Is/was the country ever capable of managing itself?

Cody Pomeray

FTA69 wrote: »

I never said that deprivation is an excuse for independence, rather I brought that stuff up to counter the notion that Ireland pre-independence was a grand place altogether as opposed to the neglected colony it actually was.

Ireland's right to independence stems from its nationhood, a claim which was bolstered throughout history due to the calibre of British governance in Ireland over the years.

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On the one hand you're saying that maladministration and poverty has nothing to do with our right to independence.

In the next paragraph you say it bolstered it.

Well which is it?

FTA69

I said that Ireland's right to independence stems from it's nationhood. The fact is that British misgovernment was also a huge factor in attracting people to the independence movement. A process which occurred in many other countries.

The Corinthian

Irish economic history is a culmination of numerous factors; structural/demographic, ideological and cultural.

To begin with Ireland is a sparsely populated nation and this can make economies of scale very difficult to achieve. Many businesses find it difficult to make a profit here, because the we don't have the population to actually support a large enough market to justify the investment of trading. Publishing is a good example of this as its revenue (sales or advertising) is directly related to circulation.

Then there's economic and population distribution. In that respect, we're not unlike Greece; one big (capital) city where the bulk of the population and industry is concentrated, a few smaller cities with a fraction of same and the rest are one horse towns - such distribution is highly inefficient and places serious strains on any economy.

Historically, ideology has been a factor too. With independence we decided to peruse a high degree of autarky, despite the fact that as a small nation we were less able to do this, based upon a romantic, nationalist ideal, which saw us as a nation of farmers and comely maidens dancing at the crossroads. "To maintain as many families as practicable on the land" is still a stated aim of Fianna Fail, for example.

But were I to put my finger on the single biggest factor it is cultural; we're professional victims. I remember in the eighties asking why Ireland was so backward economically and being told it was because of "800 years of oppression" - 60 years after independence!

This sense of victimhood, that someone else was responsible for our plight - be it the English, the Church, the bankers or whomever - has led us to a situation whereby we don't really feel responsible and, worse still, expect someone else to bail us out because of this.

This is probably best evidenced by the difference between the Irish at home and those abroad, who lacking someone to blame or look to for a bailout, were able to roll up their sleeves and succeed where back home we sat back, waiting for someone else to sort it out for us.

And it is this that has led us to forever seek an "Irish solution to an Irish problem" where it comes to our economy and governance - short-term, ultimately self-defeating, egocentric and half-arsed.

In reality, many other nations share our corruption, provincialism or low economies of scale, however few are burdened with the same level of victimhood. Most of Europe managed to roll up its sleeves after World War II and had left us (a neutral nation who avoided the conflict) in the dust within a decade. Instead we moaned about how the 'Emergency' had destroyed our economy and how we were suffering from "800 years of oppression".

And from what I can see, we've not changed much.

Cody Pomeray

Oh God.