atheism. what does it stand for? Biscuits, it seems!

Kidchameleon

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2010/08/atheist-bus_1217544c.jpg

nozzferrahhtoo

You are really floundering here son. Withdrawing the claim would have at least lent you some credibility instead of just digging the hole further. Let us dissect this car crash a little:

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I don't get why somebody isn't bothered to do a simple search?

A few reasons. Firstly it is your claim so the onus is on you to substantiate it. Not us. Especially when the claim is so vague and empty and poorly defined.

Further you have entered a forum where many of us are all too used to being told "There is plenty of evidence, just go find it yourself" on many topics, especially the actual existence of god. There comes a time where you just stop falling for that little canard.

Also you have not even defined what we are to be searching for example. What words would you suggest typing into which fields of the search utility here exactly?

Kidchameleon wrote: »

"on this very forum".... "on this forum alone"

This "very forum" is the worst place to go to support your claim. This is a forum FOR atheists. If a theist, or someone defending theists, comes in here then the result is not supporting your claim that "there are many atheists that don't leave people to their religion". They come in asking for it. _They_ are coming to _us_ and as such this is entirely inadmissible to support your spew.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Have a look on After Hours, there is daily religion bashing.

Again I do not think this supports your claims. Boards.ie is a debate forum. People take sides, discuss and defend them. That is _the whole point of a debate and discussion forum_.

This makes a nonsense of your claim entirely. It is not that atheists on these fora refuse to leave theists to their religion. It is that PEOPLE on these fora refuse to leave ANYONE to ANY subject. Nor should they. I repeat: It is the entire point of having a discussion forum.

If this displeases you then perhaps the word press site is more to your liking where people soap box what is on their mind with little or no interaction or debate between them. A debate forum environment simply is not constructed with people of your delicate disposition in mind.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

In the real world you have famous atheists at it, and plenty of civilians.

This is where what you are actually claiming gets vague and non-sensical. Earlier in the thread you also cited the name Richard Dawkins. (Though I must point out citing one SINGLE person hardly supports any claim starting with "Many Atheists").

There are many people who espouse Atheist Standpoints yes. No one would deny that. But exactly what do you mean by "don't leave people to their religion"?

Writing books on the subject or giving talks is not failing to "leave people to their religion". No one is forcing them into the lecture hall. No one is compelling them to buy the books. No one is forcing anything on anyone here. They are expressing their opinions and only those who want to hear them have to listen.

There are close to nothing in the way of atheists cold callers.... door to door salesmen.... Stands and Stalls being set up in streets stopping people to preach atheists standpoints....

Nor are any atheists I am currently aware of trying to take faith away from people or force them to stop having it. Rather they are just fighting to make sure faith is espoused and applied in the right places (i.e. not in our halls of power, education, science and so forth).

The way you are phrasing it.... be it your intention or not.... you seem to be imagining a world where atheists are marching across the world trying to force people to stop being religious or stop them having faith..... or seeking out religion people in order to accost them and abuse them.

So as I said... at this point you would either do well to take the advice of retracting your claim.... or work on clarifying what exactly it is you are saying and what your substantiation for that is.

Kidchameleon

Duggy747 wrote: »

Usually, when one says "facts" they have something substantial to reinforce the use of that word.

Should I prove the sky is blue? We all know it is. Should I prove atheists hassle people about their religion? We all know they do. I have personally been mistaken for a religious person on this very forum and received hassle for it but I do get the point that if your religious you should expect to receive a bit of hassle here.

Obliq

Kidchameleon wrote: »

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2010/08/atheist-bus_1217544c.jpg

A picture of an athiest BUS?!! Oh boy. What do they do, pull up at a bus stop disguised as the 36a, pick up the queue, lock the doors and play Dawkins' and Hitchens' speeches until they sign up as atheists? Love your proof kid :pac:

Kidchameleon

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

This "very forum" is the worst place to go to support your claim. This is a forum FOR atheists. If a theist, or someone defending theists, comes in here then the result is not supporting your claim that "there are many atheists that don't leave people to their religion". They come in asking for it. _They_ are coming to _us_ and as such this is entirely inadmissible to support your spew.

I understand what your saying. But a theist should be able to have a rational discussion here without having to put up with slagging.

Kidchameleon

Obliq wrote: »

A picture of an athiest BUS?!! Oh boy. What do they do, pull up at a bus stop disguised as the 36a, pick up the queue, lock the doors and play Dawkins' and Hitchens' speeches until they sign up as atheists? Love your proof kid :pac:

That bus (and a few more) spent about two months doing the rounds in England. Publicity stunt no doubt to sell a few more books but certainly ramming ideals into people. Told ya there would be a circus if I put any evidence up.

nozzferrahhtoo

Kidchameleon wrote: »

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2010/08/atheist-bus_1217544c.jpg

This just gets worse. How exactly is that "Not leaving people to their religion"? And how does it support your claim starting with "Many Atheists"? It does neither.

This is the work of one single person. Hardly "Many Atheists". So fail there from the outset.

Secondly this is not attacking people of faith. Rather it is addressed at people suffering from worry about the after life and god(s). It is saying to them "Look, if you find yourself worried about all this, take comfort and solace in the fact that the idea there is a god is entirely substantiated and you are worried over nothing".

Which I think is a useful message to put out there in a world where there are many MANY posters up telling people they risk hell for unbelief or that their loved ones might be destined for an eternity of torture or some other horrific discomfort.

People have enough to be concerned with in the real world without people piling on imagined concerns to stress them out further. I think it highly useful to inform such people that they are stressed out over nothing.

nozzferrahhtoo

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I understand what your saying. But a theist should be able to have a rational discussion here without having to put up with slagging.

That depends what they have to offer. Let us not pretend the OP was not a troll in THIS thread for example. It is clear it came in here with no other intention other than to stir up animosity and flame wars.

I think it is a credit to the posters here that they did not react with anger and vitriol and insults, but instead turned the thread into a good natured joke fest and discussion about biscuits.

The troll started throwing around non-sequiturs and emotive words like "cult" when it realised it was failing to get a reaction.... but this still failed. Credit to the posters here!

Bring a theist in here who is willing to lay out their case in a reasoned, polite and intellectual manner and you will find the posters here will in the vast majority reply in a reasoned, polite and intellectual manner in return.

Are there one or two emotive bad apples here who will spew out vitriol that lets us all down? Hell yes. There is. But they are few and certainly even if you counted them, added a 0 to the end of the result, you still would not have anything near enough to support your "Many Atheists" claim.

Duggy747

Should I prove atheists hassle people about their religion?

Generally, when you say something like that about a particular group of people then, yes, you're expected to show some examples.

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I'm not having a go at anyone, just stating the facts.

You're stating your opinion which is that "there are many atheists that don't leave people to their religion". And you're being asked to substantiate your opinion with facts. If you can't, then people are quite correct to infer that your opinion is worthless.

A very gentle, mildly humorous, ad which appeared in pink letters on the side of a few buses in the UK a few years back is a start, even if it doesn't back up your opinion. What I think what people really expect here is solid, reliable evidence of non-religious people or anti-religious people intruding their beliefs about religion in the same fashion, and to the same degree, as religious people do.

A good example would be if you could find, say, something like a few hundred or even a few thousand schools in the country, schools which are controlled by anti-religious groups and which discuss religion and religious people in the same hysterical terms that religious people discuss atheists in school. That would certainly do the trick.

If you can't produce any evidence for your opinion, then as I said above, people are quite right to infer that your opinion is just the latest gust in the never-ending wind of anti-atheist/agnostic hot air.

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

[...] certainly ramming ideals into people [...]

Large, friendly pink letters saying "there's no god" and that people should go out and enjoy life is "ramming" things into people?

Really?

I'd include a GIF of somebody splitting themselves laughing here, only I think all the best ones have been used here in A+A recently

Delirium

Kidchameleon wrote: »

That bus (and a few more) spent about two months doing the rounds in England. Publicity stunt no doubt to sell a few more books but certainly ramming ideals into people. Told ya there would be a circus if I put any evidence up.

Are you equally upset about L'oreal, McDonalds, Volvic, GoCompare, SkyTV, Vodafone, Easons, Bob's Corner shop etc. "ramming ideals" into people?

That bus isn't an example of ramming ideals into people. At most, it would engage the person on the street to possibly think about God/god(s) not existing. It's not parking outside someones door and then dragging the occupants of the house onto the bus to be conditioned to reject religion.

There may be actual worthwhile examples of what you're complaining about but posting that image has done yourself a huge disservice.

Kidchameleon

robindch wrote: »

You're stating your opinion which is that "there are many atheists that don't leave people to their religion". And you're being asked to substantiate your opinion with facts. If you can't, then people are quite correct to infer that your opinion is worthless.

A very gentle, mildly humorous, ad which appeared in pink letters on the side of a few buses in the UK a few years back is a start, even if it doesn't back up your opinion. What I think what people really expect here is solid, reliable evidence of non-religious people or anti-religious people intruding their beliefs about religion in the same fashion, and to the same degree, as religious people do.

A good example would be if you could find, say, something like a few hundred or even a few thousand schools in the country, schools which are controlled by anti-religious groups and which discuss religion and religious people in the same hysterical terms that religious people discuss atheists in school. That would certainly do the trick.

If you can't produce any evidence for your opinion, then as I said above, people are quite right to infer that your opinion is just the latest gust in the never-ending wind of anti-atheist/agnostic hot air.

Ok can I ask you a simple question rob. Do many atheists mock religious people for their beliefs?

coolhull

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Should I prove the sky is blue? We all know it is. Should I prove atheists hassle people about their religion? We all know they do. I have personally been mistaken for a religious person on this very forum and received hassle for it but I do get the point that if your religious you should expect to receive a bit of hassle here.

Thank you, but there is no need to clarify that the sky is blue, its something we are all aware of.

Should you prove that atheists hassle people about their religion? Yes, we think you should. Simply stating that "we all know they do" is unlikely to stand up in a court of law.
Apart from a silly,humorous picture, you have yet to provide any instance of atheists foisting their non-beliefs on anyone.
Now I suggest that we all get back to the much important subject of biscuits.

Mmmhhh, biscuits!!

Kidchameleon

coolhull wrote: »

Thank you, but there is no need to clarify that the sky is blue, its something we are all aware of.

Should you prove that atheists hassle people about their religion? Yes, we think you should. Simply stating that "we all know they do" is unlikely to stand up in a court of law.
Apart from a silly,humorous picture, you have yet to provide any instance of atheists foisting their non-beliefs on anyone.
Now I suggest that we all get back to the much important subject of biscuits.

Mmmhhh, biscuits!!

Were all equally aware that religious people get mocked for their beliefs. A poster here has said if a religious person comes to A&A they should expect to get mocked. Its a few posts up...

Obliq

Mmmm, biscuit time! (since only robin has been asked by kid to answer, although I'd give the answer a shot...)

Which do people think is the best all round biscuit company in Ireland? I'm going for fox's because they do crunch-creams AND party rings plus many other yum cream filled ones...

Kidchameleon

koth wrote: »

but posting that image has done yourself a huge disservice.

Any evidence I give will get torn apart. I'm not gonna waste my time p*ssing against the wind.

Obliq

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Any evidence I give will get torn apart. I'm not gonna waste my time p*ssing against the wind.

Y'know this would be a relatively interesting argument, if you'd only present an interesting argument.

coffee_cake

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Ok can I ask you a simple question rob. Do many atheists mock religious people for their beliefs?

You were the one claiming they do. Are you dropping this now and asking him if it's true?

PlainP

Just after receiving a leaflet in my door (from an post). Its a one off special event in Croker hosted by Bishop Julio.
It goes on to tell me if life has beaten me down I should go to this "talk" and maybe I can believe in myself again.

Now I have never in my life (I'd be old enough) received leaflets from any atheist organisation asking me to join them or become part of their organisation.

Delirium

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Any evidence I give will get torn apart. I'm not gonna waste my time p*ssing against the wind.

That's your perogative, but I'd have to question why you're posting the claims you are then. It just has the sum effect of "making the natives restless". It's not exactly conducive to a discussion about your claims.

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Ok can I ask you a simple question rob. Do many atheists mock religious people for their beliefs?

Yes, some atheists do and a lot don't. So far as I'm aware, the vast majority of mocking that goes on is done here in A+A and similar places where religious people tend not to go. Most atheists believe that openly mocking, insulting, demeaning or misrepresenting somebody's beliefs about religion in public is tasteless and there's certainly nobody I know who'll do any of those things to religious people if they weren't first provoked into doing so by some religious person first doing it to them.

However, your claim is different. You said that "there are many atheists that don't leave people to their religion".

And it would be good to see some evidence that this is true -- like what led you to this belief? At the moment, you're still just posting unsubstantiated opinion and you appear to be unhappy that you're being called out on it.

nozzferrahhtoo

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Ok can I ask you a simple question rob. Do many atheists mock religious people for their beliefs?

There are some but you are throwing around that word "many" again without qualifying what you mean. Do you mean "many" as in a % of them? If so what %?

Or do you mean "many" as in 1000 or 10000? To you that might be a lot of people but globally actually as a % is quite small.

All the atheists I know and have worked with and met.... no small number given my work with AI and AAI.... do not do so. "Many" mock the actual beliefs however.... no the people who hold them.

There is an important distinction between respecting people and respecting beliefs. It is perfectly possible to attack the latter while respecting the former. Ah distinction which, alas, theists would rather bury and ignore.

Also this is quite a different claim to the original one you have so embarrassingly been called on.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

A poster here has said if a religious person comes to A&A they should expect to get mocked.

Which post was this? It certainly was not my one(s).

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Any evidence I give will get torn apart. I'm not gonna waste my time p*ssing against the wind.

Ah so you have now moved from "there is evidence but you have to find it yourself" to a cop out excuse for why you do not want to give any evidence.

Same ole same ole it seems. You claim not to be theist but you do seem to engage in discourse using the exact same moves they do.

swampgas

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Ok can I ask you a simple question rob. Do many atheists mock religious people for their beliefs?

Not aimed at me, but anyway.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but is the issue that you feel protective of religious people when their beliefs are being questioned?

Religious beliefs can appear so incredible and illogical to some atheists (me included, and I'm an ex-beleiver) that they often criticise it in a very robust and satirical fashion. This can be quite unsettling for believers, many are insecure in their faith and find any direct challenge to their beliefs to be quite stressful.

As such, you might consider the "Atheist Bus" to be a bad idea, in the same way that running ads on childrens' TV saying "Santa isn't real!" might be considered a bad idea - it's not that the message isn't true, but simply that you think certain people need to be protected from the truth.

But really, are grown adults really so delicate? Surely they can handle a gentle questioning of their faith (like the Atheist Bus poster) without claiming that they are having atheism "shoved down their throats"?

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Any evidence I give will get torn apart.

You could try producing some.

achtungbarry

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Any evidence I give will get torn apart. I'm not gonna waste my time p*ssing against the wind.

But the only evidence you have presented to us one picture of an advert on the side of a bus.

To back uo the claims you made, I was thinking more about examples of how groups of atheists knock on doors to try de-convert people, how they make sure their worldview is taught as absolute truth in schools, how atheists turn kids away from schools for being religious, how they want to enshrine their beliefs in legislation, how they want to deny rights to people whose sexuality goes against their atheistic worldview etc etc.....

Because that sort of thing definitely would constitute pushing your beliefs on people.

Adverts on a bus...... not so much.

Biscuits.

endacl

Biscuit anyone? It is coffee time? Had a busy morning mocking people*. I could murder a brew.






*not necessarily theists. Does not constitute evidence.

Obliq

*eating biscuits now* - crumbs all over keyboard fail :P

endacl

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Ok can I ask you a simple question rob. Do many atheists mock religious people for their beliefs?

Prove you're religious and I'll answer.

oldrnwisr

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Ok can I ask you a simple question rob. Do many atheists mock religious people for their beliefs?

OK, here's the thing that puzzles me. Not your unwillingness to support your claim with evidence but the claim itself. It seems to me is that your basic argument is that religion is harmless so there should be no reason to mock religious beliefs and that we atheists are just being mean-spirited cruel sonsabitches by ridiculing religion.

First off, you seem to be making the same mistake that a lot of other posters make when they come in here, mocking religious beliefs is not the same as mocking the person who holds them. In fact playing the man and not the ball is prohibited by the charter, so if you do see instances of this you should report it instead of filling up thread pages whinging about it.

Secondly, you now seem to be taking the tone that all religious beliefs should be immune from mockery. Has something changed? After all it wasn't so long ago that you posted:

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Pedophilia is deserving of ridicule, it harms people. Catholicism is deserving of ridicule, it harms people. Christianity is harmless so please don't ridicule it.

Now despite multiple posters (including myself) showing you that Christianity is not harmless, here you are, back here, going down the same road.

So, forget about supporting your claim. Let's say, hypothetically, that you can support your claim. What's your point? Why should religion be left alone? It's core teachings (depending on the religion) can and have been responsible for some serious harm and injustice in the world. Why should we not highlight this? For example, there are quite a few posters on boards who have come on here to defend prohibitions on gay marriage because of a cherry-picked rule in a set of borrowed laws written by bronze-age ignorant sand-dwellers. Why should we be restrained in calling bull**** on such views?