To start my own business or not...

Peterdalkey

IT people should be legally barred from messing with anything to do with website design, social media and customers. They are backend operators and should just deal with the data. They know nothing about design, marketing or communications and are the reason that most larger companies make a complete mess of their online presence .... They think it is their area because computers are used... If that logic were true, they would be responsible for all finance, admin etc etc functions,

OP social media is great for lots of businesses especially local or B2C but is generally a waste of space for B2B sellers, stick to the former and you will find a ready market crying out for low cost solutions and knowledge... Most businesses are in desperate need of more custom and sales to survive. The tough bit will be getting off your ass and knocking on the doors selling your service. Do that and you will have a busy fulfilling and rewarding summer..

Cheers

Peter

Atomico

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Actually the market research I did was all about the impact of marketing and brand awareness. So low and behold I do know a lot about brand awareness.

What you seem to miss is brand awareness is an issue that most small businesses don't really get a benefit from. It is generally the preserve of larger companies. There is an element of it on a smaller scale but it does not scale well.

You don't know anything about it, sorry! Brand awareness is 'brand' + 'awareness', very simple. Are you saying that Jane's hairdressers which has just opened up doesn't need local residents becoming aware of her new business? That's madness.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I do take a simple approach to marketing. It either increases revenue or it doesn't.

Would you say the only function of marketing is to increase revenue?!

Ray Palmer wrote: »

As I have said it depends on your target market and social media marketing only works for certain market sections. I understand social media for what it is the same as a web presence. Maintain it or don't use it. This is huge problem as the customer is only going to be shown how to do it.

It does depend on the target market and it works better for some market sectors than others, that is for sure. There are very few businesses which can't benefit from it though, and also you haven't mentioned the fact that different channels work better for certain sectors than others!

Ray Palmer wrote: »

As for the company I was working for not getting revenue from their campaign this was a big deal. I spent months working on a product specifically for social-media customers. The didn't get sales and the ages of people connecting was pretty far away from the target customers. This is after a marketing company telling us how it would all work. I did reports on who was connecting and sales. An analytical approach to see if it was working. It didn't pint blank.

This is mildly infuriating - why as an IT guy who has some market research experience, would you be working on social media for a critical project?

The fact that the people connecting were far from the target market just goes to show that the approach was deeply flawed, and it's no wonder it failed! One of the big advantages of online marketing over traditional media is the ability to target your market really precisely. Did you look at Facebook ads for example, where you can target really specifically?

Ray Palmer wrote: »

One of the benefits touted was being able to analysis customers due to information gathered. If it only small section use such media it isn't much use. If those people don't buy the service and we hope brand awareness will means years to come they will buy that isn't very effective. I have heard a lot of marketing speil in my life that sounds like religion. Quantifiable results are blooding important when shelling out money. Market research quantifies marketing. Good example is the creature comfort ads, people loved the ads and they were massively popular but market research showed people thought they were for gas and not electricity. Marketing fail.

Correct re quantifiable results, which can be achieved when you know what you are doing and you have someone with years of experience in the field!!

Don't intend to be harsh but it's a bit frustrating when you could have had someone with great experience and a track record working on that project, win-win for all parties when results could have been achieved I am sure.

Great thread!

I'm launching a new product soon and was investigating hiring a social media company. Its skin care so I was looking at companies specialising in that.
So I found one of the more experienced ones and they were charging 6K month for ongoing service. With the margins Im getting as exclusive distributor I worked out I would have to sell 667 units a month to justify the cost.

So while its a branding exercise launching a new product and getting it seen by as many people as possible, the cost needs to be justified, and I need to be seeing such an investment generate X amount of income. I figure I could track a lot of orders through blogs, facebook analytics and so on and get a rough idea of what the ROI was for my investment, albeit some of it monetary and some of it brand awareness.
I asked the company the question about revenue, hoping to get back some numbers on viewer numbers and so on, so I should be roughly able to calculate the cost of acquiring a customer, factor in the whole brand awareness thing and decide whether to go for it or not.
They never replied.

So my advice OP is if your going to do this, you need to be able to talk to the businesses your approaching about numbers. If your gona charge a shop 100 euro a month to handle it for them sell it to them via the numbers. Advertising is about the cost of acquiring a customer in my view, and facebook and twitter are basically a form of advertising.
If you can say your 100 euro is going to get you viewed by 1000 people a month, 20 of which are going to purchase something from you, in this business owners mind it would justify the cost. Now I know you cant say that with any degree of certainty until you build up some stats, but you dont have to guarantee anything, and a good pitch should win the customer.

Personally I think there are better ideas for a new business because there is a lot of competition out there, and Ray may be right it might just not work. But if it doesnt its not the end of the world at all. Probably it will be your sales skills that will be the difference between it working or not.

Hanley

How long is a piece of string Q alert, buuuut what's a reasonable price to be quoted for this sorta thing?!

Lots of factors I know, but any standard costing models?

Lyn256

Social media is an effective tactical marketing tool. If a business has a particular target market in mind, they can very effectively use social media to target that particular market.
No tool is completely effective. But if the target market of a business is a market that engages in social media-then its a great tool.
Think about leaflets drops or local advertising (the mainstay of many small businesses) - social media can be a far more effective way of getting in front of your desired target market.
Some businesses do digital marketing well, some don't-same as any form of marketing.

If you can show a small business that investing . . .say €250 with you and that will bring them €1000-€2500-€5000 in extra business-well its a bit of a no-brainer!!

So many small businesses just don;t get it-its not just about putting up a facebook page and getting 'likes' but creating content that engages your audience, capture their information and send them relevant offers/services/enticements to spend money with them!

Brush up on your sales skills and remember that when you're selling your service that its not about you but them and what you can offer them

Hope that helps

Ray Palmer

Peterdalkey wrote: »

IT people should be legally barred from messing with anything to do with website design, social media and customers. They are backend operators and should just deal with the data. They know nothing about design, marketing or communications and are the reason that most larger companies make a complete mess of their online presence .... They think it is their area because computers are used... If that logic were true, they would be responsible for all finance, admin etc etc functions,

Most idiotic ill informed comment I have read in a long time. It shows a complete lack of understanding of an entire sector. It doesn't sound like you have any experience on the subject.

I can assure you I know a lot about design. You assume once somebody works in IT they are all developers. I have done design courses and spent a couple of years working on UI. I have spent years working with customers.

Most large companies would actually use a marketing department so the on-line presence is managed by them . If they don't have a marketing department they hire a company. So the mess has nothing to do with the developer. The whole thing is devised by marketing. They determine the design mostly and you learn pretty quickly they don't listen so you deliver what they want rather than what they need.

As for design only the very big companies hire graphic designers for their products so the majority of things are actually designed by a group of people. Made up of sales, project manager, testers and developers etc... Then there is the UAT testing. This very site is IT developed.

Ray Palmer

Atomico wrote: »

Don't intend to be harsh but it's a bit frustrating when you could have had someone with great experience and a track record working on that project, win-win for all parties when results could have been achieved I am sure.

I had typed out a bigger response but it went walkies.

A new shop does need to become known. What is more effective flyers or social media? Which is cheaper considering an external consultant has to be used for one?

Marketing is about increasing revenue, the exception would be health warnings and government type information. For a business it is revenue and it all boils down to that. Brand awareness is to increase revenue or retain it. No point in customers liking the product but not buying it.

I was on the project working on the product, I needed to be informed of the planned marketing and the result. That is why I had the information. I did not design nor determine the marketing strategy. A marketing company was, one specialising in social media.

We heard all the talk about how it could be targeted and how the product would sell. Estimates of 40,000 sales etc... 143 sales was the result. The figures were pretty conclusive our target audience of 55+ were not being hit. They simply don't spend enough time on line nor on social media sites.

So a large well known company with a marketing company and a large budget didn't make money using social media. The project came from management because they heard the buzz of social media as the way forward. The believed the marketing company and hired them. I had nothing to do with the design of this campaign.

Your claim is that it didn't work because of me and others in the IT department. We had no say and delivered what they wanted. It was either the marketing company or the medium. You seem to think it was the companies fault but they have years of experience. Maybe it was their fault and the medium was fine but I think it was the medium as it simply only reaches a select audience. Having been around when the dot com bubble burst I think it is clear that the importance is overrate and I have direct experience showing that.

JD Dublin

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Most idiotic ill informed comment I have read in a long time. It shows a complete lack of understanding of an entire sector. It doesn't sound like you have any experience on the subject.

I can assure you I know a lot about design. You assume once somebody works in IT they are all developers. I have done design courses and spent a couple of years working on UI. I have spent years working with customers.

Most large companies would actually use a marketing department so the on-line presence is managed by them . If they don't have a marketing department they hire a company. So the mess has nothing to do with the developer. The whole thing is devised by marketing. They determine the design mostly and you learn pretty quickly they don't listen so you deliver what they want rather than what they need.

As for design only the very big companies hire graphic designers for their products so the majority of things are actually designed by a group of people. Made up of sales, project manager, testers and developers etc... Then there is the UAT testing. This very site is IT developed.

Actually Ray it is a comment from an experienced businessperson who has ( probably ) handled the dirty end of the stick when it comes to paying for these sort of activities.

If in doubt about Peter Dalkey's bona fides then a little digging on this website will show you he knows what he talking about. You'll also see he calls a spade a spade - sometimes to the annoyance of the shovellers out there.

The point about all of this is that someone who knows F all about the workings of a computer can be great at social media i.e. marketing, and vice versa. All the IT experience and qualifications in the world won't make up for that. Just like architects, some can't draw for nuts, yet can visualise the greatest buildings in the world. They may not have any formal qualifications etc but can produce great design.

OP your idea is great, if you want to PM me I have a business and am looking for this service exactly. You may not retire on what I pay you, but you will have income for as long as you can do a job on social media for me.

QUOTE So a large well known company with a marketing company and a large budget didn't make money using social media. The project came from management because they heard the buzz of social media as the way forward. The believed the marketing company and hired them. I had nothing to do with the design of this campaign.

QUOTE Your claim is that it didn't work because of me and others in the IT department. We had no say and delivered what they wanted. It was either the marketing company or the medium. You seem to think it was the companies fault but they have years of experience. Maybe it was their fault and the medium was fine but I think it was the medium as it simply only reaches a select audience. Having been around when the dot com bubble burst I think it is clear that the importance is overrate and I have direct experience showing that.END QUOTE

Now you are getting to some kernel of truth and you are correct - social media does not work for all consumers. Some of the posters here are of the belief it seems that Social Media is the solution to the world's ills - it isn't, but it can be part of the marketing effort. Ray as you point out it is not for every segment of the market.

Atomico

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I had typed out a bigger response but it went walkies.

A new shop does need to become known. What is more effective flyers or social media? Which is cheaper considering an external consultant has to be used for one?

Marketing is about increasing revenue, the exception would be health warnings and government type information. For a business it is revenue and it all boils down to that. Brand awareness is to increase revenue or retain it. No point in customers liking the product but not buying it.

I was on the project working on the product, I needed to be informed of the planned marketing and the result. That is why I had the information. I did not design nor determine the marketing strategy. A marketing company was, one specialising in social media.

We heard all the talk about how it could be targeted and how the product would sell. Estimates of 40,000 sales etc... 143 sales was the result. The figures were pretty conclusive our target audience of 55+ were not being hit. They simply don't spend enough time on line nor on social media sites.

So a large well known company with a marketing company and a large budget didn't make money using social media. The project came from management because they heard the buzz of social media as the way forward. The believed the marketing company and hired them. I had nothing to do with the design of this campaign.

Your claim is that it didn't work because of me and others in the IT department. We had no say and delivered what they wanted. It was either the marketing company or the medium. You seem to think it was the companies fault but they have years of experience. Maybe it was their fault and the medium was fine but I think it was the medium as it simply only reaches a select audience. Having been around when the dot com bubble burst I think it is clear that the importance is overrate and I have direct experience showing that.

If this product was aimed at over 55 year olds, and the sole or main approach to reaching them was social media, then it sounds like both the company you work for AND the marketing company were fairly clueless.

That age group do not spend as much time online as younger demographics, and as with all marketing strategies, a multi-pronged approach is required. It's not like you can launch a social media campaign, sit back and wait for the orders to roll in.

Also, you are still looking at this from the point of view of social media > revenue, which as I said is not the case. It is more an indirect driver of revenue.

Why, for example, did your company not look at online advertising instead, e.g. Google AdWords? Or search engine optimisation?

If you use one method of targeting a particular market / demographic, then you are putting all your eggs in one basket. So you can't be hugely surprised if the strategy then flops.

Ray Palmer

JD Dublin wrote: »

Now you are getting to some kernel of truth and you are correct - social media does not work for all consumers. Some of the posters here are of the belief it seems that Social Media is the solution to the world's ills - it isn't, but it can be part of the marketing effort. Ray as you point out it is not for every segment of the market.

If you read back that has always been my point. As a stand alone service it isn't a great idea. I believe there is a business there if done right but not as proposed.

As for Peter Dalkey's comment I stand by that to make that statement it would require absence of business knowledge of what and how the IT sector works. He may know business but he doesn't know the IT industry nor how things arrive on a computer to be used.

Peterdalkey

I never knew how Jacobs got the figs into Fig Rolls. I just like them. I do not know how my iPhone ir iPad works, but I don’t need to, they are but tools of doing business and IT is just a functional tool as well. Branding, marketing, service, manufacturing etc etc are the real ways of adding value. IT is but a support function, albeit an important one, in a business, it seems to that many IT people overestimate their own importance in the overall enterprise. No wonder they are getting subbed out more and more.
You seem to have taken my comments above as a personal affront, so perhaps if the hat fits, wear it!

Ray Palmer

Atomico wrote: »

If this product was aimed at over 55 year olds, and the sole or main approach to reaching them was social media, then it sounds like both the company you work for AND the marketing company were fairly clueless.
.

What is the OP suggesting his business will be? He isn't talking about anything other than social media. All I have pointing out is that social media only works for a particular part of the market. You are agreeing with me.

Social media has it's place but as a stand alone service the value is not great and it maybe of no use for the businesses core customer. It is an axillary service and it is why I don't see it as a good business idea. It will have to show a revenue.

The idea on this service is to show people how to create and maintain their social media. As a stand alone service it doesn't have much merit and best to go through the existing ways to offer this service than set-up a business to do it. People will maintain your presence for a fee which is probably a better business model along with on-line ads and web design.

Ray Palmer

Peterdalkey wrote: »

I never knew how Jacobs got the figs into Fig Rolls. I just like them. I do not know how my iPhone ir iPad works, but I don’t need to, they are but tools of doing business and IT is just a functional tool as well. Branding, marketing, service, manufacturing etc etc are the real ways of adding value. IT is but a support function, albeit an important one, in a business, it seems to that many IT people overestimate their own importance in the overall enterprise. No wonder they are getting subbed out more and more.
You seem to have taken my comments above as a personal affront, so perhaps if the hat fits, wear it!

You are clueless on what IT is given what you said. I don't take your views personally I just know you don't know what you are talking about from what you said. It is support service in many companies. As design it is primarily done by IT people it illustrates you have no idea. Many companies are just about technology and services provided by IT. It is a multi-disciplined industry and you seem to think we are all coding monkeys.

Everywhere I have worked the head people primarily come form IT back grounds. I have worked on contract in a lot of companies and worked on many different product types. Business improvements generally come from IT departments.

Your iPhone was designed by IT people but apparently they know nothing about design.:rolleyes:

After looking at your website I don't see what you know about design. It isn't even technically right and I spotted 4 major errors.

Graham

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Your iPhone was designed by IT people but apparently they know nothing about design.:rolleyes:

Wasn't the iPhone was designed by industrial designers and electronics engineers?

Ray Palmer

Graham wrote: »

Wasn't the iPhone was designed by industrial designers and electronics engineers?

The things that made it work such as the interface and OS system were all IT. It is pretty useless thing without them. IT includes designers and engineers also, I worked on chip design for example but still consider myself IT. It is pretty ridiculous to suggest IT people know nothing about design especially considering the person who said it has a terribly designed website.

Lyn256

Give it a rest Ray . . .

Is this thread not about a motivated and entrepreneurial 19 year old who recognises that in order to make some summer cash, they need to get up off their bum and go out and offer their service to the world

When did it become about you extolling the virtues of IT over every other business function . . . .

Now any chance we can bring this back to advising the OP on what might help them succeed!!!!!!!!!!!!

Graham

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The things that made it work such as the interface and OS system were all IT.

The interface was for the most part put together by the UI/UX team, without them the OS/interface would almost certainly not be what it is today.

IT may include designers and engineers but at the same time being a designer/engineer does not make you an IT expert.

Going back to the OP's original question;

I would definitely give it a try OP, you haven't got much to loose by having a go.

smash

There are a lot of companies who offer Social Media Marketing services when creating websites. They have digital marketing departments to do it.

I don't know how any college can turn it into a full time course, the DMI have been doing it for ages and it's only 36 hours in total. Or you can do a 1 day course.

Ray Palmer

Ok back on topic.

As a stand alone service it is a hard sell.

It has a limited market and must therefore be targeted correctly to what business must be targeted. Even successfully selling it to somebody may be bad if they get nothing out of it and then start bad mouthing you. This will deprive you of who it would be successful for.

Realistically price the service as you are effectively selling training. If you want to do it as a service it is a much better idea IMHO. So many updates a month etc...

There are sites where you can offer your services I suggest using those.

Do your taxes, I would suggest sole trader and not a business and all the complication of that.

Insure you use secure passwords and make sure they are changed when you hand over.

Get what they expect in writing and get it signed by both parties.

Either do web design or partner with somebody else because it is an easier thing to sell to a business. You could easily learn how to do this yourself.

I would offer a heavily discounted or free service to the first client to show a case study of success to other potential clients.

Dress professionally if you are calling to customers. Shirt and tie!

I would have my own website too with your sales burb on it

smash

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Either do web design or partner with somebody else because it is an easier thing to sell to a business. You could easily learn how to do this yourself.

Some of the worst advice I've ever read on this forum to be honest.

GoodBridge

Hi Ellie1994, an article I read recently which I hope you find interesting although I admit it's not 100% pertinent to your post: http://socialmediatoday.com/pauldunay/1410766/new-breed-marketer-coming-get-ready. It may help a little you when you are writing your "raison d'être" though.

My own view on this as a small part-time business would be that it'll be tough, especially if you plan to go cold-calling. I assume your target market would be small businesses and most small businesses are bombarded with offers from SEO services etc. SB's are also notoriously cash-strapped and will have a crack at doing anything they think they can by themselves.

Anyway, best of luck with it!

Ray Palmer

smash wrote: »

Some of the worst advice I've ever read on this forum to be honest.

Having done it myself and managed to get work doing it I don't see how bad it could be. The only reason I don't do it now is I can make better money doing less.

People teach themselves all kind of programing everyday.

Considering some design courses are a couple of days long I see as something easily self thought.

smash

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Having done it myself and managed to get work doing it I don't see how bad it could be. The only reason I don't do it now is I can make better money doing less.

People teach themselves all kind of programing everyday.

Considering some design courses are a couple of days long I see as something easily self thought.

Anyone can get work making websites. It doesn't mean you're good at it or that you know what you're doing.

Ray Palmer

smash wrote: »

Anyone can get work making websites. It doesn't mean you're good at it or that you know what you're doing.

Who said I was good? Small businesses (the OPs target) don't need very fancy websites. If the sites are well-formed and work what do I need to know? They are still in use 3 years later so fit for purpose.

If you are an expert on web development tell us do you see the value in the OPs idea? I think it is essentially something you would want from your web site provider and unlikely to buy it on its own.

smash

Ray Palmer wrote: »

If you are an expert on web development tell us do you see the value in the OPs idea? I think it is essentially something you would want from your web site provider and unlikely to buy it on its own.

It is something you would invest in as part of an online marketing strategy. Not as a standalone product.

Atomico

Most bizarre off the rails thread ever!

OP wants to make a few shekels helping time and cash-strapped local hairdressers and shoe shops set up their Facebook and Twitter pages during the summer - more power to her. Nowhere has she mentioned she's gunning to become the next Sheryl Sandberg here.

Certainly better than sitting around all summer as a student complaining there are no jobs!

biko

Ellie1994 wrote: »

I would help businesses get onto social network sites and manage the sites until they are comfortable enough to manage it on their own.

Ok, OP has closed their account for some reason but fwiw I think it's a good idea to help small shops get a web presence and manage it for a fee.

OP, do you know anyone you can start with? A relative that need this done? If so try to do it for them for peanuts, you need to get a few projects live that you then can showcase to new customers.

Secondly look around you. Are there shops around that you can google and see if they don't have web presence. Then build an idea of how you would create it for them. Finally approach the manager with your idea and a price.

The idea really is that of someone googles them they have a page on the net with some info that will help the customer.

Start small until you have enough portfolio and experience to take on bigger fish

Peterdalkey

OP closed account, you can hardly blame them, a 19 year old novice, given some of the posts here.

Atomico

Can't blame the poor girl, hopefully if she is reading she will decide / realise for herself that taking knock-backs is inevitable if she wants to be an entrepreneur (or even just entrepreneurial).

She is to be commended for giving this a lash and I really hope she does!

robertdoyle

Hello, just to jump into the middle of your conversation, it is a great idea but you must target the right clientele. This is because 90% of people are familiar with facebook and other standard means of communication and believe that they can do it themselves (despite the fact that they often cannot). Many other businesses would have no interest. There is a lot of demand for a logo designer and web designer so if you could learn to develop websites and domains while downloading some graphic design software, the collection could really work. I am personally a strategic consultant and the benefit of a business like this is that there are very little overheads other than advertising. Check out my website, it might give you an idea for what is out there and what is needed: www.trojanconsultations.com