those who beat the drum for the bus. Distinct markets who specifically want what the train offers at its best - shorter journey times and more comfort. Hair splitting about Luas and bus transfers won't affect that.

It is far more instructive to look at the inferior services offered to those who do not have the choice of a train, the huge swathe of the country where for political reasons in the 1950s the railway was destroyed. Punters to Cavan, Donegal and Derry from Dublin do not have the lovely fcuk-off coaches touted by the OP as the panacea for intercity travel. I wonder why?

BenShermin

Two years ago I was able to book in advance and secure a €20 return fare on rush hour trains between Dublin and Cork. This was at a time when there was no non-stop coaches from Dublin to Cork.

What in God's name warrants an almost 250% increase on the fare to €69 return??? Especially at a time when the railway is losing passengers to express coach services.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

No, it was this post by Hill Billy in another thread mentioning that some trains aren't discounted in June caught my interest and I checked it out:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84421826&postcount=4

And it isn't just June, all of March too, so this is obviously the new norm.

What I find interesting is that no rail fans had highlighted this, which begs the question, do any of them actually make any of these journeys? Or did they know about it, but didn't want to mention it knowing how bad it made the rail option look.

you saw a post of mine and started a thread based on what you saw yet in your first post you say that you are suprised that it wasnt mentioned. Sounds a bit like trolling to be honest.

Con Logue

Hilly Bill wrote: »

you saw a post of mine and started a thread based on what you saw yet in your first post you say that you are suprised that it wasnt mentioned. Sounds a bit like trolling to be honest.

I don't consider the OP to be trolling, but I doubt if he would object if the papers picked it up on a slow news day.

Mind you, biased spin in the papers can only go so far. I remember well one hack in the Sunday Business Post waged a campaign against the Luas before it opened, with snide comments about trams only being installed because they were considered "quaint" by un-named people and an article on the Sunday before the Green line opened in 2004, making a claim by an unnamed person that the ride was terrible and shaky.

The part of the newspaper I take most seriously are the TV listings.

http://dublinobserver.com/2011/03/white-elephant-on-tracks/

BenShermin

It is extremely clear that rail passengers are moving to bus services instead. Here's why:

At the start of last year Aircoach ran buses that stopped at every town and village on the way to Cork, 3hr50mins was the timing. The timetable was bi-hourly 0700 to 1900. Today Aircoach run non-stop buses in 3hrs from 0700 to 0100 every hour. They didn't increase capacity for no reason, did they?

At the start of last year GoBÉ didn't exist. They now run bi-hourly non stop services between 0830 and 0030.

Meanwhile at Irish Rail, many of the previously operated MK4 services are now 3car 22Ks with less capacity. I wonder why they have to cut capacity. But you know yourself, best to keep the head in the aul sand!

Hilly Bill

the op could have just bumped the other thread instead of starting another thread about the same auld rant.

Con Logue

BenShermin wrote: »

It is extremely clear that rail passengers are moving to bus services instead. Here's why:

At the start of last year Aircoach ran buses that stopped at every town and village on the way to Cork, 3hr50mins was the timing. The timetable was bi-hourly 0700 to 1900. Today Aircoach run non-stop buses in 3hrs from 0700 to 0100 every hour. They didn't increase capacity for no reason, did they?

At the start of last year GoBÉ didn't exist. They now run bi-hourly non stop services between 0830 and 0030.

Meanwhile at Irish Rail, many of the previously operated MK4 services are now 3car 22Ks with less capacity. I wonder why they have to cut capacity. But you know yourself, best to keep the head in the aul sand!

I don't doubt what you say, but I am curious about your source. Did you stand beside platform 5 at Heuston for a day and make observations with a notebook?

bk

Con Logue wrote: »

There's one paradox that isn't being addressed - higher prices and packed trains for particular weekends. If Irish Rail are maximising both revenue and numbers then they are doing their job correctly.

But are they packed at the weekends?

I admit that I haven't taken the train in the last year, but they certainly weren't packed when I last took them.

In the past packed trains would mean a mass of people standing (sitting on the floor) at the ends of carriages. But that took a noticeable drop when the new motorway opened, to the extent where even the 5pm ex-Dublin on a Friday had empty seats. And that was before the new direct bus services started, that was IR losing passengers to just the car.

Now you see that they have replaced Mark 4's with lower capacity 22k's for many of the departures and also have reduced some of the Mark 4's by one carriage.

This would strongly indicate reduced passenger numbers.

Con Logue wrote: »

Some time ago it was suggested here that Aircoach etc should put a picket of students outside Kent or Heuston, leafleting punters of the error of their ways taking the train instead of the bus. However, I would be willing to wager that simply informing people of the bus options will not kill the railway.

I suggested that. But not so much in a kill off the trains sort of way, more of it being a very obvious move if you worked in the marketing department of Aircoach.

Of course not very one is going to want to change from Rail to Bus, but there most be a significant number of people like BenSherman and I who were sick of paying ridiculously high train fares.

Con Logue wrote: »

Perhaps the explanation of the paradox is that there are significant numbers who wouldn't use the bus under any circumstances, for their own reasons that are opaque to those who beat the drum for the bus. Distinct markets who specifically want what the train offers at its best - shorter journey times and more comfort. Hair splitting about Luas and bus transfers won't affect that.

Sure, I agree that there will always be those who turn up their noise at buses. Until recently buses in Ireland were slow and uncomfortable.

It is only in the last year or two have bus services improved substantially and we are finally getting a level of bus service that people in mainland Europe are use to.

But as Ben and I pointed out I've still know loads of people in Cork and elsewhere who had never heard of these new services. Aircoach and GoBE simply haven't done much marketing. It takes a while for people to get use to them.

As the modal share numbers to Galway show, there will always be people who continue to take the train, 25% of people. But what I'm saying is can intercity rail survive a 40% cut in passenger numbers on it's Cork and Limerick route and what should they do to stem the tide.

I would argue that putting up their prices and hitting people at peak times is not the way to stop people from deserting their service.

Con Logue wrote: »

It is far more instructive to look at the inferior services offered to those who do not have the choice of a train, the huge swathe of the country where for political reasons in the 1950s the railway was destroyed. Punters to Cavan, Donegal and Derry from Dublin do not have the lovely fcuk-off coaches touted by the OP as the panacea for intercity travel. I wonder why?

Because the private companies have limited capital and it makes sense to spend it on the most profitable routes first. I mean in fairness, it has been only in the last year, since the NTA took over bus route licensing, that the private sector has started a lot of new routes. In just 12 months we have gotten:

- Hourly 24 hour service to Belfast by Aircoach
- Almost hourly 24 service to Cork by Aircoach
- Bi-hourly service to Cork by GoBE
- Hourly service to Limerick by Dublin Coach

That is a massive amount of investment by the private sector in just one year and during a recession too! I'm sure given time they will also expand to other new routes like Cavan, Donegal and Derry. It was the Department of Transport who were holding back the development of private operators for years, not the lack of rail.

Also it should be BE you ask why they don't have fancy new buses on these routes, they are the ones operating them after all.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

you saw a post of mine and started a thread based on what you saw yet in your first post you say that you are suprised that it wasnt mentioned. Sounds a bit like trolling to be honest.

But you barely mentioned it, in a very quiet, indirect manner. You wouldn't even notice it hadn't I been reading your post carefully.

I then started a new thread, not to gain attention, but so it could be discussed out in the open without you again accusing me of taking another thread off topic.

It is ironic, in the other thread about the price of a ticket to Cork, you accused me of taking a thread off topic when I stepped in to correct some factual mistakes some train supporters were spreading about the bus.

Now when I instead start a new thread, in order to avoid such an accusation, I instead get accused of trolling and looking for attention!

It seems to me, that you Hill Billy are the one who is trying to twist everything I saw in an attempt to get me banned.

I will point out that for a second time you are the one attempting back seat modding.

Con Logue wrote: »

I don't consider the OP to be trolling, but I doubt if he would object if the papers picked it up on a slow news day.

To be honest, I've no interest in seeing my post in the papers. As I said above, I started a new thread as I thought it was a very big development, pretty much a doubling in prices for most people who travel on the train to Cork and thus I thought it deserved it's own thread to be discussed, without again being accused by Hill Billy of taking a thread off topic. It seems I can't win either way.

bk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

the op could have just bumped the other thread instead of starting another thread about the same auld rant.

Really and end up being accused of taking another thread off topic by you?

Who died and made you the mod of this forum. Since when do you get to say when another poster can or cannot make a new thread?

bikeman1

How come it is rarely mentioned that Bus Eireann may be losing a lot of passengers to the express bus companies.

Have we factored in the fact that there have been no DUB - ORK flights since the Dublin Airport - Cork express buses started. Connecting pax at DUB have to travel by land now, opening up a nice little market for the bus companies.

It is also worth mentioning there are a good number of people who previously drove to Cork but with the huge increase in petrol, the cost of a return trip to Cork with two tolls and sometimes 3 if you use the Westlink can come in at around €70. Which if you are on your own is very expensive.

A friend of mine, working in Cork, up to January, would regularly take the bus over driving to save money.

He could have been classified as a new public transport user.

Without Irish Rails passenger figures we cant comment on how the peak evening customers have switched from the train to other modes.

corktina

LeftBlank wrote: »

It was mentioned here before that peak trains are excluded from the advance fare offers. This was first flagged many weeks ago.

And TBH, the bus vs. train threads are getting a little tiresome at this stage.

3pm and 7pm are hardly peak hours.

corktina

Lads, you aren't supporting the future of Rail by sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "la la la I can't hear you, rail is wonderful"

The fact is IE needs to get it's act together to stop the rot before it loses a critical amount of passengers to , yes, the bus , but also and more crucial, the car.

off peak fares need to be slashed to keep passengers on side, full trains always make more mney than empty ones, and people will vote with their feet.

For Rail to have a future, all persons supporting them need to query (as BK has here) the odd policies of IE as regards pricing.

BenShermin

Con Logue wrote: »

I don't doubt what you say, but I am curious about your source. Did you stand beside platform 5 at Heuston for a day and make observations with a notebook?

My transporting days are over . The switch from MK4s to 22Ks is common knowledge, also if you choose your own seat when booking a train you can see the different seating layouts. For example tomorrow's 0800 Dublin to Cork train is a 3 car 22k, the 1600 is two 3car 22ks according to the layouts.

bk

Thanks bikeman1, that is exactly the kind of interesting debate I was looking for. You are right, I hadn't thought about the ending of flights to Cork.

But then this happened well before the new bus services started, so I would assume Irish Rail had already gained them as customers, but might now be losing them to the bus.

I absolutely agree about your point about people deserting the cars for cheap buses. I've heard other people say the same.

In fact this is the whole reason I'm a fan of public transport. I want to see people leave their cars behind and use public transport instead.

I've long argued that cheap buses are more likely to get people out of their cars then expensive trains.

Obviously cheap buses and cheap trains would be even better, but unfortunately Irish Rail doesn't seem to be interested in that.

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

3pm and 7pm are hardly peak hours.

But you can't refer to them as being off peak. At a weekend especially these services are well used.

For what it's worth, 22000 work some off peak Dublin-Cork services for fuel economy reasons and as positioning units for set swaps on the Tralee branch.

Con Logue

corktina wrote: »

Lads, you aren't supporting the future of Rail by sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "la la la I can't hear you, rail is wonderful"

The fact is IE needs to get it's act together to stop the rot before it loses a critical amount of passengers to , yes, the bus , but also and more crucial, the car.

off peak fares need to be slashed to keep passengers on side, full trains always make more mney than empty ones, and people will vote with their feet.

For Rail to have a future, all persons supporting them need to query (as BK has here) the odd policies of IE as regards pricing.

I certainly don't think everything about rail policy is wonderful, I am simply skeptical about assertions about rail being presented as fact. The assumption that price, and ignorance of services offered by bus companies are the only things sustaining demand for travel by train is a bit thin to say the least.

If demand for train services at certain times is high, it justifies higher pricing. Of course, the converse is true. Can you blame Irish Rail if it makes the most of certain weekends where demand for rail travel between Dublin and Cork is higher? If was bringing a lady down to Cork for a weekend away then price would not be a primary factor, and I am not alone in my particular demographic in preferring the train in those circumstances. I am not a student and I am not that sensitive to price but I am concerned with the travel experience. Stopping for a slash and a Mars Bar in Urlingford or the presence of a jax on a bus isn't going to persuade me otherwise. Of course others will have their needs. But it is silly in the extreme to believe that there is one, true, absolute mode that fits all needs in all circumstances.

Victor

bikeman1 wrote: »

Have we factored in the fact that there have been no DUB - ORK flights since the Dublin Airport - Cork express buses started. Connecting pax at DUB have to travel by land now, opening up a nice little market for the bus companies.

This was killed by a combination of Ryanair, Irish Rail and the recession.

Richard Logue

bk wrote: »

I was under the impression that if you booked more then 7 days in advance, you would always get the "cheaper" fare, for instance €20 to Cork single.

But now I see that even if you book weeks in advance, they are now charging almost full fare for many journeys!!

For instance looking at Dublin to Cork on Friday 14th of June (over a month in advance) every train between 3pm and 7pm is €33 and the normal train I would take back from Cork on a Sunday would be the 6:20pm is also €33.

So even if I'd book over a month in advance for the journey I'd normally take, I'd be looking at €69 return including booking fees !!!!

That is just crazy. I thought it was a bad idea when they went from offering cheap fares 3 days in advance to 7 days, but I didn't realise they did this too!

And I see they are doing the same to Galway, etc.

This makes the train terrible value for money, almost 4 times more expensive then the bus, seriously what are they thinking, they will be handing passengers to the new bus services!

I'm surprised no one has noticed or mentioned this new development on here yet.

The 3pm-7pm higher prices bk refers to, apply on Fridays only out of Heuston and are on selected return trains at the weekend out of Kent. Adds: There seems to be one peak evening train out of Dublin and one peak morning train out of Cork on other days as the €32.99 price.

It is possible to book a €19.99 ticket on Friday 14th June and a €19.99 returning on Sunday 16th June, however the more popular trains have the higher €32.99 fare that bk is highlighting.

The cold hard fact is that the more expensive trains are the more popular ones and it seems that IE are trying to encourage use of the earlier or later trains on these peak dates.

This really isn't the work of Satan as bk would love you to believe, it's simply IE doing what other railways do and basing their prices around forecasted demand.

corktina

Con Logue wrote: »

I certainly don't think everything about rail policy is wonderful, I am simply skeptical about assertions about rail being presented as fact. The assumption that price, and ignorance of services offered by bus companies are the only things sustaining demand for travel by train is a bit thin to say the least.

If demand for train services at certain times is high, it justifies higher pricing. Of course, the converse is true. Can you blame Irish Rail if it makes the most of certain weekends where demand for rail travel between Dublin and Cork is higher? If was bringing a lady down to Cork for a weekend away then price would not be a primary factor, and I am not alone in my particular demographic in preferring the train in those circumstances. I am not a student and I am not that sensitive to price but I am concerned with the travel experience. Stopping for a slash and a Mars Bar in Urlingford or the presence of a jax on a bus isn't going to persuade me otherwise. Of course others will have their needs. But it is silly in the extreme to believe that there is one, true, absolute mode that fits all needs in all circumstances.

are you asserting that I believe that?
BK was not advocating switching to bus , he was bemoaning that it is so much more expensive to travel by train. Many people, me included would like to travel by train but rarely do as the car is so much cheaper quicker and conveniant. A sfor the bus, well I seriously doubt I would ever take the bus (even if it was feasible) but I must admit those prices and the modern vehicles are very tempting to some people

Richard Logue

Con Logue wrote: »

I certainly don't think everything about rail policy is wonderful, I am simply skeptical about assertions about rail being presented as fact. The assumption that price, and ignorance of services offered by bus companies are the only things sustaining demand for travel by train is a bit thin to say the least.

If demand for train services at certain times is high, it justifies higher pricing. Of course, the converse is true. Can you blame Irish Rail if it makes the most of certain weekends where demand for rail travel between Dublin and Cork is higher? If was bringing a lady down to Cork for a weekend away then price would not be a primary factor, and I am not alone in my particular demographic in preferring the train in those circumstances. I am not a student and I am not that sensitive to price but I am concerned with the travel experience. Stopping for a slash and a Mars Bar in Urlingford or the presence of a jax on a bus isn't going to persuade me otherwise. Of course others will have their needs. But it is silly in the extreme to believe that there is one, true, absolute mode that fits all needs in all circumstances.

What bk fails in my opinion to appreciate is that people have choices and not all choices are entirely based on price. If that was the case we would only have Aldi or Lidl in Ireland, and no Superquinn. Aer Lingus would not exist and we would all drive Dacias.

This thread is simply an attempt to rehash the same old same old rail versus bus arguments rather than a serious discussion on why some trains are priced higher than others. Instead we have a wily and slightly hysterical spin on higher pricing for particularly busy trains.