Europa League format discussion

legendary.xix

Two teams who finished third in their Champions League groups have qualified for the Europa League final. Is it right for Champions League teams to be parachuted in to the competition like that? Surely once any group stage is under way that should be the teams who will win any competition.

http://www.itv.com/sport/football/article/2013-02-05/clubs-call-for-europa-league-winners-to-be-given-champions-league-spot/

Clubs have called for Europa League winners to be allowed into the Champions League. Is that a fair shout to make the competition more competitive?

I'd disagree with the call in the article above for the finalists to earn a spot. If Chelsea had not won the Champions League last year, they would not have been in the Champions League. It wouldn't be logical for the runner-up in the Europa League to get a CL spot but no spot then being available for CL runner-up.

electrobanana

ah this old chestnut

dreamers75

Drop the CL drop ins and it would be a better competition.


But the CL drop ins bring more money to teams then the ones that are in it ie Chelsea would earn a team more money in gates and tv money than Newcastle.

Qualifying rounds are the best part of it tbh

klose

I think the winner of the europa should go straight into the group stages of the champions league, there'll be a problem advocating the place and taking it away from another country though.

legendary.xix

electrobanana wrote: »

ah this old chestnut

Timely again after this evening in some respects after two CL drop outs getting to the final.

klose wrote: »

I think the winner of the europa should go straight into the group stages of the champions league, there'll be a problem advocating the place and taking it away from another country though.

A survey amongst ECA clubs showed over 60% in favour. Competitions can have natural evolution. It would seem the perfect fit.

The ECA said 87 member clubs from 36 countries responded to the survey, and that:

:: 75% expressed "satisfaction" or "extreme satisfaction" with the current structure and format of UEFA's club competitions
:: 92% believe the Champions League and the Europa League should continue to exist in parallel
:: 61% would welcome offering the Europa League winner and/or finalists qualifying directly for the Champions League group stage the following season.

DazMarz

I'd be totally in favour of giving a place in the Champions League to the Europa League winner (not just saying that cos I'm a Chelsea fan either; I've been of that opinion for a long time).

I was honestly under the naive impression that it was the case a few years ago, given how Porto did the year after their UEFA Cup triumph. I failed to realise they'd qualified for the Champions League on the merit of winning the Portuguese League (I was a stupid teenager back then, gimme a break!).

How the spot should be portioned out should the winner of the EL already be qualified for the CL on the back of their league position is another problem. The runner-up? Possibly. But what if both have already qualified for the following season's CL with their domestic league position? 3rd and 4th place play-off? That would be a cracking game, considering how much would be at stake for the winner/loser.

But it's all up in the air and "in theory". UEFA probably won't change a thing.

dfx-

The Europa League should be its own separate competition with its trophy as a separate achievement.

There shouldn't be a CL place for the winners and third place in the CL groups shouldn't be parachuted in. The other competition should have nothing to do with the Europa League.

eagle eye

I think there should be a place in the Champion's league for the winning team.

I think it would make it a lot more interesting because every team would be trying. There are teams in it over the last few years who have not put a huge effort in because they had the opportunity in their own leagues to qualify for the CL and it really undermines the competition I think.

adamski8

Yeah there should be a big format change with the europa league completely scrapped.

mike65

I'd just made it smaller - no 3rd place flops from the CL, no secondary Cup winners, no fair play league side but the prize should be a CL place for the winner. If the winner is already qualified for the CL then the losing side gets a place in the third qualifying round. If both teams have qualified by right then obviously no place for the next best side (no play off!).

legendary.xix

mike65 wrote: »

I'd just made it smaller - no 3rd place flops from the CL, no secondary Cup winners, no fair play league side but the prize should be a CL place for the winner. If the winner is already qualified for the CL then the losing side gets a place in the third qualifying round. If both teams have qualified by right then obviously no place for the next best side (no play off!).

The third placed teams dropping in is ruining what the competition should be for. The teams of a decent level but not good enough to make the Champions League this season should have been left battling for the Europa League cup. What's the point in having a group stage if teams who were not in the group stage are being parachuted in?

Red Crow

I don't think the CL teams should be allowed to enter the competition and I certainly don't think the Europa League winner should get a CL place.

The Europa League rebranding has failed. I think teams would be more interested if there was a CL place available but that CL place would have to come from the league of the winner. I don't think in its current format that the Europa League can be improved upon by so much as to justify the resignation of another CL spot.

In its current format it's a bit of a joke. It's Europe for losers and teams don't care until their in the final.

legendary.xix

Eli Manning wrote: »

I don't think the CL teams should be allowed to enter the competition and I certainly don't think the Europa League winner should get a CL place.

The Europa League rebranding has failed. I think teams would be more interested if there was a CL place available but that CL place would have to come from the league of the winner. I don't think in its current format that the Europa League can be improved upon by so much as to justify the resignation of another CL spot.

In its current format it's a bit of a joke. It's Europe for losers and teams don't care until their in the final.

We'll have to agree to disagree regards EL winner earning a CL spot. I think it'll be a fair reward. It'd give the competition a completely different emphasis. Currently teams are disinterested in it. There is no real reward. A CL spot would really spice it up.

I accept your point that the place will come at the expense of someone. It's something that would have to be worked out within the context of the access list. I still think it's worth it though. Giving the EL winner a CL spot would boost many competitions. There'll be an added incentive to even with a cup competition providing a possible route to the CL.

An idea was thrown out by UEFA a few years ago to give a CL spot to cup winners. I think this was quite rightly rebuffed and shot down. If a team enters the Europa League however and go on and win it, I think it's a fair call to promote them to Europe's premier competition.

There's a flaw in the European competition currently that champions of national leagues who lose out in qualifying rounds 1 and 2 are out of Europe all together. It's only the losers of qualifier round 3 and the CL play-offs who have a safety net. I'd like to see all losing champions at the qualifier stages have the Europa safety net. They all deserve at least 4 european games. The knock-on affect is that is that despite the huge size of the Europa League, I'd like to see it being 16 groups of 4. With the top 2 in each group going into the Round of 32 with out and CL drop outs from the CL group stage.

While the above might seem far fetched, there is many positives. Cup competitions as I say being boosted. Champions from lower nations would benefit being in a competition being taken more seriously by the likes of Spurs, Everton or Liverpool. It'd be hard to see Liverpool or Spurs turning their noses up at the EL if it offered a pathway to the CL. If they were taking it seriously, it'll filter down to have far more vibrant games against teams from all over Europe.

CSF

The whole format of European football is wrong (2nd, 3rd and 4th place finishers getting into the Champions League) but in the end UEFA are going to do what brings in the money. A Fenerbahce v Basel final wouldn't really have done that.

Lennonist

They should scrap the EL. They should expand the CL change it's name and call it the European League. Split it into a CL1 and CL2 if necessary with promotion into the CL1 for the top 4 in CL2.

Pepe LeFrits

Get rid of the CL teams and split the money between the CL and the EL 50:50.

legendary.xix

CSF wrote: »

The whole format of European football is wrong (2nd, 3rd and 4th place finishers getting into the Champions League) but in the end UEFA are going to do what brings in the money. A Fenerbahce v Basel final wouldn't really have done that.

Platini looked a little disinterested in the final the other night. I'd say they are very much aware the CL teams dropping in is going against in some respects what they want from the competition. There's have to be some movement and lobbying from middle ranking clubs for that to change.

Part of the reason for the old UEFA Cup adopting the group stage format was to appease clubs who were looking to create their own competition like a North Atlantic League or the like. There was talks of Scottish, Belgian and Dutch and maybe some others having a 4 groups of 4 competition.

The Europa League was to bring an end to all that. In some respects it has. A few years ago there was a group: Hapoel Tel Aviv, Hamburg, Celtic and Rapid Wien. Celtic were often calling for a North Atlantic League. The group they were in was similar to the level of football they'd have played in a North Atlantic League.

When 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed teams as you say are entering the champions league, well then the champions of lower nations should all have the safety net of falling into the Europa League be it qualiying round 3, the play-offs or group stages.

Richard Hillman

Get rid of the group stages

dsmythy

Yeah I'd say go back to two legged knockout rounds and maybe even scrap the pre-qualifying for the Europa League. Gather 128 or 256 teams seed them and draw them. The "magic" of the Europa League could be created with real minnows against much much larger teams possible in the earliest round.

legendary.xix

dsmythy wrote: »

Yeah I'd say go back to two legged knockout rounds and maybe even scrap the pre-qualifying for the Europa League. Gather 128 or 256 teams seed them and draw them. The "magic" of the Europa League could be created with real minnows against much much larger teams possible in the earliest round.

If UEFA were to do that, some clubs around Europe will be looking for a North Atlantic League type competition e.g. Scottish, Dutch, Belgian and a few clubs forming their own competition of 4 groups of 4 or something. With the EL group stage they more or less get that level of competition.

The killer for the Europa League group stages currently is that the teams advancing from the group are faced with teams parachuting in from the champions league. It kills off any stories of teams battling their way through a europa league group and them the knock-out stages to go on and win the cup.

Rekop dog

More prizemoney for success and you'd be sure that teams would take it more seriously. That's the long and short of it really, if there's greater financial incentive for teams to chase a CL place in there respective leagues they're going to give that greater attention and rest players in the EL. You can bang on about structure/format all day long but the attitude of some teams towards the comp won't alter without a significant increase in money.

Seaneh

The winner of the EL gets less money than the team who finishes 4th in the group stage in the CL, that has to change for a start.

Giving a CL spot to the winner and a higher financial reward for the finalists and you can guarantee teams will stop using their reserves in the opening rounds and not wait until the last 16 to take it seriously.

Seaneh

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Get rid of the CL teams and split the money between the CL and the EL 50:50.

I don't agree with 50:50, but 70:30 would be a good start, as is the difference is massive.

Owen_S

Hopefully we will see Spurs in the Champions League next year, since Chelsea will be set on getting automatic qualification to the Europa League next year to defend it :pac:

Coillte_Bhoy

klose wrote: »

I think the winner of the europa should go straight into the group stages of the champions league, there'll be a problem advocating the place and taking it away from another country though.

No, not necessarily. Take it away from the qualifiers maybe?

Seaneh

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

No, not necessarily. Take it away from the qualifiers maybe?

That would still mean another country losing one of their qualification spots.

YouTookMyName

Lennonist wrote: »

They should scrap the EL. They should expand the CL change it's name and call it the European League. Split it into a CL1 and CL2 if necessary with promotion into the CL1 for the top 4 in CL2.

No it's bloated enough as it is.

Coillte_Bhoy

Seaneh wrote: »

That would still mean another country losing one of their qualification spots.

No it would mean one team less from the pre qualifying rounds

Seaneh

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

No it would mean one team less from the pre qualifying rounds

er, exactly, which would mean that a country loses a spot in the qualifying rounds.

The Champions League starts before the group stage.

Coillte_Bhoy

Seaneh wrote: »

er, exactly, which would mean that a country loses a spot in the qualifying rounds.

The Champions League starts before the group stage.

Of course, not sure what i was thinking off tbh

Though of you agree to bring it in in a few seasons from now one spot would go but you wouldnt necessarily know which country was going to lose it. Depends on co efficient.

Seaneh

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Of course, not sure what i was thinking off tbh

Though of you agree to bring it in in a few seasons from now one spot would go but you wouldnt necessarily know which country was going to lose it. Depends on co efficient.

I think it should be taken from the top, 3rd place in the co-efficients loosing it.

Which right now, I think, would be England?

ArmaniJeanss

Seaneh wrote: »

Giving a CL spot to the winner and a higher financial reward for the finalists and you can guarantee teams will stop using their reserves in the opening rounds and not wait until the last 16 to take it seriously.

Who doesn't take it seriously? From what I can see it seems to be only the English and Italian teams who treat it completely an an inconvenience.
Making changes to appease two leagues when the other fifty-one seem OK with the competition is not necessarily sensible.

Because we get to see only English teams on TV3/ITV4 during the group stages we see the worst of the competition and perhaps get a false idea of it.

Seaneh

Even the German and Spanish teams don't take it seriously until after the group stages.

There is little to no incentive for th clubs from the bigger leagues to try and win the competition, the financial rewards for them are too minimal.


Like it or lump it, the EL is an inconvenience for the bigger clubs in Europe and potentially costs them more through injury and fatigue of players than they gain from winning it.

legendary.xix

Rekop dog wrote: »

More prizemoney for success and you'd be sure that teams would take it more seriously. That's the long and short of it really, if there's greater financial incentive for teams to chase a CL place in there respective leagues they're going to give that greater attention and rest players in the EL. You can bang on about structure/format all day long but the attitude of some teams towards the comp won't alter without a significant increase in money.

I think it's natural there's more prize money in the CL. Giving the EL winner a CL spot is an incentive in itself.

legendary.xix

Seaneh wrote: »

That would still mean another country losing one of their qualification spots.

As mentioned by someone else, it'll be down to the access list. If the ECA survey is anything to go by there is interest amongst Europe's top clubs for the EL winner to enter the CL. It is the more natural reward for winning the competition, promotion to Europe's premier competition.

losthorizon

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Who doesn't take it seriously? From what I can see it seems to be only the English and Italian teams who treat it completely an an inconvenience.
Making changes to appease two leagues when the other fifty-one seem OK with the competition is not necessarily sensible.

Because we get to see only English teams on TV3/ITV4 during the group stages we see the worst of the competition and perhaps get a false idea of it.

Seaneh wrote: »

Even the German and Spanish teams don't take it seriously until after the group stages.

There is little to no incentive for th clubs from the bigger leagues to try and win the competition, the financial rewards for them are too minimal.


Like it or lump it, the EL is an inconvenience for the bigger clubs in Europe and potentially costs them more through injury and fatigue of players than they gain from winning it.

My cousins are from Catalonia and they take the competition very seriously in Spain as is indicated by all the winners Spain has had. The reason Italy has dropped off is not because of a lack of interest but because their league has dipped alarmingly overall in strength down through the years. Its shocking to believe how bad Serie A has got compared with the 80s and early '90s. As for Germany although they havent won much their clubs have performed at a very high level and have been up there challenging for the trophy and this is shown by their gaining of an extra CL place.

Having talked to many fans of clubs around Europe when following City on our Euro adventures its fairly plain to see that everybody takes that trophy very seriously.

Talk is cheap but trophies count and nobody wants to lose.

Mr Cumulonimbus

Looks like the EL winners will get a place in the CL according to bits in the Guardian, Daily Mail and ITV. Also mentioned on the BBC website.

To be confirmed by UEFA tomorrow apparently. 2015 EL winners would get into next season's CL.

Chucky the tree

I take it if the winners already qualify then it goes to the runners up?

Chucky the tree

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I take it if the winners already qualify then it goes to the runners up?

and what if both finalists have already qualified for the CL?

Seaneh

rarnes1 wrote: »

and what if both finalists have already qualified for the CL?

I'm sure they have figured this out, in fairness...

Outkast_IRE

rarnes1 wrote: »

and what if both finalists have already qualified for the CL?

It goes to a wheel of fortune, with all the competition entrants having a chance. They spin the wheel and whoever it lands on wins, like the wheel in winning streak.

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

I'm sure they have figured this out, in fairness...

I'm asking the question

Seaneh

losthorizon wrote: »

My cousins are from Catalonia

My cousins are from Croydon, so what? Waht does that have to do with the price of sausages?

The fact is that none of the bigger teams in europe from any of the bigger leagues take the EL seriously until AFTER THE GROUP STAGES.

If you look at the squads that teams from Italy, Germany, France, Spain, England and even portugal at times, put out for the first rounds of the competition and even during the group stages, you'd be forced to acknowledge that.

For a team competing for champions league qualification spot in their domestic league, the EL is a distraction to them. There is in financial incentive for them to focus on the EL, it's actually punitive in that it means their best players aren't at peak fittness for league matches and could cost them in injuries and fatigue and end up costing them a spot in the following seasons Champions League. And whether fans acknowledge it or not, clubs car far more about getting into the group stages of the CL than they do about winning the EL, it's worth far more to them financially, and at the end of the day, for most clubs, that's what matters, whether the fans realise it or now.

Italian clubs have been using the EL as a place to play their squad players and Primavera squad players since the early 2000's, they see no financial or sporting incentive to win the competition and instead choose to focus on trying to compete for one of the 3 (formerly 4) champions league spots. German, Spanish, French and English clubs, by and large, do the same thing until the later stages of the competition.

Seaneh

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'm asking the question

Well, they haven't released any details yet... maybe ask tomorrow after they make the announcement?

dsmythy

The next two Europa League's will be a pair of lame ducks so. They should rename it the Champions League Season Long Qualifying Tournament. The cup isn't suddenly respected. It makes it a meal ticket rather than a trophy. The winners will be qualifiers rather than champions.

Chucky the tree

dsmythy wrote: »

The next two Europa League's will be a pair of lame ducks so. They should rename it the Champions League Season Long Qualifying Tournament. The cup isn't suddenly respected. It makes it a meal ticket rather than a trophy. The winners will be qualifiers rather than champions.

It gives teams an incentive to take it seriously which should improve the quality. I'd rather watch great teams taking it seriously than having to watch Fulham in the final even if the great teams aren't to pushed about a trophy.

Omackeral

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

To be confirmed by UEFA tomorrow apparently. 2015 EL winners would get into next season's CL.

Whoa that's some feat. Will this upset the time-space continuum with the travelling back to 2014 and all!?

I think if you win the Europa League, you've as much right as a 4th place finisher to be in the Champion's League. I miss the Cup Winners Cup though!

5starpool

dsmythy wrote: »

The next two Europa League's will be a pair of lame ducks so. They should rename it the Champions League Season Long Qualifying Tournament. The cup isn't suddenly respected. It makes it a meal ticket rather than a trophy. The winners will be qualifiers rather than champions.

Only next years winners will not qualify the following season. The new rule comes in the season after.

LETS BE AVN IT

So happy with this news. Gives clubs like West Ham great incentive of one day playing in the Champions League.

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

Well, they haven't released any details yet... maybe ask tomorrow after they make the announcement?

Maybe don't be so condescending. I was asking a genuine question.

legendary.xix

I've been calling for this for a while. It's a natural progression for the competition. David O'Leary was calling for this as far back as about 2001 or 2002 when Leeds were in the old UEFA Cup. It offers a fair incentive in fairness for teams to push on and take the competition seriously.

This also should have a knock positive for domestic cups. UEFA put out an idea of Cup winners being allowed into the Champions League a few years ago but rightly had that idea shot down. If a cup winners goes into the Europa League and win it, I think it's right and proper their allowed enter the Champions League. Europa League is effectively being treated as a domestic competition in some respects.