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Solar Install; the on-going saga
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This is a major reason I heart MorningStar and don't run mains chargers. You cannot get this adjustability in a mains charger for sensible money.
I updated the firmware to the latest version then plotted a course for battery immortality.
This is the first screen you are confronted with.
Fair Enough!
Sir Liamalot's secret recipe for happy FLAs (just add water)
{there's a second custom profile (not shown), selectable by removing a terminal jumper, I set it to sealed battery thresholds in case I want to lower my standards some day for redundancy}
If you see an inverter that has a HVD setting of 15V it means the manufacturers of that inverter do not understand battery charging.
Walk away they've been imbibing too much AGM Kool Aid.
If you see an inverter that has a LVD setting of 10.5V it means the manufacturers of that inverter do not value battery longevity.
Consider it a redundant feature.
I might put the fridge on an SSR and make it LVD protected.
We'll see, I've not needed it before and my battery has never seen 11.7V
My fridge doesn't have a switch (yet) or a door latch..:rolleyes:
Interesting...this might be useful for limiting fridge compressor runtime during sleeping hours.0 -
I can't source big enough (24") window friction stays with 90° opening.
I believe I have 16" in one of my junk hordes in a foreign shed I can reclaim. They might work if I build a reinforced frame...or I'll find an alternative...hrmmm
Here's my soon to be High-Tech Manual Solar Tracker Control and Automation Interface©
Momentary DPDT Switch, Project Box
& Compression Gland
I got this for peanuts. I believe it came from a boat hatch. I'll be stripping it down and regreasing it with a low viscosity EP grease.
It's got internal limit switches and diodes so I'm gonna try to KISS and give it full travel.0 -
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MPPT Online
Another use for those dual bus fuse blocks could be maintained/critical loads on An A Bus direct from battery and one LVD feed from a charge controller to the B Bus.
As long as total load doesn't exceed the controllers rating....and fridges and inverters are verbotten without relays.0 -
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Engine Start Assist B2 at 100% SOC.
I reckon my 100A Alt to B2 Maxi Blade fuse will hold.
If it doesn't I'll see alternator voltage disappear from B2Sense before I unload B1.
200A ANLs are tough blighters.
You can do a fair bittov welding before they pop.
Especially honestly rated fake gold plated chinese ones.vs
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jace_da_face wrote: »I would like to see the result of that side by side comparison Liam.
I'll post it when I get a week or month of data.
I've two identical panels and batteries a TriStar PWM and a TriStar MPPT awaiting trials.
These are 60 cell panels on 24v batteries because it's the best panel to battery relationship you can get for our climate.
I think the results will be very interesting.jace_da_face wrote: »I was thinking if I ever did get an MPPT controller I would assign my PWM to be a battery to battery charger wired to the alternator.
Don't bother I've already tried it and fired it. It's just a bottleneck in the system and something else to go wrong with controller overcurrent liability.
There's no advantage to be had. Alternators never* operate long enough to require a float stage.
*except on boats
Alternator -> service battery -> engine battery. This is the best I've found.
jace_da_face wrote: »Yes they are. People need to stop thinking of them as a kind of battery. The marketing of MPPT would have you believe that the controller will keep your panel operating at the rated V(MPP) and I(MPP). But that knee curve moves up and down as available light changes.
Last week I would've agreed with you but then I installed one on a familiar system and I'm highly impressed.
I have a very noticeable increase in efficiency which says a lot.
My instantaneous MPPT PV input in March is very similar to PWM Summer readings.
I've so much powah now between my alternator cable upgrade (2 hour drive replaces ~ 65Ah) and MPPT I've taken to hybridising my abortion fridge.
I run it at minimum gas setting and simultaneously on mains via an inverter (because the 12v has no t-stat
) set to hysteresis cycling. Works great...saves gas..the trick is to supplement it with photons, not diesel.
A standard "12 volt" solar panel is a one size fits all global spec. The cells perform differently at varying temperatures/climates. If you calculate the nominal operating temperature of your panel year round in re you will find you bought a panel with 6 semi-redundant cells on PWM controllers.
I'd fix that with different sized solar panels but the industry would rather we buy MPPT.
Beware STC temperature for solar is 25°C....now that sounds fine but that's the cell temperature. To achieve that you need an air temperature of -5°C.
The battery will clamp the panel on PWM into operating within it's voltage envelope and I was thinking so what? It has to attain Imp before Vmp and that never happens well I was wrong about that...MPPT is definitely more better, yes the knee moves, adjusting input to match is what Maximum Power Point Tracking means. I wouldn't say 30% better (yet) but it's certainly impressive.
I have to add though not all MPPT is equal and MorningStar are the best.jace_da_face wrote: »Current sources that can be arranged in series however.
So can cable ties.
jace_da_face wrote: »I see some folk suggest that by wiring two panels in series and thereby doubling the voltage of a single or parallel arrangement, would result in your charger continuing to charge beyond the point it would otherwise have cut out when in parallel, as dusk approaches.
Yeah I see that practice all the time from installers who don't use the systems they build. Let me put it another way...
"If you double the losses in your system you can get a 200% efficiency increase with MPPT" :rolleyes:jace_da_face wrote: »Sounds like nonsense to me. The point at when a single panel would cut out it is only producing a milliamp or so. 2 x a milliamp or so is trivial.
It works and it's a significant increase but it's not addressing the issue that it's an inappropriate panel for the battery. If you could get 32 cell panels for flooded batts and a PWM controller the price per watt of that system will pish all over a comparable MPPT system.**
**for small scale systems (~ <600W)jace_da_face wrote: »Wiring in series is a good idea for certain situations
True but boats, caravans and vehicles are not one of them.
Panel voltage = load voltage = maximum efficiency. Go figure...jace_da_face wrote: »but I don't think having an advantage in low light is one of them.
Every little helps when you don't have utility support.
but also true it's mostly marketing bluster.jace_da_face wrote: »And besides, when in series, if one panel is shaded by a tree or a building, then the entire circuit current is pulled down to that of the shaded panel.
Exactly and these losses will outweigh all the minor very expensive good-on-paper gains that were made.
One (same make) controller per panel is best.
One controller parallel panels: second best.
One controller one big panel: third.
The rest...
Series panels work great on barn rooves.0 -
Sir Liamalot wrote: »I'll post it when I get a week or month of data.
I've two identical panels and batteries a TriStar PWM and a TriStar MPPT awaiting trials.
Now this sounds good. Can't wait.Sir Liamalot wrote: »Don't bother I've already tried it and fired it. It's just a bottleneck...
Alternator -> service battery -> engine battery. This is the best I've found.
Fine. I'll just put it between my Zig charger P.S.U and battery then. Make the Zig smarter. I know you love my Zig!
I do see the MPPT advantage, don't get me wrong. I am simply remarking on the current vs voltage curve. I see some people misleadingly think that the voltage point on the graph moves left or right due to different light levels which is not what happens. There is simply a new curve at each light level. A set of curves. The MPPT controller will keep everything operating at the maximum power point, i.e. the knee.
I should also clarify what I mean by no real advantage of MPPT or series wiring in low light levels. During the day at our latitude when a panel can produce amps, yes there is an MPPT advantage.
At a point in the evening when a controller (MPPT or PWM) is still just about charging and is about to cut-out (at dusk), there is no advantage of two panels in series. The gain in current output is too low to meter. By my reckoning, series wiring will not keep your system charging longer into the evening, or earlier in the morning.One (same make) controller per panel is best.
One controller parallel panels: second best.
One controller one big panel: third.
The rest...
Well said.
rated-out-and-solar-panels-altestore.png0 -
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jace_da_face wrote: »Now this sounds good. Can't wait.
ehehe. You'll have to.
It's way down my agenda atm.jace_da_face wrote: »Fine. I'll just....Make the Zig smarter.
Not possible it's an over-rated linear power supply with some VSRs probably.
You need a current limited fixed (or fixable) output supply source that has a higher voltage than the absorption setpoint, and you're on your own doing this, void all warranties. (It is sanctioned to do with MPPT)MorningStar Tech Notes wrote:Description:
Can I use a power source other than a PV panel to charge my batteries?
We do not recommend using a DC power supply with any of our PWM controllers. While they appear to be similar to PV modules in function, DC power supplies have considerably more output capacitance. Connecting a DC power supply to our PWM controllers may cause excessive heating and premature failure. MPPT controllers can be used for this purpose without issue. In addition, AC powered battery chargers are often the best option for systems requiring AC battery charging.
At best it won't work (input voltage too low) at worst it'll release it's smoke.jace_da_face wrote: »I know you love my Zig!
To each his own. You might reassess after installing a power/ volt-ammeter.jace_da_face wrote: »I see some people misleadingly think...
....You could write a book.- That a battery only lasts 2-3 years.
- That an 80A alternator delivers more than 10A to service loads.
- That 2.5mm² is big cable
- That their stock battery maintainers are suitable for maintaining batteries.
- That maintenence free is more than an FLA with a glued lid and a throttled charge parameter.
- That a voltmeter is a reliable way to read battery state of charge.
- That CCA rated leisure batteries are different than starting batteries.
- That having all your boxes the same colour makes things work best.
- That alternators contribute more power than solar.
- That driving for a few hours can fully charge a battery.
- That it only takes 6-12 hours to charge lead acid.
- That a battery is charged because their charger says so.
- That AGMs are better than flooded.
- That perma-loads are ok because they are "only small".
- That the manufacturer of their very expensive motorhome didn't do the absolute minimum they could get away with on the hab electrics.
- That camping and caravan magazines are peer-reviewed journalists with scientific observations to contribute.
- That li-ion is the next best thing.
- That you don't need sense terminals or an external temperature sensor.
- That a battery system doesn't need a trustworthy meter.
- That an SOC meter that stops at 100% is acceptable.
- That manufacturers are honest upfront sellers that would never use inferior components in their products or contrive unrealistic but favourable performance data.
- That a relay is suitable for split charging circuits.
- That relay based split charging is not an inherently flawed concept.
- That split charge diodes are useful.
- That you can discharge a lead acid until the lights start dimming.
- That 12volt is better than 2 x 6volt.
- That small extortionate solar panels have anything useful to contribute.
- That combi units are better than modular.
- That something is good because it's expensive
- That salesmen offer tried, tested, true and unbiased advice.
- That people who don't live on their systems can build them.
I'll stop but I wasn't joking about the book...jace_da_face wrote: »I should also clarify what I mean by no real advantage of MPPT or series wiring in low light levels. During the day at our latitude when a panel can produce amps, yes there is an MPPT advantage.
At a point in the evening when a controller (MPPT or PWM) is still just about charging and is about to cut-out (at dusk), there is no advantage of two panels in series.
The gain in current output is too low to meter. By my reckoning, series wiring will not keep your system charging longer into the evening, or earlier in the morning.
Yes and no. Series panels are a liabilty that will come back to bite you.
The gains in low light between MPPT compared to PWM they are significant. I guesstimate MPPT's producing 0.5A more than PWM for an hour or two longer a day from a 150W panel. Say 10Wh that's not science just based on observation.
Dawn, dusk & heavy cloud.
There's a certain amount of truth in the higher voltage thing but it's probably negated by the increased switching losses due to a higher battery to panel voltage mismatch.
What they don't mention is that the inductor can howl like a banshee under these conditions. My TriStar MPPT is currently connected to a 48v battery and a 120V panel and I can't be in it's company in low light.
4kHz 40dB
My sunsaver as far as I've tested is the quietest controller/charger I've tried.0 -
:eek:Sir Liamalot wrote: »What they don't mention is that the inductor can howl like a banshee under these conditions. My TriStar MPPT is currently connected to a 48v battery and a 120V panel and I can't be in the it's company in low light.
4kHz 40dB
You can always opt for the old solution hot melt glue:
Polyolefin:
Polyamide:
Heatshrink, (bequiet psu):
Or you can go full Cackhand on it like this corsair 1500w power supply :eek:
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Gold Star if you saw this coming too.
Huzzah. Another meter!!
I wasn't going to install this until it dawned on me I could take it whenever I need it because it's a remote meter. So if a TriStar needs to borrow it. 4 screws and an RJ11 disconnect later it's away.
Above is showing Solar Power In and Power to Battery after Running Load.
A favourite night-time combo is voltage to load.
And another useful one is Voltage to SOC
Both these meters display watts (aka VA) because they are mature meters for grown ups Victron.
The backlight on the RM is not great but I am happy it's not blue and I can read it from here. ie I don't have to faddle with it.
The RM also shows Min/Max recorded voltage, Battery Temp, Air Temp, Total Ah charged. Load Info (not connected) & Array Voltage.
If I could only have one? TriMetric!
It's clever, it's visible, it's honest, it works and it shows the biggest picture.
Not having to turn off the loads to see the PV input, well it's indulgent but didn't cost me anything because it came with the Sunsaver deal.
Solar controller meters can't do the job of a battery monitor but a battery monitor can kindov do the job of a controller meter.0 -
Cheapest of the range (the greatest reason for that brand popularity). So lowliest (unless you read the hype) entry level competent meter.
The lack of watts is patronising.
The blue backlight is annoying.
The accuracy is not as good as the TriMetric.
The display is poor.
The SOC ceiling is conceited and misleading.
Aside from that...I like it enough to enjoy it but not recommend it.
I can see Crank Voltage Drop B1 or B2
Crank Assist Effort. B1
Alternator Regulation.
B1 & B2 Paralled Alternator Voltage under (Full-ish) Load.
Discharged Energy
Instantaneous Charge/Discharge
& Yellow Powah
It has a programmable "relay" I don't use too.
The TriMetric still rules the roost...It can do everything Schlictron does except the relay but better except not from the driver seat.0 -
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Is 5 hp too much to ask an alternator?
I've designed a current limiting circuit.
Bigger Pulley! Longer Belt!
I have one good thing to say about absorption fridges.
They make great Dummy Loads! :rolleyes:
Alternator Split Charge Mk - 12 Soak Test Complete.
Field Results;
(Charge to B1 - Alternator Sensing B2)
Can flash 130A Instantaneous.
Can hold 70A Charge to Service Battery While Running Service Loads (20A) & Auto Electric Loads (20A).
Eats Belts at heavy load with varying RPM. Gets Toasty.
Fixed pulley.
Regulation @ No Load 14.4V, 0A
~C3.5 Charge @ 45% SOC
~C5 Charge @ 60% SOC
~C10 Charge @ 80% SOC
Battery consuming extra coolant water.
Winter watering interval revised to every 4 months.
Fully Compatible with Solar Charge.0 -
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Won't be needing this.
Confirmed!
Ctrl + V
265Wp 60 Cell
€0.40 per Watt
Oh I can hear the late great CrabbyPaddy mocking me from the grave! Where's the tilting mechanism?
Somewhere around looking at the weight and expense of building, designing & wiring a robust, failsafe mechanism electronically locking & electrically tilting a panel this size designed to withstand a windspeed of 180kmph. I decided life was too short. :rolleyes:
Then I decided an 80Wp unregulated deployable flexible solar with sewn magnets is the answer.
KISS Clamps©0 -
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Charge State Pre-Midday (already floating. :P)
I hit 15A controller current limit from 11:00 to 14:00 on super sunny days.
Ah Daily (some mains)
Data Capped by Battery DOD
1kWh daily average.
[The trough was bird poo during 3 days of cloud.]
Vmin & Vmax Daily.
The low reading was either a Controller Reset or a 4" angle grinder Burco Boiler.
Minutes in Charge State Daily.
Absorption vs Float0 -
Bye bye my 10A - 20A Dummy Load!
Ya ruined yer last litre of cow juice!
Krusty in there!
Weeeelll, well, well....3 tickety boo fans. One torque stalling and limping. Righto put lipstick on the good ones and break out the spare.
I took the new fridge on a road test.
Amp Hour Daily versus minutes in Absorption Daily
Lowest my battery saw was 95% come dusk.
Concerned I may be boiling by battery with the abundant photons and my zealous absorption set point. I had a poke and a peer. Water wasn't low (right level), SG 1.265 at end of charge...so I topped it up (over-filled) and decided to press on and EQ (I've been driving them hard lately in the name of science).
I raised my temp comp rate from 18mV/°C to 25mV/°C & set controller to auto EQ every 90 days.
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No brainer mollah saver.
Active cooling on my boat anchor reduced the nominal operating temp 2 flames of the dial when above 15°C atmospheric.
You can heat yer van with it or vent to the atmosphere. I rather atmospherically vent.
Simple principles. Insulate the cool parts, ventilate the hot parts, keep noise and Winter outov the habitation quarters.
This is key to a happy Missus and keeping the electricity inside the fridge.
Here's the old system I ran...it worked as well as a boat anchor can...which is to say it didn't really because it was reliably unreliable about every 4 days. Suffice to say better than factory...:rolleyes:
Legacy Fan Wiring..sigh
4 x 120mm PC case fans with a current limiting resistor, two parallel 50°C Normal Open T-switches heat sinked to the condenser & a master isolator (noise police
)
2 lower ones pulling through intake, upper 2 pushing out the vent.
50°C Normal Open Thermo Switch.
complete with Cable Tie Heat-Sinking Clamp on fridge condensor.
I had a baffle installed too for improved draft.
Baffling Stuff
The electrical cost of running the fans thermostatically pays back tenfold in fridge efficiency.
The Danfoss compressor has a fan output terminal so it's rude not to.
3 12v "refurbished" fans one new-er-ish replacement.
Danfoss driven (run with compressor only). Thanks³ AC.
The compressor sounds better with the bass fan drone it's a bit dubstep without them. They're not loud, not at all..
New Baffle.0 -
I decided to raise my kitchen unit 4" seeing as I went full on refurb anyway to pack in extra insulation & keep my back straight.
The fridge sits on 3 ply of "entrance walkway carpet" for noise damping.
I wire wheeled the condenser and compressor with a dremel. Primed and resprayed with stove paint.
I added a sheet of 10mm sticky backed closed cell car insulation to the underside, back top and sides. I went 2 ply on bottom and back.
I added some "acoustic baffling foam" for good measure around the compressor because I have the space.
To sides of the receiving cabinet, I added another 10mm insulation. So back, sides and underside have 20mm, top has 10mm and the door is stock.
I rerouted my fridge and 12V power to somewhere accessible.
Any registered gas installers I'm just saying now you're right but there's no point telling me...I'm not interested....
I don't think there's any voltage drop issues it's on a dedicated 2 x 16mm² over 5m. I didn't measure it.
It works great.
I have more than enough sunlight to power it (this time of year).
It's reliable.
Always works, consistent temperature.
No faddling with ignitors or changeovers.
No usurping high power demand from charge sources.
It works better than my last lemon ever did.
I have it set to the minimum and if I could set it lower I would.
Runs about 1Ah an hour during the daytime in 25°C.
More usable volume.
Runs on clean energy and uses 10 times less of it.
I've gained loads of storage because I no longer run a spare gas bottle and the riser added 1.5m² locker depth.
I'll do better than 20Ah p/d but that'll be in Winter. Right now I've the t stat set to 1/4 what I had for the stock bench test and it's performing as well in 10°C higher atmospheric.0 -
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