Program Analysis - Programs rated, debated and berated.

thegreatiam

TimeToShine wrote: »

Anyone take a look at this, simple push/pull, been doing it for nearly a year now, just haven't found the need to change even though it's recommended you don't stick to one program for too long. Info: 22, 5'7 80kg around 18-19% looking to drop it down to 13 or so and maintain muscle mass.

A:
Front squat
Barbell OHP
Bench press DB/BB alternating
Dips (weighted)

B:
Weighted wide grip pronated pullups (don't know if I should do chinups as well?)
Deadlift
DB/BB row alternating
Seated cable row
light facepull with focus on scapular retraction

Every now and again i'll do cleans instead of deadlifts but this is just a random fancy of mine rather than anything solid.

20 mins foam rolling and dynamic stretching before every session, 10 min static stretching after.

Similar to my program.
Except I do not alternate DB/BB
I also back squat on the other day.

Maybe consider alternating chin ups with pull ups.

Not sure about pull ups, rows and DL on the same day tho. Your back must be in bits after, would you be able to get maximum results from the back exercises like that?.

I do rows on the bench day. Maybe someone else can clarify which would be best.

Will Heffernan

thegreatiam wrote: »

Maybe consider alternating chin ups with pull ups.

Agreed.

Not sure about pull ups, rows and DL on the same day tho.

Agreed.

Your back must be in bits after,

Agreed.

would you be able to get maximum results from the back exercises like that?

Never understood people who do 'this'. See it quite a bit and I always shake my head in wonder. Maybe if you are a bodybuilder and you are doing 'back day' and you are deliberately doing back, followed by back and then a super set of back with other back work. But the B session makes absolutely no sense at all to me....what are we talking 250+ reps of back work? If you can deadlift after your weighted pull ups then you are either not doing enough reps or not using enough weight. If you can do your DB/BB rows after weighted pull ups and then deadlifting then....etc etc etc.

From what the OP posted I think the following makes much more sense:

A:
Front squat
Weighted wide grip pronated pullups
DB/BB row alternating
Dips (weighted)
light facepull with focus on scapular retraction

B:
Deadlift
Bench press DB/BB alternating
Barbell OHP
Seated cable row

Or something along those lines. I am not overly happy with it and it's not what I'd do or how I'd program it but it's what I'd do if I had a gun to my head and had to use the exercises given.

workoutadvice

bump* any one have anything to add to my program?

burrenguy

workoutadvice wrote: »

would any of you good people mind having a look at my program and recommending any changes if there needed.

goals: get stronger / look better / add muscle
age:25
training back ground: have lifted regularly in past and got good progress up to 160 squat, 180 deadlift, 100 bench all with good technique while adding a good bit of muscle while staying lean, havent trained properly in 2 years due to laziness / circumstances im injury free.

place im training has no squat rack , olympic bars allright just no where to squat which is a pity because i love back squats. anyway heres what im thinking.

my gym doesnt have a foam roller but i intend on purchasing one,
5 - 10 min warm up before each session focusing on hip/ shoulder mobility
then working up to starting weights main lifts

Monday :
Deadlift 6x3
Lunges walking 3x12
Bench Press 3 x 6
DB Biceps Curls 3 x 12

Core:
Circuit of 3 ab exercises x 3
weighed crunch
reverse crunch
plank

Wednesday:
DB Goblet Squats 3x6
RDL 3x12
Chin Ups 3 x 6
Cable Tricep Press Downs 3 x 12

Friday:
D.B. clean and press 3 x 6
Dips Parallel Bars 3 x max
Inverted Row 3 x max

core
something similar to monday but diffrent excercises

Thoughts:

should i drop the d.b. clean and press for a barbell overhead press?

should i be maxing out on Parallel bar dips and inverted rows (im purpusly not maxing on chins as ive heard not going to falure is better?)

Is one chest excersice enough, barbell bench press? should i be doing a d.b. press as a assistance excercise, i have dips on friday but dont know if theres much of a cross over to bench strength with dips?

any comments / advice / telling me this is complete crap welcome

I'm not qualified, i just have a great interest, so take anything I say merely as opinion.
Monday
Deadlift looks good.
You can do hack squats if you want to squat but don't have a rack. Its not the same, but its decent.
Bench press is grand, as is the arm work at the end.

Core
What I have seen recommended for core circuits is one trunk curling motion (crunch, ab wheel rollouts etc.) one rotational movement ( eg. lateral medicine ball throws) and a plank variation for time. Recommended was to have 1 day of weighted exercises, 3 sets of 10 reps approx and then a weighted isometric core exercise. The other day was a lighter day (up to 20 reps) and an unweighted plank hold.

Wednesday
Looks alright to me. I presume you're adding weight to the chins if you're doing a specific rep scheme. You could probably do biceps and triceps in the same workout if you want to include isolation exercises in your routine. You've no pressing movement on this day. Maybe you could consider doing the BB overhead press on this day?

Friday
Good to have the cleans in there, there a good exercise. I'd keep it if I were you and have the overhead press on Wednesday.
Regarding the dips and inverted rows.. if you have access to a dip belt, you could start adding weight once you hit 3 sets of 15-20. If not, slow down the tempo, add pauses, etc. to make it more difficult. For the inverted rows, once you're at 3 sets of 15-20 reps, you can do the same: add weight with a weighted vest/backpack/DB between your legs, or slow it down and add pauses.

You should notice some crossover between dips and benching, especially if you start to add weight.

any conditioning work in during the week? One or two sprint sessions a week are great if you're short on time.

anyway, enough rambling. I hope you got something useful from this. Good luck!

Zombienosh

Hey all,

Just got a quick question about squat supplement exercises....
I've got weak glute/abductor issues and my knees are going in. I'm dropping back the weight and focusing on the weakness during the squat, but what exercises could I add in that might help?

I'm doing a 5x5, I'm squatting 3 days.

I was thinking box squats might help? Or Bulgarian squats? What do you think?


thanks.

Chancer3001

A- bench , squat, pull ups chin ups

B - deadlifts, rows, shoulders, arms.

4 times a week.

Soccer 3 times a week for cardio and fun

Just wondering, my hamstrings are surely neglected here? Does anybody do hamstring specific work? Don't want to be too quad dominant.

RidleyRider

Chancer3001 wrote: »

A- bench , squat, pull ups chin ups

B - deadlifts, rows, shoulders, arms.

4 times a week.

Soccer 3 times a week for cardio and fun

Just wondering, my hamstrings are surely neglected here? Does anybody do hamstring specific work? Don't want to be too quad dominant.

Throw in some SLDL's or GM's. And good luck getting up the following morning!

Alf Veedersane

RidleyRider wrote: »

Throw in some SLDL's or GM's. And good luck getting up the following morning!

Or RDLs. I remember the world of a pain from DOMS a day or two later.

Will Heffernan

Zombienosh wrote: »

Hey all,

Just got a quick question about squat supplement exercises....
I've got weak glute/abductor issues and my knees are going in. I'm dropping back the weight and focusing on the weakness during the squat, but what exercises could I add in that might help?

I know that people always think I am being an a-hole for some reason so I feel like I have to preface everything I say so don't take this the wrong way...you just need to squat properly...that's it. You don't need other exercises. You don't need to 'activate' your glutes and you should be wary of anyone that says rubbish like that. You need to ensure that you learn to squat properly and then do that each time you train and don't let your technique (i.e your knees go in) be compromised. If your knees are going in it's because you either can't handle the load or you can't squat.

I'm doing a 5x5, I'm squatting 3 days.

I was thinking box squats might help? Or Bulgarian squats? What do you think?

I think you are doing plenty of squatting and doing box squats and bulgarian squats are great but unless you learn to squat properly they won't make a lick of difference. Unless your technique is right push ups will help you just as much as box squatting...as in not at all.

thanks.

You're welcome.

Will Heffernan

Chancer3001 wrote: »

A- bench , squat, pull ups chin ups

B - deadlifts, rows, shoulders, arms.

4 times a week.

Soccer 3 times a week for cardio and fun

Just wondering, my hamstrings are surely neglected here? Does anybody do hamstring specific work? Don't want to be too quad dominant.

I think you should just change the order:
A- bench, deadlifts, shoulders, arms.

B - pull ups chin ups, squats, rows.

4 times a week.

Soccer 3 times a week for cardio and fun.

Would make a lot more sense to me.

LuckyLloyd

Zombienosh wrote: »

Hey all,

Just got a quick question about squat supplement exercises....
I've got weak glute/abductor issues and my knees are going in. I'm dropping back the weight and focusing on the weakness during the squat, but what exercises could I add in that might help?

I'm doing a 5x5, I'm squatting 3 days.

I was thinking box squats might help? Or Bulgarian squats? What do you think?


thanks.

An article from my coach on this very topic:

Will Walshe wrote:

It's your fault:

There’s a funny little full-circle that people go through with regards to learning good technique. You have a guy on day 1 who’s knees collapse in when he squats, and he learns “ok, I need to push my knees out when I squat”. After he’s been training a while you often see people blundering around in this phase of “oh, my glutes and external rotators are weak, so I need to do a lot of activation drills and specific strengthening exercises to work on this and fix the problem”. Finally, we get back to “you know what, the most specific strengthening exercise I can do here is pushing my knees out every time I squat”.

The cure for bad technique is good technique. The more you practice lifting with good technique, the stronger all the muscles responsible for maintaining good positions will become.

If you have a sticking point in a lift, you need to find ways to practice the lift without the problem happening. That could mean taking some weight off the bar and doing more volume, that could mean practicing one little piece over and over again by itself, or it could just mean being more patient.

The second you become the person who thinks “my knees collapse in when I squat heavier than 100kgs”, you've made it true. Your knees don’t just magically collapse, you LET them collapse by not pushing them out hard enough when you stand.

That’s a very important attitude shift – “my knees collapse” means it’s not your fault and there’s nothing you can do about it. “I let my knees collapse” means you ****ed up the lift by looking for the path of least resistance and if you’d put more effort in to doing it right you would have got it.

Now, this is not a comfortable place to be, it is however, the best way to make progress. Adopting the attitude that your fitness problems are 100% your fault is the only way you can fix them.

“I don't have time to exercise” is insolvable. “I don't MAKE time to exercise” is something you can fix.

“I got caught out and had to eat in McDonalds” is insolvable. “I didn't plan my day properly, and I wasn't clever enough to order a salad and some hamburgers with no bun” is fixable.

“I was too tired to train” sounds like a big problem. “I’m tired all the time because I don’t train enough” can be fixed.

You’re a grown-up, and you can sort your own stuff out, but only if you believe that it’s something can fix.

Alf Veedersane

Funnily enough, i've had that problem of late too. But i realised my problem was there were certain elements of technique i didn't concentrate on until I needed to, i.e. at the heavier end of the scale. Sure fire way to get yourself into bad habits and probably pick up an injury. So I've worked on pushing my knees out on every set,from just the bar up to the 1RM. It's improved matters no end.

Chancer3001

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I think you should just change the order:
A- bench, deadlifts, shoulders, arms.

B - pull ups chin ups, squats, rows.

Would make a lot more sense to me.

Cool, whys that?

Will Heffernan

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Cool, whys that?

I just try to even out the volume. I always try to think of how I can move the most weight in a session...along with how can I get the most stimulus in the session.

If you are doing deadlifting (back work), rowing (back work), chin ups (back work), pull ups (back work) all in the same session...which I know you are not...but as in your case...deadlifting and rows I don't think are a great combo.

I just don't think it is efficient or particularly effective programming.

If that's not a good enough or complete enough explanation for you I'm happy to explain it further but I am hoping you get the picture?

Chancer3001

So not over taxing the back?

Way I had it was chest, legs, back, back

Back, back, shoulders, arms

So 2 backs per session...balanced?

Maybe the intensity of the back is a problem, obviously deadlifts impact more than chin ups.

I'm rambling a bit....it's no biggy to change the order. But I do like to have bench and squats together, do them in between each other. Bench, squat, bench, squat

Zombienosh

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I know that people always think I am being an a-hole for some reason so I feel like I have to preface everything I say so don't take this the wrong way...you just need to squat properly...that's it. You don't need other exercises. You don't need to 'activate' your glutes and you should be wary of anyone that says rubbish like that. You need to ensure that you learn to squat properly and then do that each time you train and don't let your technique (i.e your knees go in) be compromised. If your knees are going in it's because you either can't handle the load or you can't squat.


I think you are doing plenty of squatting and doing box squats and bulgarian squats are great but unless you learn to squat properly they won't make a lick of difference. Unless your technique is right push ups will help you just as much as box squatting...as in not at all.



You're welcome.

Cool, thanks. That's what I was thinking, hence lowering the weight and just focusing on form more.

thecatspjs

I'm back in college on Monday and I'll be hitting the gym. I'm trying to set up a programme and I could do with some help. I'm relatively fit and I have a decent diet, 6'1'' and 12 stone. My aim is to get stronger, and develop some muscle definition.

I was thinking of doing a 3 day workout:

Monday, Chest and triceps:

-Bench
-Incline bench
-Dumbell flys
-Dips
-Tricep Extensions

Wednesday, Back and biceps:

-Neutral grip pull ups
-Wide grip drop downs (I don't know what they're called, it's when I start at the top and lower myself down slowly)
-Single arm rows
-Dumbbell curls
-Shrugs

Friday, Legs and shoulders:

-Barbell squat
-Dumbbell lunges
-Leg press
-Sitting shoulder press
-Lateral raises
-Front raises

Any opinions on this would be really helpful. If you think this is all rubbish and I should consider something totally different please let me know.

Chancer3001

Add deadlifts on back day.

Don't worry so much about he ones that only work one muscle, or small muscle groups like bicep curls

thecatspjs

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Add deadlifts on back day.

Don't worry so much about he ones that only work one muscle, or small muscle groups like bicep curls

Yes, that is something I want to do. I've never done them before and I don't have a spotter. Do you think I'd be OK to give them a go based on instructional videos? Or would that be risky? I'll ask the trainer who works there to show me but I'm not sure they do much except for classes and show people how to use the machines.

Chancer3001

The person who works there will show ou how o do it.
That's basically their job.

Also watch nstructional videos too.

You don't use a spotter for deadlifts.

harpstilidie

So I've now finished this programme since my gym membership expired and I don't plan on going back to the gym until the new year as I'm getting married and moving house etc.


1A. Lateral Pulldown-48kg, 4 sets of 15.
1B. Machine- 45kg, 4 sets of 15.

Vertical leg crunch- 4 sets of 25.
Side Bridge - 4 sets of 30 secs per side.

2A. Dumbbell Bent Over Row- 40lbs, 4 sets of 15.
2B. Alternate Arm Dumbbell Press - 20lbs, 4 sets of 15.

Bicycle Crunches- 4 sets of 25.
Torso rotation with 8kg medicine ball- 4 sets of 25.

3A. Bicep Curl- 35lbs, 4 sets of 10.
3B. Tricep Cable Press Down - 18kg, 4 sets of 10.

Ab exercise (don't know name)- 4 sets of 25.
Hip Thrusters - 4 sets of 20.

Cardio- Treadmill- 6km.

I was also doing some running on non-gym days and football on Wednesdays. 7 months ago when I joined the gym I was about 75-76KG. I am now about 65KG so very happy with my progress. I have also put on some muscle, not as much as I thought I would but happy enough. You can now just about see the outline of my abs.

I'm looking for some advice on what I can do at home until the new year in regards to weights, bodyweight exercises etc. I have dumbbells but no bench and I'm happy to continue my running. What kind of programme should I go for? I would like those abs to show through properly so I'm assuming I need to lose a bit more body fat? Can't be that much though. Would also like to bulk up a small bit but I'm assuming this might be tough as I've limited weights? Would appreciate some advice please. Thanks

burrenguy

How does my workout look?
Only have access to a barbell and bodyweight exercises as I train at home currently.
Day 1
Deadlift: 3x5
OH Press: 3x5
Rows/ Cleans (depending on if I can learn to do power cleans): 3x5

Day 2
Front/ Hack squat (again depending on if I can learn to clean the bar up for front squats): 3x5
Pull ups/chin ups: 3x max (until I hit 10 across all sets, then I'll add weight)
Dips/ push ups: 3x max (dips up to 15, push ups up to 20? Only add weight to dips though)

I'm looking at working out four days a week probably, with Day 1 Monday, Day 2 Tuesday, day off Wednesday, Day 1 on Thursday and Day 2 on Friday.

Thoughts?

burrenguy

harpstilidie wrote: »

So I've now finished this programme since my gym membership expired and I don't plan on going back to the gym until the new year as I'm getting married and moving house etc.


1A. Lateral Pulldown-48kg, 4 sets of 15.
1B. Machine- 45kg, 4 sets of 15.

Vertical leg crunch- 4 sets of 25.
Side Bridge - 4 sets of 30 secs per side.

2A. Dumbbell Bent Over Row- 40lbs, 4 sets of 15.
2B. Alternate Arm Dumbbell Press - 20lbs, 4 sets of 15.

Bicycle Crunches- 4 sets of 25.
Torso rotation with 8kg medicine ball- 4 sets of 25.

3A. Bicep Curl- 35lbs, 4 sets of 10.
3B. Tricep Cable Press Down - 18kg, 4 sets of 10.

Ab exercise (don't know name)- 4 sets of 25.
Hip Thrusters - 4 sets of 20.

Cardio- Treadmill- 6km.

I was also doing some running on non-gym days and football on Wednesdays. 7 months ago when I joined the gym I was about 75-76KG. I am now about 65KG so very happy with my progress. I have also put on some muscle, not as much as I thought I would but happy enough. You can now just about see the outline of my abs.

I'm looking for some advice on what I can do at home until the new year in regards to weights, bodyweight exercises etc. I have dumbbells but no bench and I'm happy to continue my running. What kind of programme should I go for? I would like those abs to show through properly so I'm assuming I need to lose a bit more body fat? Can't be that much though. Would also like to bulk up a small bit but I'm assuming this might be tough as I've limited weights? Would appreciate some advice please. Thanks

If you PM me your email address I can send you on two programs that I think might help you. One is Basement Beast Building and the other is Bodyweight Bodybuilding, two of Jason Feruggia's programs.

fat and slow

posted this in the daily achievement thread, might be better here. This is the first part of my off season workout.
after getting knocked out of hurling championship 6 weeks ago. I started doing a 3 day week, compound based workout.

some starting maxes; bench press; 82.5 kg squat 120 kg, dead lift 130kg. dips, 3 sets of 8.
current pbs after 7weeks. 90kg by 5 bp, squat 150 kg by 3 and dead lift 165 by 3. dips 3 sets of 8 with 15kg weight.
good improvement in all auxillary lifts. Cleans wasn't that impressive went from 80kg by 1 with bad technique, get it up anyway, to 80kg by 3 with better technique. first four weeks were spent learning technique and I decreased the weight.

principia offseason workout, I definitely recommend it.
monday and fri; squat and bench. and aux lifts ( sl. dead lift, hamstring curls, shoulder press, rows, dips)
wednesday ; clean, and deadlift, and aux lifts ( rows, hamstring curls, incline bench press,pull ups, dips)
tuesday, run intervals, thursday run tempo. Sat stretch, Sun I like this bit; church rest and pray. amen

They use the bigger faster stronger (bfs), sets and reps for compound lifts, and 3 sets of 8 or 10 for aux lifts you change it after ever cycle.
(bfs) is a four week cycle; week 1. 2sets of 5 and 3 sets of 3, week 2, 5 sets of 5, week 3 max week 5,4,3,2,1. week 4 set of 10, 8 and 6.
week 5 rest week or start cycle again straight away.

[use wayback internet machine to find principia offseason workout. not there any more]

I haven't been doing the runs in the program, but i'll start into them soon. I still had hurling league games and training which finished last week.
happy enough with gains, the first week was a shock to the system and I got delayed onset muscle soreness, around my shoulders for 3/4 days. but now the workout is getting easier. I'm not sure whether to do one more 4 week cycle of the program since the first two cycles went so well, or to switch workouts.
Injured at the minute with a dead leg, so I'm only doing upper body stuff.