Set CAB on Rome

murraykil

The Catholic Church in Ireland on Friday condemned the government’s abortion legislation, which would permit abortions in cases where a threat existed to a woman’s life, including from suicide. The church called the legislation “a dramatically and morally unacceptable change to Irish law.”

NY Times

Ireland’s bishops won’t have to pay the controversial household charge that has hit every homeowner in the pocket.

Irish Central

Almost a decade after the Irish Catholic church signed an indemnity deal for religious orders, just two thirds of the properties agreed on in the deal have been legally handed over to the State.

Irish Central

As part of governmental engagement with the congregations, a three-person panel, chaired by the man who is now chairman of the National Asset Management Agency, Frank Daly, was set up to assess the resources held by the 18 groups. The report from this panel, published in November 2009, gives a fascinating insight into the financial position of the orders and the challenges they face.
The assets declared by the 18 congregations had a total value of €3.743 billion (mostly based on valuations made for insurance reasons). The property declared did not include all the assets held by the congregations.

Irish Times

*At one point, one in every 100 rateable properties in the state was linked to the Catholic Church.

*The largest class of owners within this portfolio were individual priests rather than parish or diocesan bodies.

*20% of all Church properties were listed as houses.

*Despite selling over €667 million worth of land in the last 10 years, the 18 religious orders covered under the redress scheme retained much of their historical portfolio.

Irish Examiner

Never again can the Catholic Church be allowed to undermine Ireland's laws

Irish Independent

The facilitators of the what was probably the most widespread international paedophile ring in the history of humanity, aka, the hierarchy of Roman Catholic church still think that their opinion should be heard! :mad:

They think this because they have pretty much gotten away with all their evil deeds, which even includes modern day slavery.

Other than Enda's little telling off, the Government here, as well as Governments in other countries have done little or nothing in terms of seeking to prosecute the facilitators of this abuse.

It would be nice, if ex-pope benedict was investigated, but it's simply not going to happen; it may be the case that he covered his ass on that one anyway before retiring . . .

To date, attempts to prosecute Benedict have been stymied by his immunity as the Head of State of the Vatican City. His resignation, however, changes the game and opens up the possibility that warrants will now be issued for his arrest.

The Conversation

A letter by the Secretary of the International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State alleges Pope Benedict XVI is asking the Italian government to grant him protection and immunity from legal prosecution.

Digital Journal

Isn't time to set CAB onto the Roman Catholic church in Ireland?

If Europe followed some well deserved and long overdue justice could be served; the evil decision makers in the hierarchy could be weeded out; a smaller, humbler, (a word they love to use, but it hass rarely been seen until the new guy) Roman Catholic church could come out the other side for all those good people who make up the majority of the church.

It would also show that Ireland and Europe actually cares about it's citizens.

The assets could go a long way to solving Europes economic problems also.

Its way too late to be dealing with this

DEFTLEFTHAND

CAB deals with organised crime. The assets they seize derive (or are suspected to have derived from) direct or indirect criminal misconduct.

From a legal standpoint the CC are clean, they didn't illegally acquire their assets.

murraykil

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

CAB deals with organised crime. The assets they seize derive (or are suspected to have derived from) direct or indirect criminal misconduct.

From a legal standpoint the CC are clean, they didn't illegally acquire their assets.

They profited from slave labour and received donations from members of the public under the guise of being honest and loving spiritual leaders while at the same time facilitating the physical abuse of the children of their members.

CAB have some very good lawyers; they could make it stick if they were given the go-ahead.

Even the threat of a CAB investigation might make them pay what they have agreed to, yet still have not fully paid, despite that number being way too low; partially due to them cutting a deal while they knew the full extent of the abuse was yet to be revealed and partially due to the Government not being tough enough of them in the re-negotiating.

The threat of CAB would also serve a small reminder that they still have not even come close to making amends for what they have done.

murraykil

shaaane wrote: »

Its way too late to be dealing with this

The internet is all over the world now and people in other timezones can use it.

Sleep tight, don't let the bed-bugs bite!

DEFTLEFTHAND

murraykil wrote: »

They profited from slave labour and received donations from members of the public under the guise of being honest and loving spiritual leaders while at the same time facilitating the physical abuse of the children of their members.

CAB have some very good lawyers; they could make it stick if they were given the go-ahead.

Even the threat of a CAB investigation might make them pay what they have agreed to, yet still have not fully paid, despite that number being way too low; partially due to them cutting a deal while they knew the full extent of the abuse was yet to be revealed and partially due to the Government not being tough enough of them in the re-negotiating.

The threat of CAB would also serve a small reminder that they still have not even come close to making amends for what they have done.

There's plenty of holes in that argument though from a legal standpoint, many women asked to be put into the laundries, the Gardai can verify that, many also reported no mistreatment. When one of these women tried to speak outside of Leinster House she was shouted down.

There can be no threat of a CAB investigation so how can you threaten them with one?

Remember this was a different time in Ireland, a lot of these women had no one else to turn to, a shocking indictment of Ireland but you can't apply does circumstances to a modern setting. Where I do agree with you is that the women should be compensated for their labour by the church and not the State.

kneemos

Older conservative churchgoers are a huge voting demographic,no party wants to upset that.

murraykil

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

There's plenty of holes in that argument though from a legal standpoint, many women asked to be put into the laundries, the Gardai can verify that, many also reported no mistreatment. When one of these women tried to speak outside of Leinster House she was shouted down.

There can be no threat of a CAB investigation so how can you threaten them with one?

Remember this was a different time in Ireland, a lot of these women had no one else to turn to, a shocking indictment of Ireland but you can't apply does circumstances to a modern setting. Where I do agree with you is that the women should be compensated for their labour by the church and not the State.

It's completely irrelevant that "many women asked to be put into the laundries"; many others did not. The state used the place as well so they are liable, but the laundries are just a part of the Roman Catholics churches crimes.

I cannot agree that using a priest they know is abusing kids to get parishiners to put money in the churches coffers is a crime which CAB should not or could not investigate.

The Roman Catholic church covered up the abuse, hid it, protected child abusers and continued to profit financially.

murraykil

kneemos wrote: »

Older conservative churchgoers are a huge voting demographic,no party wants to upset that.

This is sad but true.

DEFTLEFTHAND

murraykil wrote: »

It's completely irrelevant that "many women asked to be put into the laundries"; many others did not. The state used the place as well so they are liable, but the laundries are just a part of the Roman Catholics churches crimes.

I cannot agree that using a priest they know is abusing kids to get parishiners to put money in the churches coffers is a crime which CAB should not or could not investigate.

The Roman Catholic church covered up the abuse, hid it, protected child abusers and continued to profit financially.

Lets say you and I set up a racket today, we deal drugs, we extort businesses down by the quayside, we infiltrate and extort labour unions, we run a numbers racket in our community, we do hits for hire. Any income from these activities can be investigated by CAB, any assets we purchase from our illegal activities are fair game, white collar crime also.

The reason CAB came about was to deal with organised crime, the CC are not an organised group and their assets cannot be touched. They didn't illegally obtain them

murraykil

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Lets say you and I set up a racket today, we deal drugs, we extort businesses down by the quayside, we infiltrate and extort labour unions, we run a numbers racket in our community, we do hits for hire. Any income from these activities can be investigated by CAB, any assets we purchase from our illegal activities are fair game, white collar crime also.

The reason CAB came about was to deal with organised crime, the CC are not an organised group and their assets cannot be touched. They didn't illegally obtain them

The RCC are fairly feckin organised and they comitted crimes! :rolleyes:

Lets say you and I start a school for orphans. Let's say we ask people to donate money to help keep our school running and with our own living expenses like running a big house, a maid, sky tv, a bullet proof car or a golden hat; things like that. We are a bit flashy as you know, us two! Let's say you start abusing the orphans. Let's say I find out, but I don't tell so we will still get donations and I get to keep the golden hat.

Any income from these activities can be investigated by CAB, any assets we purchase from our illegal activities are fair game, white collar crime also.

DEFTLEFTHAND

murraykil wrote: »

The RCC are fairly feckin organised and they comitted crimes! :rolleyes:

Lets say you and I start a school for orphans. Let's say we ask people to donate money to help keep our school running and with our own living expenses like running a big house, a maid, sky tv, a bullet proof car or a golden hat; things like that. We are a bit flashy as you know, us two! Let's say you start abusing the orphans. Let's say I find out, but I don't tell so we will still get donations and I get to keep the golden hat.

Any income from these activities can be investigated by CAB, any assets we purchase from our illegal activities are fair game, white collar crime also.

The organisation in itself was founded on good will, the people donate to help the school run. We don't profit from it monetarily, if sexual abuse occurs it's a matter for the courts not CAB.

It's not organised crime.

murraykil

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The organisation in itself was founded on good will, the people donate to help the school run. We don't profit from it monetarily, if sexual abuse occurs it's a matter for the courts not CAB.

It's not organised crime.

ok.

murraykil

For those who may confuse CAB and the Proceeds of Crime Act with similar acts in other countries, like RICO in the USA, here is the definition of “proceeds of crime” means any property obtained or received at any time (whether before or after the passing of this Act) by or as a result of or in connection with the commission of an offence;

Norwesterner

Start a thread bashing Protestantism or Judaism and you'll be banned in a heartbeat.
I for one, am utterly fed up with the relentless sectarian attacks of the Catholic Church in Irish forums.

DEFTLEFTHAND

But they didn't profit from the donations, the money went into running the institutions, there was no proceeds from crime. Any mistreatment and sexual abuse are different criminal matters.

This state couldn't afford to look after the disadvantaged, hell we couldn't even afford to run an independent educational system, they needed the help of the Church. The majority of our current population were taught in church schools.

murraykil

Norwesterner wrote: »

Start a thread bashing Protestantism or Judaism and you'll be banned in a heartbeat.
I for one, am utterly fed up with the relentless sectarian attacks of the Catholic Church in Irish forums.

Of course the bashing of religious practice will result in bans, and rightly so.

The discussion of acts committed in the name of a religion, such as Jewish occupation of disputed territories, or acts committed by hierarchical members of a religion, such as Roman Catholic priests abusing children and bishops covering it up does not equate to bashing a religion; it's bashing behaviour of individuals who are protected by a religious organisation, and at times state instituitons.

murraykil

Catholic church returns to profit but donations down

Courier Press

Italian prosecutors have now detained the former head of the Vatican’s bank after searching his home and former office for suspected criminal behavior. Catholics and followers of the Holy See will be disappointed to learn that the Vatican’s bank appears to be embroiled in yet another financial scandal. After a number of very embarrassing episodes in recent years, the Pope pledged to comply with international standards on illicit finance and clean up the bank’s image.

Forbes

returnNull

Norwesterner wrote: »

Start a thread bashing Protestantism or Judaism and you'll be banned in a heartbeat.

not if you can back up said bashing with facts.

The CC are a bunch of dirty kunts and deserve every bit of abuse they get.I never get tired of reading it or writing it.

Norwesterner

Most Priests are honourable, selfless men.
All around the World, in some of the most desperate places Irish Priests are working away in conditions most soldiers would break under for no financial gain.
Get off your high horse, and your bashing of the many for the sins of the few.
Is paedophilia amongst Priests any greater than that of the general public as a whole?
No doubt you'll be calling out for one, when one of your family members dies in the middle of the night.

returnNull

Norwesterner wrote: »

Most Priests are honourable, selfless men.
All around the World, in some of the most desperate places Irish Priests are working away in conditions most soldiers would break under for no financial gain.
Get off your high horse, and your bashing of the many for the sins of the few.
Is paedophilia amongst Priests any greater than that of the general public as a whole?
No doubt you'll be calling out for one, when one of your family members dies in the middle of the night.

shut up.They as an organisation facilitated child abuse.From the very top down.And that was in the western world.You can only imagine the sh1te they got up to in the third world.

kneemos

returnNull wrote: »

not if you can back up said bashing with facts.

The CC are a bunch of dirty kunts and deserve every bit of abuse they get.I never get tired of reading it or writing it.

Having been dragged up as a Catholic sly and underhand would be my enduring memories.

Norwesterner

returnNull wrote: »

not if you can back up said bashing with facts.

The CC are a bunch of dirty kunts and deserve every bit of abuse they get.I never get tired of reading it or writing it.

Banal media influenced nonsense.
If I was to say all jews are greedy, money-mad, devious individuals I'd be banned for anti-semitism and sectarianism.
But this poster can call all Catholics "dirty kunts" and it's acceptable.
If you really think this....don't get married in a Catholic Church, don't get your kids baptised, confirmed or go through First communion, and don't get buried in church Grounds (buy your own plot).
Otherwise youre just a spoofer.

Norwesterner

kneemos wrote: »

Having been dragged up as a Catholic sly and underhand would be my enduring memories.

As did 95% of Irish people.
Stop being so melo-dramatic and neurotic.
My local Priests were fantastic influences in the community and well respected.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Norwesterner wrote: »

Most Priests are honourable, selfless men.
All around the World, in some of the most desperate places Irish Priests are working away in conditions most soldiers would break under for no financial gain.
Get off your high horse, and your bashing of the many for the sins of the few.
Is paedophilia amongst Priests any greater than that of the general public as a whole?
No doubt you'll be calling out for one, when one of your family members dies in the middle of the night.

That's very true but facts like these are ignored by the liberal youth. They want to tar every man and woman in the organisation with the same brush. They listen to guys like Hitchens and Dawkins and think that they know it all, I hope that none of them experience an Anton LaVey moment on their death bed.

kneemos

Norwesterner wrote: »

Banal media influenced nonsense.
If I was to say all jews are greedy, money-mad, devious individuals I'd be banned for anti-semitism and sectarianism.
But this poster can call all Catholics "dirty kunts" and it's acceptable.
If you really think this....don't get married in a Catholic Church, don't get your kids baptised, confirmed or go through First communion, and don't get buried in church Grounds (buy your own plot).
Otherwise youre just a spoofer.

There's often not an alternative.

murraykil

Norwesterner wrote: »

Banal media influenced nonsense.
If I was to say all jews are greedy, money-mad, devious individuals I'd be banned for anti-semitism and sectarianism.
But this poster can call all Catholics "dirty kunts" and it's acceptable.
If you really think this....don't get married in a Catholic Church, don't get your kids baptised, confirmed or go through First communion, and don't get buried in church Grounds (buy your own plot).
Otherwise youre just a spoofer.

You really want to bring church burial grounds into it?

Limbo babies

Norwesterner

returnNull wrote: »

shut up.They as an organisation facilitated child abuse.From the very top down.And that was in the western world.You can only imagine the sh1te they got up to in the third world.

They are still in the Third World.
Many spend their dying days and are buried over there.
Meanwhile you are just some Kevin the Teenager type character behind a laptop in some leafy suburb.
But you think they're ALL paedos irregardless of natural course of justice due to a few bad apples.
Do you think Graham Norton and Jeremy Paxman are also paedos due to some BBC names being paedos?

Norwesterner

kneemos wrote: »

There's often not an alternative.

Of course there is. Are you saying they've some grip over you?

kneemos

Norwesterner wrote: »

As did 95% of Irish people.
Stop being so melo-dramatic and neurotic.
My local Priests were fantastic influences in the community and well respected.

My local priests were well respected and influential and if you were a good Catholic and towed the line all was fine,if you questioned their authority or teachings you would see the ugly side.I'd appreciate it if you'd respect my opinions.

kneemos

Norwesterner wrote: »

Of course there is. Are you saying they've some grip over you?

If all the schools are Catholic,if the only local graveyard is in church grounds or if you're partner wants a church wedding you would bite the bullet.

tallaghtmick

Catholic church threads are as boring as mass.As usual everyone will hide behind a keyboard and not actually do anything about it.

murraykil

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Catholic church threads are as boring as mass.As usual everyone will hide behind a keyboard and not actually do anything about it.

Such is life. And it's After Hours!

DEFTLEFTHAND

kneemos wrote: »

If all the schools are Catholic,if the only local graveyard is in church grounds or if you're partner wants a church wedding you would bite the bullet.

That's the State's fault not the Churches. In Modern Ireland You can marry without church involvement, you can send your kid to an educate together school and you can be buried in unconsecrated ground.

kneemos

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

That's the State's fault not the Churches. In Modern Ireland You can marry without church involvement, you can send your kid to an educate together school and you can be buried in unconsecrated ground.

If you both agree to it,on the slim chance you live near a school and can get in and if there's a council run graveyard nearby.The church effectively ran the state for many decades and are still going with their old method of do as we say or we'll punish you with their threats to TD's.

DEFTLEFTHAND

kneemos wrote: »

If you both agree to it,on the slim chance you live near a school and can get in and if there's a council run graveyard nearby.The church effectively ran the state for many decades and are still going with their old method of do as we say or we'll punish you with their threats to TD's.

They did not threaten TD's, Cardinal Daly stated that 'there would be a great reluctance to politicise the Eucharist.' That thread yesterday was not opened on factual grounds in relation to Ireland, it was alluding to vague American reports.

murraykil

kneemos wrote: »

If you both agree to it,on the slim chance you live near a school and can get in and if there's a council run graveyard nearby.The church effectively ran the state for many decades and are still going with their old method of do as we say or we'll punish you with their threats to TD's.

Archbishop Raymond L. Burke of St. Louis said he would refuse Kerry Communion if the senator came to his diocese. As bishop of La Crosse, Wis., the archbishop had already done that with three local Catholic politicians who supported legalized abortion.

OurSundayVisitor

It's happend in the USA, but the guy yesterday pretty much said they would not want to do the same in Ireland; but they are trying to force their will on the legislature.

Grayson

Despite the fact that i agree with the OP, I have to say I've very tempted to return to the catholic fold just because of his unwarranted use of large type.

Micky Dolenz

Already a thread on the subject.

I too am tiring of the constant church bashing. It's old, very very old.