Irish Rail mismanagement: why do they run 4-carriage DARTs at rush hour?

hatrickpatrick

...to greystones, so that everyone on the platform at 6PM in Tara Street and Pearse has to cram into an absolutely tiny train, with even more passangers than usual because it's the last one to greystones for about 45 minutes,

while you can get a dart that's twice as long, with twice as much room on it, into town from Sandycove at 2 o clock in the afternoon when there's almost nobody on it to begin with?

Does anyone understand this ridiculous logic? I dread the dart home on Tuesday evenings because I know it'll be a cramped 4 carriager heading all the way to greystones, yet heading in to college for a 1 or 2 o clock class at a time when I'm the only one in the station, I can get on a train which is twice as long and sit in a pretty much empty carriage?

I'm sure we can all come up with examples of ridiculous mismanagement of trains and busses, but let's just start with this: Why not switch the trains? Run the long one at 6PM Southbound and the tiny one at 2 or 3PM northbound? This would inconvenience absolutely nobody on the northbound train and benefit absolutely everybody on the later southbound rush hour train.

Is there a logical explanation for this I'm missing? It seems mad that you see trains long enough to fill the platform at quiet hours, while the rush hour trains home from town are the ones which you have to run up the platform to get to because they're so small. What gives? This seems like an amazingly idiotic policy to me.

TheLB

Sending Dart carriages to a country town at rushhour is a waste of resources tbh. There is a intercity to Greystones at 17.38.

BenShermin

TheLB wrote: »

Sending Dart carriages to a country town at rushhour is a waste of resources tbh. There is a intercity to Greystones at 17.38.

And what about the 17 train stations between Connolly station and that country town?

dissed doc

BenShermin wrote: »

And what about the 17 train stations between Connolly station and that country town?

No no, you don't understand. People only want to go into the big schmoke for some shopping in the afternoon, and have plenty of schpace for the bags.

Clearly IE are trying to disencourage rail use, to stop people getting the idea of having a job and getting up in the morning.

Hilly Bill

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...to greystones, so that everyone on the platform at 6PM in Tara Street and Pearse has to cram into an absolutely tiny train, with even more passangers than usual because it's the last one to greystones for about 45 minutes,

while you can get a dart that's twice as long, with twice as much room on it, into town from Sandycove at 2 o clock in the afternoon when there's almost nobody on it to begin with?

Does anyone understand this ridiculous logic? I dread the dart home on Tuesday evenings because I know it'll be a cramped 4 carriager heading all the way to greystones, yet heading in to college for a 1 or 2 o clock class at a time when I'm the only one in the station, I can get on a train which is twice as long and sit in a pretty much empty carriage?

I'm sure we can all come up with examples of ridiculous mismanagement of trains and busses, but let's just start with this: Why not switch the trains? Run the long one at 6PM Southbound and the tiny one at 2 or 3PM northbound? This would inconvenience absolutely nobody on the northbound train and benefit absolutely everybody on the later southbound rush hour train.

Is there a logical explanation for this I'm missing? It seems mad that you see trains long enough to fill the platform at quiet hours, while the rush hour trains home from town are the ones which you have to run up the platform to get to because they're so small. What gives? This seems like an amazingly idiotic policy to me.

I think there was an answer to that given a few weeks ago i think. Cant remember what it was or by who.

mtjm

I think it's something to do with the wheels, was speaking to a driver who was waiting for a delayed train said it was something to do with the wheels, as my dart was waiting didn't have time to find out the full answer (he was waiting for commuter train btw before anyone asks)

davidlacey

cost saving! why run a 6 or 8 car set when you can pack everyone in like sardines into 4?

miller50841

I have never seen more on a dart compared to how the LUAS does be with stinky arm pits in your face.

If the demand is there they will match with supply.
1 good idea would be to take out seats and put along the side so there would be more standing space.

Jamie2k9

Was all excited when I read the first 3 words "Irish rail mismanagement" was expecting something good but then I read on and its the same old topic but while on the topic of capacity/demand etc what I can't believe is that the 6 car ICR's are operating Northern service at night. These are 2 3 car sets and they should only be 3 car sets and there is no excuse for them not being split in Drogheda. The 22.05 Drogheda to Connolly which forms the 23.30 from Pearse to Drogheda should not be operated by a 6 car train. There is no valid reason for this train not being split before departure at 22.05 from Drogheda. TBH I would even say it should be down to a 3 car set once 19.00 comes or whenever it arrives in Drogheda after that. I would of expected this nonsense would of being stopped by now...

BenShermin

miller50841 wrote: »

If the demand is there they will match with supply.
1 good idea would be to take out seats and put along the side so there would be more standing space.

There's a need for this on the likes of London Underground where trains long enough to take up the entire length of platforms are full even though they run at an every two minute frequency at peak times.

No point in taking seats out of the Dart as that would annoy off peak passengers who might find it hard to get seats on services that they could always get a seat on. The simple solution here is to have eight car trains running at rush hour, NO exceptions!!

Lapin

mtjm wrote: »

I think it's something to do with the wheels, was speaking to a driver who was waiting for a delayed train said it was something to do with the wheels, as my dart was waiting didn't have time to find out the full answer (he was waiting for commuter train btw before anyone asks)

Ah yes - The Wheels !

The only problem with the wheels on DART services and other Irish Rail trains is their inability to go round and round as much as the wheels in the UK and elsewhere.

markpb

miller50841 wrote: »

If the demand is there and they have enough money they will match with supply.

You left a crucial part out of your post.

bk

But how much money is Irish Rail saving by doing this.

The biggest expense by far is staff wages, putting on extra carriages doesn't effect this cost.

So all they are saving is a little bit of fuel, according to the IR annual report, fuel makes up less then 8% of their operating costs. So really no major savings here by doing this.

Michael D Not Higgins

bk wrote: »

But how much money is Irish Rail saving by doing this.

The biggest expense by far is staff wages, putting on extra carriages doesn't effect this cost.

So all they are saving is a little bit of fuel, according to the IR annual report, fuel makes up less then 8% of their operating costs. So really no major savings here by doing this.

But the staff are permanent so it's an overhead that can't be changed. The fuel and maintenance costs are the only variables that they have at the moment to reduce.

markpb

bk wrote: »

But how much money is Irish Rail saving by doing this.

I'd tend to agree with you except to say that at when you're short on cash, picking away at the small expenses isn't a bad idea. Especially with a heavily unionised company where cost saving negotiations can take a (very) long time.

Also, I can't think of any other reason why IR would reduce capacity like that.

bk

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

But the staff are permanent so it's an overhead that can't be changed. The fuel and maintenance costs are the only variables that they have at the moment to reduce.

What! of course they can reduce staff too, you let them go or you give them a pay cut.

LeinsterDub

bk wrote: »

What! of course they can reduce staff too, you let them go or you give them a pay cut.

Strike! We the workers demand.....

Michael D Not Higgins

bk wrote: »

What! of course they can reduce staff too, you let them go or you give them a pay cut.

And how long does it take to do that versus running shorter DARTs?

davidlacey

bk wrote: »

What! of course they can reduce staff too, you let them go or you give them a pay cut.

That doesn't happen overnight especially with a big union behind you..

davidlacey

bk wrote: »

What! of course they can reduce staff too, you let them go or you give them a pay cut.

On that subject have railway workers been subjected to any pay cuts since the collapse of IE passenger numbers, judging by how much i heard some people who work in their ticket offices makes a week, i think there should be a review....

Michael D Not Higgins

Last I heard they're still using voluntary redundancy to thin the numbers.

davidlacey

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Last I heard they're still using voluntary redundancy to thin the numbers.

id say they will save in the long run with that , but not really in the short term..

Michael D Not Higgins

Think of all those severence payments, must cost a fortune short term. I'd say the unions won't play nice til Irish Rail management take all other possible cost cutting measures first.

davidlacey

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Think of all those severence payments, must cost a fortune short term. I'd say the unions won't play nice til Irish Rail management take all other possible cost cutting measures first.

what measures are left?

Michael D Not Higgins

davidlacey wrote: »

what measures are left?

I mean the ones they're already doing, voluntary redundancy, parking up some 22000s, shorter DARTs, etc.

Then when they still have a shortfall, the unions will have no argument against pay cuts or other redundancies.

bk

So in other words, push rail in Ireland to the brink of collapse !!

And probably never gain back the customers lost to the motorways in doing so.

Michael D Not Higgins

How does cost cutting and re-aligning pay rates "push rail... to the brink of collapse"?

davidlacey

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

How does cost cutting and re-aligning pay rates "push rail... to the brink of collapse"?

are they not half way there already if numbers are anything to go by?

Michael D Not Higgins

The rail will never be gone. Even if the government pulled all funding and Irish Rail ceased all operations tomorrow, a private operator would fill the void quick enough, even if it was only to run the Cork-Dublin, Belfast-Dublin and DARTs.

bk

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

How does cost cutting and re-aligning pay rates "push rail... to the brink of collapse"?

No, I meant this when you said:

"parking up some 22000s, shorter DARTs, etc."

And with etc. I would add doubling intercity fares at peak times, 3 carriage 22k's to Cork, etc.

Rationalising staff costs would be a very good thing IMO.

In the age of leap, online bookings, TVM's, etc. are ticket sales staff even needed? Sure maybe one ticket seller/customer service person in Connolly, Tara and Hueston, but certainly they aren't needed at most DART stations.

Any time I take the DART, I never see them actually selling any tickets, they just look bored and reading the paper.

You would think maybe at least turn the ticket kiosks into mini shops selling sweets, coffee, sandwiches, etc. At least get some revenue for the staff cost.

Michael D Not Higgins

The way they'd think, they would want more money for increasing the amount of work.

bk

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

The rail will never be gone. Even if the government pulled all funding and Irish Rail ceased all operations tomorrow, a private operator would fill the void quick enough, even if it was only to run the Cork-Dublin, Belfast-Dublin and DARTs.

DART and commuter rail definitely.

Intercity I wouldn't be so sure, maybe. It is very expensive to run it and it is facing lots of competition from the motorway. So a private company would have to run a very lean operation, with low ticket prices.

But if it meant rail survived and thrived, then it would certainly be welcome.

Michael D Not Higgins

bk wrote: »

DART and commuter rail definitely.

Intercity I wouldn't be so sure, maybe. It is very expensive to run it and it is facing lots of competition from the motorway. So a private company would have to run a very lean operation, with low ticket prices.

But if it meant rail survived and thrived, then it would certainly be welcome.

It would be a lean operation. You could concentrate all the maintenance work on those core routes and if it becomes viable over time, you could open more routes.

(Although that could get more expensive in the long run as I don't know what the maintenance costs of upkeep of a disused line against completely renewing a disused line that has had no maintenance on it.)

Low ticket prices would be unlikely, c.f. rail in the UK. I travel for work on the trains here in the UK and thankfully my work pays for it as it can be hugely expensive. The biggest boon is that it is often faster than road and more flexible than flying. Also the prices don't really deter those I've seen on the trains.

This is what would have to be done in the Irish network, upgrade longer sections for higher speeds. It's entirely plausible for 22000s or even Mark 4s to do the Cork run in under 2 hours (without stopping), if the track is upgraded.

bk

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Low ticket prices would be unlikely, c.f. rail in the UK. I travel for work on the trains here in the UK and thankfully my work pays for it as it can be hugely expensive. The biggest boon is that it is often faster than road and more flexible than flying. Also the prices don't really deter those I've seen on the trains.

Unfortunately the UK and Irish markets are very different.

Typically longer distances in the UK, with much larger cities at either end and a great deal of traffic congestion on the motorways. The big cities also tend to run up the length of the country.

Ireland you have only one large city (Dublin), which is at the centre of the country and the other cities (really towns in comparison to the UK) radiate out from there. Add to that the motorways are congestion free.

It means rail faces much greater modal competition then in the UK and high rail ticket prices just wouldn't work here in Ireland like they do in the UK.

Michael D Not Higgins

Indeed there is a greater draw of population for potential customers, but compare the Dublin-Cork belt with the Central Belt in Scotland, similar populations. Granted, the two main population centres of the Central Belt, Edinburgh and Glasgow, are only 50 miles apart but they have three separate lines connecting them with a plan to build a high speed line.

davidlacey

what i dont get is, as i sit on a dart at 14 25 on the way to bray, why on earth am i sitting on an full dart set? the carriages are empty...

KD345

davidlacey wrote: »

what i dont get is, as i sit on a dart at 14 25 on the way to bray, why on earth am i sitting on an full dart set? the carriages are empty...

I'm assuming that train will remain in service during peak hours. While you might be on it at 14.25, on it's return journey from Bray, it'll be hitting peak time hours and those extra carriages will be required.

suicide_circus

Ok so the argument is that they save money by running 4 carriages at peak times? But then why are they running 6/8 carriages at off peak times? Why dont they swap it around - run the short trains off peak and the longer ones at busy times, how would that cost more?
I'm obviously not privy to some key information here because the current practice as outlines by the OP is truly baffling.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

What! of course they can reduce staff too, you let them go or you give them a pay cut.

Already been done.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

No, I meant this when you said:

"parking up some 22000s, shorter DARTs, etc."

And with etc. I would add doubling intercity fares at peak times, 3 carriage 22k's to Cork, etc.

Rationalising staff costs would be a very good thing IMO.

In the age of leap, online bookings, TVM's, etc. are ticket sales staff even needed? Sure maybe one ticket seller/customer service person in Connolly, Tara and Hueston, but certainly they aren't needed at most DART stations.

Any time I take the DART, I never see them actually selling any tickets, they just look bored and reading the paper.

You would think maybe at least turn the ticket kiosks into mini shops selling sweets, coffee, sandwiches, etc. At least get some revenue for the staff cost.

I take it that you dont use Connolly station much. Have a look tomorrow afternoon and see if one person is enough.
At the moment Irish Rail are understaffed believe it or not.

end of the road

TheLB wrote: »

Sending Dart carriages to a country town at rushhour is a waste of resources tbh. There is a intercity to Greystones at 17.38.

that train is packed enough as it is, we don't want passengers who could easily get the dart thanks, the dart is serving the other stations the intercity doesn't all though it would be nice if the intercity was given priority but theirs more chance of the west cork railway re-opening then that happening (otherwise known as no chance)

corktina

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

It would be a lean operation. You could concentrate all the maintenance work on those core routes and if it becomes viable over time, you could open more routes.

(Although that could get more expensive in the long run as I don't know what the maintenance costs of upkeep of a disused line against completely renewing a disused line that has had no maintenance on it.)

Low ticket prices would be unlikely, c.f. rail in the UK. I travel for work on the trains here in the UK and thankfully my work pays for it as it can be hugely expensive. The biggest boon is that it is often faster than road and more flexible than flying. Also the prices don't really deter those I've seen on the trains.

This is what would have to be done in the Irish network, upgrade longer sections for higher speeds. It's entirely plausible for 22000s or even Mark 4s to do the Cork run in under 2 hours (without stopping), if the track is upgraded.

I don't think non stop trains are the market. The market is traffic to and from Dublin and Cork from intermediate points.... I'd suggest that through traffic is in the minority (IMHO

devnull

With due respect BK, I'd agree with Hilly Bill on this one, they need a fair few more staff than one at Connolly station. I used it at peak times for around a year at one point and it would be chaos with just one person.

bk

devnull wrote: »

With due respect BK, I'd agree with Hilly Bill on this one, they need a fair few more staff than one at Connolly station. I used it at peak times for around a year at one point and it would be chaos with just one person.

Fair enough at the busy city centre stations, but I don't think I've seen the ticket selling staff at Clontarf Road or Sandycove sell a ticket in years.

Now not saying they don't ever, but I honestly don't think their constant presence is required.

Instead why not turn the ticket offices into shops and require the shop staff to also sell rail tickets, like shops sell Dublin Bus tickets?

Irish Rail gain rent from the shop and reduce staff costs.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

Fair enough at the busy city centre stations, but I don't think I've seen the ticket selling staff at Clontarf Road or Sandycove sell a ticket in years.

Now not saying they don't ever, but I honestly don't think their constant presence is required.

Instead why not turn the ticket offices into shops and require the shop staff to also sell rail tickets, like shops sell Dublin Bus tickets?

Irish Rail gain rent from the shop and reduce staff costs.

Its like that already bk, some of the quieter stops are unmanned at certain times of the day for various reasons like staff rosters , covering somewhere else etc.
Irish rail get rent from the shops that are already in most of these places already.

BenShermin

I've often gone into Connolly to buy a Sailrail ticket since the CIE office closed down on Middle Abbey Street. It takes the staff member behind the counter around five to ten minutes to do up one of those tickets. It only takes one customer like me to cause a huge queue if there's only one clerk at the counter.

jkbrgs

BenShermin wrote: »

And what about the 17 train stations between Connolly station and that country town?

Greystones is no "country town". There's only a small amount of standing room available at 7 and 8am before the Dart even leaves Greystones.

MGWR

jkbrgs wrote: »

BenShermin wrote: »

And what about the 17 train stations between Connolly station and that country town?

Greystones is no "country town". There's only a small amount of standing room available at 7 and 8am before the DART even leaves Greystones.

Greystones is County Wicklow's second most populous town and no small suburb of Dublin. Aside from the DART extension there, new link roads to/from the N11 have been built, highlighting the town's importance, never mind the work on the R761. Greystones' population is higher than that of Maynooth, and there appears to be a prevailing opinion that Maynooth is somehow a more worthy DART terminus. (Greystones' population is even higher than Leixlip's, and Leixlip has two train stations and three separate Dublin Bus routes serving it.)

BTW, before the DART, there used to be 13 stations between Greystones and Connolly, with Shankill being added some years prior to DART's inauguration. And Tara Street wasn't even open full-time during those years, being completely closed on weekends.

davidlacey

would it not make sense to have one person designated per small station as is the case in sandycove and actually be involved in cleaning the station and actually take pride in it as if it is theirs, i understand there is a big union is behind them but its common sense, there is no pride put into many stations and it gives IE a bad name!Its better than having them sitting there reading the paper as is the case in many stations and in some cases a person buying a ticket is a nuisance...

bk

BenShermin wrote: »

I've often gone into Connolly to buy a Sailrail ticket since the CIE office closed down on Middle Abbey Street. It takes the staff member behind the counter around five to ten minutes to do up one of those tickets. It only takes one customer like me to cause a huge queue if there's only one clerk at the counter.

That sounds more like an issue that should be solved by upgrading the online booking system and TVM's to support such tickets.

Decuc500

I read on twitter yesterday that people on a 4 carriage northbound malahide dart in evening rush hour were told to get off the train and wait for the next one as it was too overcrowded.

So is that the way it is now, put on half sized darts in rush hour leaving half the fleet sitting idle in Fairview depot and strand people on platforms?