Something to think about

Falthyron

First and foremost, I am not assuming to be an expert on the topic, but I would like to hear After Hours' thoughts on such a particular scenario.

Consider the case of Marie Fleming and her 'Right to die'. Obviously she sought to have her husband assist her in taking her life in Ireland, and so that he wouldn't be arrested for doing so. Should this not be permitted in Ireland, I would assume she also sought to be allowed to do it in Switzerland at a clinic and upon his return to Ireland, he would not be dragged up in front of an Irish court. This particular scenario would be similar to that of Tony Nicklinson.

So, now I come to the crux of the issue. Women in Ireland have been leaving Irish shores with a recognised 'Irish life' inside their womb to have it removed. Abortion is illegal in Ireland as our laws seek to protect the life of the unborn and in effect recognises it as a citizen of this state from the moment of conception.

Can After Hours tell me why women returning to Ireland after having such a procedure are not arrested and charged with a form of murder? If the authorities at be have the power to find out if Marie Fleming or Tony Nicklinson were given assistance with their suicides in another country, can we not find out about Irish women (resident in Ireland) who have been to abortion clinics?

I fully expect the answer to be somewhere along the lines of one of our greatest hypocrisies, but it is something to think about and question. Or is it another case of 'don't rock the boat, as long as we don't talk about it, it will be graaaand'.

(For the record, I am very much pro-choice)

I'm fairly sure they don't tell the authorities that they're going to have an abortion. It's not exactly broadcast for all to know. So without that, where are the grounds for arrest?
It's ridiculous that we force people that want or need one to leave the country to have the procedure performed, we need to allow it to be done here.

Falthyron

Sacramento wrote: »

I'm fairly sure they don't tell the authorities that they're going to have an abortion. It's not exactly broadcast for all to know. So without that, where are the grounds for arrest?

I recognise that ascertaining what happened would be difficult, but I guess I am trying to draw comparisons to the 'right to die' cases. Where by, both people who wanted to die were fighting to have their assistant immune to any prosecution after the deed is done - even if it is done in another country.

In the pregnancy case, most women (I would assume - again I am no expert) would go to a doctor and to find out if they are pregnant after doing a home-test. Doctor tells them they are pregnant and the woman considers having an abortion as an alternative option. They discuss it with the doctor and information is shared. I know the doctor-patient privileges obligation is maintained at all times, but are there exceptions to that rule when there is a risk to another human life?

I know what I am saying is very black and white (probably even very controversial), but from looking at this abortion bill and how precise it has to be so as to abide by the already existing laws, it seems exceptions are made and things are swept under the carpet. We go to such lengths in this country to preserve life with the unborn and those who wish to end their own lives. We stop people assisting in euthanasia where it is known, and follow the law blindly, yet this culture of women having abortions not far off our shores is overlooked as a matter of inconvenience?

If we are so convinced to follow our strict abortion laws, should Irish Doctors be reporting women who choose to have an abortion outside of this country and then return to it once the deed is done?

(Again, I am very pro-choice. I am simply trying to see if it is simply a case of hypocrisy, or if there is a genuine reason why this exception is allowed.)

jobeenfitz

I think the judge in the original "Marie Flemming" case recommended that this case could be treated with discretion by authority's if her husband assisted her in ending her life.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Lets say for arguments sake this man did accompany his wife to Switzerland. He would be charged on return to Ireland but not prosecuted, the charges are a formality, they'll always be dropped. This is the precedent in Ireland and Britain.

errlloyd

The Irish courts used to do this, in fact this is how the original x case happened. The parents asked the garda if they should keep dna from the fetus. The Garda informed the ag who stopped the girl leaving the country.

Then we had a referendum on the right to travel, the right to information and the right to abort. The first two passed. The third failed.

Falthyron

One other scenario that I came across:

If I murdered someone and got away with it. I.e. was never a suspect and the perpetrator was never found and brought to court. Then, two years later I mention it in passing that I did in fact murder that person, I would be brought to court and an investigation would be under way. I would only have to say it to a random person to be reported.

Now apply that context to a woman who has had an abortion. I have never heard of a woman being dragged to court for having an abortion x amount of years prior to the admission. Yet, we all know of people who have had them. Surely, if the foetus is to be considered equal in every respect of human rights, the murder of such an entity should be met with the same consequences as the murder of any Irish citizen not connected via umbilical cord.

Am I completely wrong in this assertion?

hatrickpatrick

I'm not in any way attacking the OP here, don't get me wrong, but do we really need yet another abortion thread on AH?
V_V

Falthyron

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm not in any way attacking the OP here, don't get me wrong, but do we really need yet another abortion thread on AH?
V_V

I know, and I apologise, but I am just trying to understand the correlation between acknowledged abortions in the U.K., and the lack of prosecution, versus assisted suicide in another country, and possible prosecution upon return. I know the abortion thing is everywhere, but I think this topic offers a different approach to looking at it.

wonderfulname

The 13th amendment stipulates prohibition of abortion here will not infringe on the right to travel, I would imagine the fact there is nothing similar in the case of assisted suicide would have something to do with it. Look up the particulars of the X case and you'll see there were indeed equivocal limits on women before it, or at least in theory.

errlloyd

Yeah OP as I said above, we established a specific right to it through a referendum. Think it was in 92, but you'll find all you need on the X case wiki. Sorry I'm on my phone and using the app so getting links ect is a pain.

Falthyron

wonderfulname wrote: »

The 13th amendment stipulates prohibition of abortion here will not infringe on the right to travel, I would imagine the fact there is nothing similar in the case of assisted suicide would have something to do with it. Look up the particulars of the X case and you'll see there were indeed equivocal limits on women before it, or at least in theory.

Many thanks for sharing, I wasn't aware of that. Fascinating how we deal with this issue. A classic case of 'You can do what you like, but under this roof, you follow our rules'. Interesting to see if we will adopt an amendment of a similar nature when it comes to assisted suicide. As someone above mentioned, people will be charged upon re-entry into the country, but prosecution may not take place. Or 'discretion' being the favoured approach for Gardai line of inquiries.

Caribbean Cat

As regards abortion, it is my body and it is my choice.All women know what they can do to create their own abortions should it medically be denied. That is simple, mentally perhaps not. Perhaps we should look at why women decide to abort before every "power" decides she should or should not

As regards euthanasia, again, my body my choice. Again moral issues are raised. If i were in pain and could not even look forward to going to sleep let alone facing another day...i think the individual case would have to be reviewed obviously, with no outside influences, then yes, I can decide when I can die, if I am in extreme pain and dying of an incurable disease. This is what I think as a well educated citizen of Ireland who has paid a lot of taxes and will be paying a lot more in the future.

starviewadams

Her husband has more balls/courage then the entire TD's in this country combined.

If he's imprisoned for carrying out his wifes final wish I will certainly protest.

Sorry OP, I know you're trying to put a different perspective on it, but it is essentially another abortion thread which is the last thing we need.

As wonderfulname pointed out, our laws allow travel to another country for the purposes of abortion.