New Beginning?? Long term resolution for unwanted house.

strongback

D3PO wrote: »

In Irish pension will not be HMRC approved.

I'm not going to wade through that second link. You are however delusional if you think somebody can go bankrupt and keep their Irish home that is in arrears.

Please don't call me deluded.

I think if you check your pension it may well be approved by the HMRC. Many Irish pensions are underwritten by British pension funds.

Not all pensions held by Irish people can be touched in UK Insolvency. I am sure of that.

strongback

D3PO wrote: »

gimme a break you think any bank / creditor wouldn't sell the asset in three years .... id call that seriously clutching at straws.

The desire is not there to throw every bankrupt person out of their home. It's not clutching at straws when it is written into UK Insolvency Law.

D3PO

strongback wrote: »

The desire is not there to throw every bankrupt person out of their home. It's not clutching at straws when it is written into UK Insolvency Law.

:rolleyes: Yeah coz a bank is going to decide not to sell so that you can keep your house free of debt in three years time. sure they will sure they wouldn't want to see poor broke Jonny out of their home :rolleyes:

strongback

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That was your behaviour not mine.

As has been done before the banks will dispute residency and void the bankruptcy declaration of the UK. It isn't as easy as you are making out

Almost all the banks objections to UK insolvency have been to dispute residency. The banks won because people thought they could live in Ireland and pretend to live in the UK. That does not work as we have seen.

Establishing the "centre of residence" is what it is all about. It's no good moving to the UK half heartedly. It's got to be a full commitment and fully living your life in the UK. Trying to be clever about it leads to failure, that has been established and should be a lesson to everybody.

gaius c

strongback wrote: »

Almost all the banks objections to UK insolvency have been to dispute residency. The banks won because people thought they could live in Ireland and pretend to live in the UK. That does not work as we have seen.

Establishing the "centre of residence" is what it is all about. It's no good moving to the UK half heartedly. It's got to be a full commitment and fully living your life in the UK. Trying to be clever about it leads to failure, that has been established and should be a lesson to everybody.

Ivor Callely? Is that you?

strongback

gaius c wrote: »

Ivor Callely? Is that you?

Just saying that its important to plan carefully and be committed to a UK Insolvency.

gaius c

D3PO wrote: »

you keep going on about manufacturing a default. Like this is a silver bullet for those pissed off with being in negative equity like its an easy solution.

Its not. Unless you are insolvent you cannot be come bankrupt, so by definition you cant manufacture an insolvent position from a solvent one without taking major pain with as many cons as there are pros.

If your insolvent, your insolvent become an insolvency tourist if you must that's fine, but don't for one minute think that somebody solvent can easily manufacture an insolvent position without lots of personal sacrifice's.

If you were solvent but were trying to manufacture insolvency that would likely involve giving up a job, upping sticks and moving country, losing all your assets (savings, cars, pension fund, furniture etc) hitting the reset button 18 months later and then moving back and trying to start again.

That's moving back with no job and no assets potentially having conditions imposed on you (unlikely it seems but its possible) and then starting again. Scrubbing years of

Great you have no neg equity but you have nothing else either. It might be less onerous than Irish bankruptcy but don't think for one second that its an easy way out because it isn't.

I really cant see the allure of this unless you are genuinely insolvent, wasting 2 years of your life and restarting from scratch like when you were 18 years old, with no prospect of owning a home for the forseeable future (if ever again) knowing that you have no pension outside of the old age pension to look forward to and whatever you manage to put into a private fund once you get back to a position to do so seems folly.

People are short sighted thinking of the now and not how this king of manufactured position will impact them in 10 , 20 or 30 years time. This is the same shortsighted thinking that got them in the financial situation they find themselves in now.

You would think they would learn....

Good post. The "we'll declare bankruptcy in the UK" folk will quiet down once they realise it's not an option for non-NAMA property developer types.

But don't be so sure about people deliberately sabotaging their positions. There's a slightly mad fella on p.ie who claims he quit work to ensure that he qualifies for insolvency.

strongback

gaius c wrote: »

Good post. The "we'll declare bankruptcy in the UK" folk will quiet down once they realise it's not an option for non-NAMA property developer types.

Insolvency is for anybody who qualifies. There's a 27 page form to fill out and then they trace back through you accounts etc. If the transactions are clean and you genuinely live in the UK then an insolvency can't be stopped.

MysticalRain

The Spider wrote: »

But ultimately there has to be writedowns for the economy to function, if someone is paying off a loan, and ok they can cover it, but they can't do much else, that money is not going into the economy, it's essentially going to pay a debt that's already covered by the bailout.

Apparently not in the case of the OP. If you look back over his posts, he seems to be contributing just fine to the wider economy with surplus money to spend on holidays* and boat trailers for his fishing hobby, plus a few other luxury items. It's fair to point out the he is actually in a better financial position than many of the taxpayers he expects to offload his debts onto.

*Foreign holidays if you want to be pedantic. So we're actually talking about him contributing to another country's economy.

Scortho

strongback wrote: »

Just saying that its important to plan carefully and be committed to a UK Insolvency.

Hasn't one of your friends gone to newry? Bad decision in my opinion.
Judges up the north are being extremely strict when it comes to establishing residency in the jurisdiction.

strongback

Scortho wrote: »

Hasn't one of your friends gone to newry? Bad decision in my opinion.
Judges up the north are being extremely strict when it comes to establishing residency in the jurisdiction.

EU law allows an Irish person to go bankrupt in the UK which for this purpose includes Northern Ireland, you are right though establishing the "centre of interest" is the most difficult aspect.

The level of record keeping is very important eg every trip to the dentist to voting in elections to continually using a debit card can all prove where a person is living. If you can provide enough evidence there is nothing the judge can do, the English judges don't want to see Irish people going insolvent either and also are making it difficult. The key here is difficult not impossible as many people have already proven.

Its no good trying to live in the South and go bankrupt in the UK, everybody that tries this including big developers with heavyweight solicitors behind them has fallen on their face. A forensic level of investigation is undertaken by the UK Insolvency Service, but if you have a bullet proof case and you do actually live in the UK there is nothing they can to do stop the insolvency. Any chink in the armour like buying flights over and back to Ireland every week will be caught out.

The debit card is your friend. Barclays bank are one, if the only bank, that will allow a person to continue operating an account through the insolvency process. Every purchase must go on the debit card. There are no half measures, establishing a "centre of interest" in the UK takes a lot of commitment.

mrmitty

jmayo wrote: »

Ehhh hello.

So you are going to punish "the banks" and make them suffer losses even though you realise you will in affect be punishing it's owners, which happens to be the taxpayers and probably even include yourself as a citizen even if not a taxpayer ?

Ever hear of that other famous quote "cutting off your nose to spite your face" ?

With your logic I can see how we got our governments.
I am outta here now.

You keep fabricating excuses for the poor judgements of banks. You steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the corrupt greed not to mention the insider knowledge that persists to this day in those institutions.
If this issue of bank ineptness is not addressed now we are doomed to repeat this debacle.

Ray Palmer

strongback wrote: »

EU law allows an Irish person to go bankrupt in the UK which for this purpose includes Northern Ireland, you are right though establishing the "centre of interest" is the most difficult aspect.
.

Can we clarify how you know how to do this correctly and how many times you have been involved?

You seem to be suggesting you know all about how to do it so are you talking from actual knowledge or is it a hypothetical view.

Even from what you are saying it doesn't sound very realistic for the group you seem most set on "helping" namely young families. It just doesn't seem to be joined up thinking about what you already said.

riclad

Look on rte ie radio 1,
bloke was on joeduffy show,a few days ago.
it,ll probably be there as a podcast, or program excerpt.
Arrrived in london ,this week, opened bank account, got a job there.
He says in 3 months he,ll apply to local court to go bankrupt.
rented a flat,
He,ll probably have to stay in uk for 8 months plus till his bankruptcy is complete.
His wife ,and kids are in ireland.
I think his mortgage is about 250k,
said his house is now worth 95k.
IF you get married , your wife does not take on your debts.
He separated from his wife ,a good while ago.
he works for a company in dublin ,
You,ll need a flat,with esb bill, gas bill,etc register on the electoral register.
get bank account, mobile phone etc.keep bill,reciepts ,
Rent receipts etc rental deposit receipt.

Would it not be easier just get married after you go bankrupt?

Even a former td, ex newstalk presenter, is currently living in wales,
in order to complete the bankruptcy process in the uk.

Ray Palmer

riclad wrote: »

Look on rte ie radio 1,
bloke was on joeduffy show,a few days ago.
it,ll probably be there as a podcast, or program excerpt.
Arrrived in london ,this week, opened bank account, got a job there.
He says in 3 months he,ll apply to local court to go bankrupt.
rented a flat,
He,ll probably have to stay in uk for 8 months plus till his bankruptcy is complete.
His wife ,and kids are in ireland.
I think his mortgage is about 250k,
said his house is now worth 95k.
IF you get married , your wife does not take on your debts.
He separated from his wife ,a good while ago.
he works for a company in dublin ,
You,ll need a flat,with esb bill, gas bill,etc register on the electoral register.
get bank account, mobile phone etc.keep bill,reciepts ,
Rent receipts etc rental deposit receipt.

Would it not be easier just get married after you go bankrupt?

Even a former td, ex newstalk presenter, is currently living in wales,
in order to complete the bankruptcy process in the uk.

That is what they are trying to do. Will they be successful? I can tell you how to make a million pounds does that mean you will make a million pounds?

If it ever happens that it causes a massive effect they will change the laws to prevent it. The UK government will receive pressure and I can assure you legal experts are looking at it here.

It sounds strange to me that permanent residency in the UK can be established in 3 months especially if permanent connections can be established with Ireland.

riclad

I,M not a legal expert ,i think he , said i,ll apply to to bankruptcy court after living here 3 months,
he might be waiting another 6 months before his application is processed,
or examined.
Every european country has a bankruptcy process ,its just that the uk
procedure is alot shorter than irish procedure.
eg 1 year versus 8 years.
Companys go bankrupt every week,its part of the economic system.
Look at the usa , 90 per cent of startup companys fail.

Ray Palmer

riclad wrote: »

Companys go bankrupt every week,its part of the economic system.
Look at the usa , 90 per cent of startup companys fail.

Completely different set of rules for companies. Same applies here. Personal insolvency rules are totally different here. EU has now made it so your company has to remain solvent, one of the big deals with VHI.

The US is one of the few countries where you can hand back your keys and no longer be liable for the debt. It is not a good example to use as a comparison as it is really the exception.

gaius c

riclad wrote: »

Look on rte ie radio 1,
bloke was on joeduffy show,a few days ago.
it,ll probably be there as a podcast, or program excerpt.
Arrrived in london ,this week, opened bank account, got a job there.
He says in 3 months he,ll apply to local court to go bankrupt.
rented a flat,
He,ll probably have to stay in uk for 8 months plus till his bankruptcy is complete.
His wife ,and kids are in ireland.
I think his mortgage is about 250k,
said his house is now worth 95k.
IF you get married , your wife does not take on your debts.
He separated from his wife ,a good while ago.
he works for a company in dublin ,
You,ll need a flat,with esb bill, gas bill,etc register on the electoral register.
get bank account, mobile phone etc.keep bill,reciepts ,
Rent receipts etc rental deposit receipt.

Would it not be easier just get married after you go bankrupt?

Even a former td, ex newstalk presenter, is currently living in wales,
in order to complete the bankruptcy process in the uk.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just go insolvent here?
Have you seen the PIP spending guidelines? They really are quite generous.

strongback

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Can we clarify how you know how to do this correctly and how many times you have been involved?

You seem to be suggesting you know all about how to do it so are you talking from actual knowledge or is it a hypothetical view.

Even from what you are saying it doesn't sound very realistic for the group you seem most set on "helping" namely young families. It just doesn't seem to be joined up thinking about what you already said.

I work in an industry where a lot of people have sought insolvency in the UK. I know a number of people who have achieved insolvency and they have told me in detail the procedure. Achieving insolvency as I said is largely about establishing a persons "centre of interest". To do that means living in the UK full time. It's not that difficult for an Irish person going to the UK.

In terms of young families my friend who is moving to Newry has small children. He was going to be forced into bankruptcy one way or another so he chose to do it in the UK as is his right as a European citizen.

strongback

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That is what they are trying to do. Will they be successful? I can tell you how to make a million pounds does that mean you will make a million pounds?

If it ever happens that it causes a massive effect they will change the laws to prevent it. The UK government will receive pressure and I can assure you legal experts are looking at it here.

It sounds strange to me that permanent residency in the UK can be established in 3 months especially if permanent connections can be established with Ireland.

In terms of residency in the UK it can be established in 3 months but waiting 5 months before petitioning for insolvency apparently increases the success rate. I'm not sure why this is.

I spent some time in the UK a good number of years back and was surprised to receive a UK General Election voting card after only living in the country 3 weeks, I didn't register to vote to my knowledge either. I didn't vote in the end as it just didn't seem right that I should have a say.

It just shows how easy it is for an Irish person to become a resident of the UK. I remember joining a council run gym at the time and they gave me a discount because being Irish I was from an ethnic minority with low life expectancy!

Ray Palmer

strongback wrote: »

I work in an industry where a lot of people have sought insolvency in the UK. I know a number of people who have achieved insolvency and they have told me in detail the procedure. Achieving insolvency as I said is largely about establishing a persons "centre of interest". To do that means living in the UK full time. It's not that difficult for an Irish person going to the UK.

In terms of young families my friend who is moving to Newry has small children. He was going to be forced into bankruptcy one way or another so he chose to do it in the UK as is his right as a European citizen.

If you know so much in detail why haven't you stated it? It is hard to believe given you had all this time to do that. Did the banks just role over or is there still proceeding pending.

Unless he brought his family and they left the property I am not seeing how he can make it his centre of interest and not an obvious way to get UK bankruptcy. I also wonder if the bank will speed things up if they found out his transparent plan.

It isn't your right as an EU citizen to get bankruptcy in another EU country it is the right to locate to another EU country and have their laws applied while there. Big difference and if it become prevalent expect a law change and I am sure their is already pressure on the UK to prevent this already.

strongback

Ray Palmer wrote: »

If you know so much in detail why haven't you stated it? It is hard to believe given you had all this time to do that. Did the banks just role over or is there still proceeding pending.

Unless he brought his family and they left the property I am not seeing how he can make it his centre of interest and not an obvious way to get UK bankruptcy. I also wonder if the bank will speed things up if they found out his transparent plan.

It isn't your right as an EU citizen to get bankruptcy in another EU country it is the right to locate to another EU country and have their laws applied while there. Big difference and if it become prevalent expect a law change and I am sure their is already pressure on the UK to prevent this already.

There isn't that much to state.

1. Actually be insolvent
2. Move to the uk.
3. Petition for UK insolvency.
4. Get called to court - smaller cases don't necessarily end up in front of the judge.
5. Live in the UK for 12 months during the insolvency process.


That's it in a nutshell. The banks in Ireland will try to stop the insolvency generally on the basis that the persons "centre of interest" is in Ireland and not the UK. If a person has a clean set of accounts i.e. no money escaping that can't be accounted for and can prove they live in the UK there is little the judge can do to stop the insolvency. We have rights as EU citizens.

I am told the UK Insolvency Service are not that keen on foreigners arriving in the UK and claiming insolvency but the fact is people are travelling from all over Europe to the UK because of the 1 year insolvency process.

It terms of my friend he is leaving his house behind and handing the keys over to the bank. He is moving his family to Northern Ireland as I type. He is genuinely bankrupt and cannot pay his bills. He either goes into insolvency in Ireland or the UK. He is choosing the UK. He will lose every possession he has worked for over 20 years. He doesn't have a pension.

As I have said many times it is imperative to success that the person live in the UK. The big name developers that have failed with UK insolvency are those that tried to do it while living in Ireland. Some others have dodgy dealings they can't account for.

Ray Palmer

strongback wrote: »

It terms of my friend he is leaving his house behind and handing the keys over to the bank..

Then it won't work he has already given up the property. The bank just have to file here and he is caught.

I thought you had to live in the UK for 12 months prior to applying.

I am not seeing any expertise here as you are certainly wrong on some of this

strongback

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Then it won't work he has already given up the property. The bank just have to file here and he is caught.

I thought you had to live in the UK for 12 months prior to applying.

I am not seeing any expertise here as you are certainly wrong on some of this

People who have an Irish judgement against them for not paying their Irish mortgage are getting UK insolvency.

Handing back the keys is just a colloquialism, what happens in reality is the person moves to the UK and then advises their Irish bank they have changed address and now live in the UK. The bank will then try to block a UK insolvency.

Its 3 months minimum prior to making the petition. Apparently in reality a person must live in the UK for 5 months before applying.