DARTs stopping near Clontarf Road

carlmango11

Why does it so often take so long? I know that they're changing drivers but why does it take up to 5-10 minutes? The thing is sometimes its quick. Is it a case of drivers not being ready? If so, how is that allowed? If your job requires you to be dead on time then you should be dead on time or face serious repercussions.

Drives me insane!

Lapin

Public transport in Ireland has little to do with facilitating the requirements of those who pay to use it and more to do with accommodating the people who make a living from working on it.

Only in Ireland would the unions who run a so called rapid transit service deem it acceptable for their members to stop for lunch and a siesta midway through a scheduled journey.

As someone who has commuted regularly on many transit systems around Europe, I have never seen the regular sleepover similar to that which occurs on the DART in the Fairview Depot.

bk

Bigger question, why isn't the changeover done at Clontarf Dart station, when the Dart is stopped to board passengers anyway, thus saving time.

Another mystery along with why the changeover of the 16 is done on Parnell Square instead of out at the airport.

davidlacey

bk wrote: »

Bigger question, why isn't the changeover done at Clontarf Dart station, when the Dart is stopped to board passengers anyway, thus saving time.

Another mystery along with why the changeover of the 16 is done on Parnell Square instead of out at the airport.

Or the 45a/145 changeover done at little bray outside superquinn, when the journey has only started. .

bikeman1

I have been travelling on the DART for over 15 years now from the Northside into town. I have never once waited more than 4 minutes for the driver change. Normally they are quick enough 30 seconds to a minute. The odd time they have a quick chat or sometimes the driver is not there but usually appears quickly.

BK, you ask why they don't change at Clontarf Rd. I asked a member of staff with DART.

As with al rosters there is the book on time and then walking time to get to your train. The rosters have been built with about 2 mins walking time to get to the driver changeover. If it was to be changed to Clontarf Rd this would add another 2 mins each way, which would play havoc with the rosters. Also remember a lot of guys are taking their breaks etc.

Don't forget also it takes a bit of time to key out. Collect your bags, unlock the door open it. Let the other driver in, inform him (or her) what length set they have (4, 6 or 8) and tell them if there are any issues with the set that they have. Then the next guy has to key in. Set the lights, blow off the brake and move off.

So its not as simple as a fly by hope on and off.

bk

Then why not put the driver shack in the Clontarf Road Dart station?

No need for extra walking time then.

bikeman1

What? The mess room, toilets, showers, locker room training room, sign on/off duty managers office all of which a driver interacts with on a daily basis? (Maybe not the showers)

Also it is central for pulling trains out of the depot in the mornings and parking up at night.

Lapin

bikeman1 wrote: »

So its not as simple as a fly by hop on and off.

How do they manage it on the Paris Metro, London Underground, New York Subway.......?


It seems that only in Dublin are drivers breaks factored into the timetable and infringing on the passengers time.

Tow

You should try the bus, a few weeks ago a 38 I was on pulled in at Parnell Square, the driver announced he was running a little early and it would be 45 minutes before the next driver arrives.

monument

Honest question: Is there something stopping the drivers from walking to the station platform?

bikeman1

monument wrote: »

Honest question: Is there something stopping the drivers from walking to the station platform?

None whatsoever. Please bear in mind that for the majority of changeovers it can take less than a minute.

Also remember the other depot on the network is at Bray station and the drivers have their breaks there as well, which causes no issues.

My question is, why is the dart so slackly timed. I've been on trains 5 late and then on time byvthe time they reach Malahide. They just amble along. No real rush, because they don't have to.

bk

bikeman1 wrote: »

What? The mess room, toilets, showers, locker room training room, sign on/off duty managers office all of which a driver interacts with on a daily basis? (Maybe not the showers)

With the exception of the training room, which should have no effect on day to day operations, then yes, all could easily fit in Clontarf Dart station.

Close the ticket office which is pretty useless anyway and the shop and you would have plenty of space for all these.

Or why not do it at Connolly, Tara or Pearse, all of which I assume have plenty of space for these facilities.

Or just make them walk the extra two minutes, it is hardly the end of the world.

The point is that it is an unnecessary stop that just slows down the service.

Yes such stops are worse on the bus service.

corktina

bikeman1 wrote: »

all of which a driver interacts with on a daily basis? (Maybe not the showers)

is that slander or libel?

bikeman1

I assume that not every driver uses the showers
available in work everyday they go in. I'm sure they use their own facilities at home as well.

BK, with all due respect the ticket office is needed and it is in no way possible to fit all 90 drivers into that tiny space!

Yes it is an annoying stop and drivers in an ideal world should change at Clontarf Road. Have fun playing with the extra walking time trying to work that one out.

The DART is the one thing that IE run well.

We are talking a minute her lads that is built into the timetable. I would love if my next bus would arrive to the minute everyday but it doesn't. The DART does for me 90% of the time.

bk

While DART is ok, it is far from being run well.

It is far too infrequent at off peak times and it is also a little too slow making the journey it does.

ProudDUB

I have been taking the Darts several times a week since I moved out to Sutton. I can honestly say I have not experienced any major delays (of over a few minutes) at Fairview since I have been doing so. Taking the Dart is a dream compared to the number 31 bus from Howth, which only ever seems to show up when ever it feels like it, especially on weekends.

That being said, having a driver change depot right in between two existing stops, resulting in a third unnecessary stop, seems like a typically inefficient and Irish way of doing things. Imagine if patients in hospitals were left unattended during a change over in nurses shifts, because no one knew how to factor in the time it took for the arriving nurses to walk in from the car park, and get changed for their shift? Madness !

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

It is far too infrequent at off peak times and it is also a little too slow making the journey it does.

Ha! You should try the Maynooth line!

schemingbohemia

It's drivers being lazy and the usual tail wagging the dog. IE were able to stop it on the Cork line where you would often have a stop at Inchicore for a driver change but don't seem to have bothered doing it at Clontarf Road, talking about 90 drivers is disengenuous if I'm being generous, in reality there would be fewer than 6 drivers at any one time at Clontarf Road I'd be fairly sure.

It reeks of IE's overall attitude to the DART which it is not using to it's utmost.

corktina

i think the point is that timing is critical and it actually looks to me as if it is more efficent for the train to come to the man and better for the man too, if it's wet or icy.

Losty Dublin

monument wrote: »

Honest question: Is there something stopping the drivers from walking to the station platform?

Health and Safety. Were drivers to change at the station you are asking them to walk up from the depot to the station along a running line and exposing them to a risk which is, to be fair, avoidable. Also, an arrangement for people to regularly walk a section of track would require train speeds to be curtailed a la North Wall, Wexford Quay, etc.

While people will rightfully ask about PW track staff or those working in depot or freight yards, bear in mind that track staff work with watchmen on duty and train drivers will know where they are based while depots work under very low speeds; even then both situations here are carry high risks to staff and need a lot of caution.

Chris_5339762

bikeman1 wrote: »

As with al rosters there is the book on time and then walking time to get to your train. The rosters have been built with about 2 mins walking time to get to the driver changeover. If it was to be changed to Clontarf Rd this would add another 2 mins each way, which would play havoc with the rosters. Also remember a lot of guys are taking their breaks etc.

Walking time to me when it involves breaks is nonsense. I dont get credit/allowance/etc for the time it takes me to walk from my desk to the canteen or the other way round. It just becomes part of my 30 minute break.

corktina

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Walking time to me when it involves breaks is nonsense. I dont get credit/allowance/etc for the time it takes me to walk from my desk to the canteen or the other way round. It just becomes part of my 30 minute break.

that's not the point, the idea is to help schedule the trains and breaks for all the drivers etc.For the driver to walk to the station would be reduce the amount of changeovers that could be made. I daresay you don't have to have a relief desk-jockey for your breaks...

Zebra3

Lapin wrote: »

As someone who has commuted regularly on many transit systems around Europe, I have never seen the regular sleepover similar to that which occurs on the DART in the Fairview Depot.

Happens in Copenhagen too on the s-train services.

schemingbohemia

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Health and Safety. Were drivers to change at the station you are asking them to walk up from the depot to the station along a running line and exposing them to a risk which is, to be fair, avoidable. Also, an arrangement for people to regularly walk a section of track would require train speeds to be curtailed a la North Wall, Wexford Quay, etc.

While people will rightfully ask about PW track staff or those working in depot or freight yards, bear in mind that track staff work with watchmen on duty and train drivers will know where they are based while depots work under very low speeds; even then both situations here are carry high risks to staff and need a lot of caution.

Now perhaps I'm mis-remembering the Station but my memory of Clontarf Road is that there is loads of space to the left of the Northbound train line in which to walk safely.

It doesn't seem to be an issue for those drivers who leave their trains between Grand Canal Dock and Pearse, nor in previous times at Inchicore.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

Bigger question, why isn't the changeover done at Clontarf Dart station, when the Dart is stopped to board passengers anyway, thus saving time.

Another mystery along with why the changeover of the 16 is done on Parnell Square instead of out at the airport.

Money.

Hilly Bill

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Health and Safety. Were drivers to change at the station you are asking them to walk up from the depot to the station along a running line and exposing them to a risk which is, to be fair, avoidable. Also, an arrangement for people to regularly walk a section of track would require train speeds to be curtailed a la North Wall, Wexford Quay, etc.

While people will rightfully ask about PW track staff or those working in depot or freight yards, bear in mind that track staff work with watchmen on duty and train drivers will know where they are based while depots work under very low speeds; even then both situations here are carry high risks to staff and need a lot of caution.

There is a walkway from the shed up to platform in Clontarf.

Hilly Bill

bikeman1 wrote: »

I have been travelling on the DART for over 15 years now from the Northside into town. I have never once waited more than 4 minutes for the driver change. Normally they are quick enough 30 seconds to a minute. The odd time they have a quick chat or sometimes the driver is not there but usually appears quickly.

BK, you ask why they don't change at Clontarf Rd. I asked a member of staff with DART.

As with al rosters there is the book on time and then walking time to get to your train. The rosters have been built with about 2 mins walking time to get to the driver changeover. If it was to be changed to Clontarf Rd this would add another 2 mins each way, which would play havoc with the rosters. Also remember a lot of guys are taking their breaks etc.

Don't forget also it takes a bit of time to key out. Collect your bags, unlock the door open it. Let the other driver in, inform him (or her) what length set they have (4, 6 or 8) and tell them if there are any issues with the set that they have. Then the next guy has to key in. Set the lights, blow off the brake and move off.

So its not as simple as a fly by hope on and off.

All they have to do is go out a different door. Its nothing to do with rosters. they wanted money to change in Clontarf and were refused the amount that they wanted.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

There is a walkway from the shed up to platform in Clontarf.

schemingbohemia wrote:

Now perhaps I'm mis-remembering the Station but my memory of Clontarf Road is that there is loads of space to the left of the Northbound train line in which to walk safely.

It doesn't seem to be an issue for those drivers who leave their trains between Grand Canal Dock and Pearse, nor in previous times at Inchicore.

The walkway in Clontarf is still on the running line although not on the track itself so the H+S issue of being on or near track apply here.
Grand Canal Dock/Pearse yard and Inchicore are sidings and not running lines so a different level of risk applies here. That said, due care and caution has to be taken for moving trains and walkways at these locations.

ixoy

This seems to have gotten worse lately from my daily travels. Some further observations then:

- If it's based on a roster then why is it happening at different hours: 18:00, 19:00, 20:00 etc. Do drives change that often?

- Why is it scheduled during rush hour?

- Why haven't the rosters been changed to accommodate an extra 2-minutes to do a changeover at Clontarf Road station (I've seen staff walk between it and the Fairview Depot so it can't be a H&S issue).

tricky D

Hilly Bill wrote: »

All they have to do is go out a different door. Its nothing to do with rosters. they wanted money to change in Clontarf and were refused the amount that they wanted.

This.

Every time there is a change in practice proposed they ask for more money. A classic one, from an ex-driver friend of mine, was when the 8 carriage trains were introduced and they asked for money to drive longer trains. Management said no problem as long as they take proportionally less money for the 4 carriage DARTs. That was the end of that one.

Duggys Housemate

In general the Dart runs well. I agree this is a bit of an odd one though.

Hilly Bill

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The walkway in Clontarf is still on the running line although not on the track itself so the H+S issue of being on or near track apply here.
Grand Canal Dock/Pearse yard and Inchicore are sidings and not running lines so a different level of risk applies here. That said, due care and caution has to be taken for moving trains and walkways at these locations.

How do they cross the line from the up train? They cross 3 live lines with no walk way. What do they do when having to protect the train when it breaks down?

Hilly Bill

tricky D wrote: »

This.

Every time there is a change in practice proposed they ask for more money. A classic one, from an ex-driver friend of mine, was when the 8 carriage trains were introduced and they asked for money to drive longer trains. Management said no problem as long as they take proportionally less money for the 4 carriage DARTs. That was the end of that one.

They get extra for taking wheelchairs of the trains and some will still refuse to do so.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

All they have to do is go out a different door. Its nothing to do with rosters. they wanted money to change in Clontarf and were refused the amount that they wanted.

And this is exactly the kind of nonsense that we should be getting rid of in the transport system and this sense of entitlement that should not exist in said companies.

I'm all for someone standing up for their rights but this really is a non issue. For the sake of two minutes walk asking to be paid extra is well and truly petty in my view.

Staff of this opinion need to get real an realise the whole point of a publicly run public transport system is to provide a service for the public. This is yet another case of staff believing they are more important than the public.

If the staff in the public sector don't like serving the public, which is what the public sector is all about, they should go and find a job elsewhere.

end of the road

Lapin wrote: »

How do they manage it on the Paris Metro, London Underground, New York Subway.......?

don't know nor care as this is dublin were talking about here, they probably have their places to take breaks at the actual stations, probably don't have the break times factored in in the middle of a journey, and their trains are probably quicker to get going then the dart.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How do they cross the line from the up train? They cross 3 live lines with no walk way. What do they do when having to protect the train when it breaks down?

Walking along a running line to get from A to B is avoidable; walking along a running line to protect your train is unavoidable. Don't tell me you forget what you learnt at your PTS

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

an arrangement for people to regularly walk a section of track would require train speeds to be curtailed a la North Wall, Wexford Quay, etc.

could they just not build a fence along the track at wexford quay, the speed along there is just to slow

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

could they just not build a fence along the track at wexford quay, the speed along there is just to slow

I believe Irish Rail wanted to a while ago but the harbour board were against it. It is painful but it has it's charm as well. There is a crash barrier type thing around it as there had been times when vans and cars parked on the line and held up trains!

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I believe Irish Rail wanted to a while ago but the harbour board were against it.
There is a crash barrier type thing around it as there had been times when vans and cars parked on the line and held up trains!

irish rail should have built it anyway, its along railway property so the harbour board should have no say, if the current system is causing speeds to be needlessly slow then such a fence should be built unless the crash barrier as mentioned could do the job?

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It is painful but it has it's charm as well.

i agree but if any way can be found to improve speeds in the area then it should be done even if it does mean losing the charm, after all a small improvement in speed = a couple of minutes less travel time on this line which would make all the difference to rosslare passengers to be honest

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

irish rail should have built it anyway, its along railway property so the harbour board should have no say

The Harbour own the land in question so they actually have the say.

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The Harbour own the land in question so they actually have the say.

that is a pain all right, shame their isn't some way that some sort of system could be forced upon them to allow irish rail do what they can to improve the speed around the area

Hungerford

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Now perhaps I'm mis-remembering the Station but my memory of Clontarf Road is that there is loads of space to the left of the Northbound train line in which to walk safely.

If it was really such an issue, they could walk from the depot to the station using the normal entrances/exits to those buildings.

Hilly Bill

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Walking along a running line to get from A to B is avoidable; walking along a running line to protect your train is unavoidable. Don't tell me you forget what you learnt at your PTS

Point being, changing at the station wont make a difference H&S wise to the drivers from what they are doing now.

dowlingm

end of the road wrote: »

that is a pain all right, shame their isn't some way that some sort of system could be forced upon them to allow irish rail do what they can to improve the speed around the area

They could turn back the trains at Wexford Station and get the local bus company to do transfers to Rosslare.

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

They could turn back the trains at Wexford Station and get the local bus company to do transfers to Rosslare.

if irish rail had their way that would happen sooner rather then later i'd say

kingofslaves

What I want to know is why is there such an erratic service to and from Malahide on a Sunday ? First train from Dublin is 10:20am then nothing until 12:15 and the first one to Dublin is 9am then nothing until about 11am. Surely people wanting to visit Malahide on a Sunday staying in Dublin and people staying in Malahide wanting to visit Dublin would like a better service ?

schemingbohemia

kingofslaves wrote: »

What I want to know is why is there such an erratic service to and from Malahide on a Sunday ? First train from Dublin is 10:20am then nothing until 12:15 and the first one to Dublin is 9am then nothing until about 11am. Surely people wanting to visit Malahide on a Sunday staying in Dublin and people staying in Malahide wanting to visit Dublin would like a better service ?

What timetable did you check? I just checked for next Sunday and there are way more services than that.

kingofslaves

schemingbohemia wrote: »

What timetable did you check? I just checked for next Sunday and there are way more services than that.

Ok I only checked quickly on my iPhone, but still not that good service for visitors or people who have stayed over in Malahide saturday night and want to get back to Dublin. Results from Iarnród Éireann site:

Dub to Malahide:


Malahide to Dub:

Hilly Bill

6 trains in 2 and a half hours on a sunday morning ? Nothing wrong there?

kingofslaves

Hilly Bill wrote: »

6 trains in 2 and a half hours on a sunday morning ? Nothing wrong there?

ok ok I'm losing it ! Mind you from Dub to MH isn't very good ? also the commuters don't stop at every stop (I live in Killester)

Hilly Bill

Do a search for Killester then, instead of Malahide. or Killester to Malahide or Connolly.