Who was the better outhalf?

Swiwi

Ronan O'Gara

Chabals Beard wrote: »

It's ROG for me, over a whole career he was the best.. from 2004 to 2008 he was the best OH in the world, with Carter as a exception

This is not necessaily my opinion, but ROG is regarded in NZ as a bit of a lemon flyhalf. As I said above he never played well v NZ, and in fact he had the odd shocker or too, so despite his good performances, particularly in the 6N, he is not highly regarded back home.

I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm simply stating how he's perceived there.

Wilkinson is (grudgingly) held in high enough regard in NZ. Jones was serviceable, but he's not a patch on Wilkinson or Sexton.

Buer

Swiwi wrote: »

This is not necessaily my opinion, but ROG is regarded in NZ as a bit of a lemon flyhalf. As I said above he never played well v NZ, and in fact he had the odd shocker or too, so despite his good performances, particularly in the 6N, he is not highly regarded back home.

I think it was the Bay of Plenty match in 2005 where the Kiwi commentator remarked "Kiwis know a lemon when they see one". ROG's chances of making the test side died that day and it was only the second or so game down there.

Ruck Inspector

Ronan O'Gara

ROG went on three Lions tours but only managed 2 caps and 0 points.

Bridge93

Ronan O'Gara

Has to be wilkinson his stats are incredible for someone who was injured for the best part of 4 years. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I've seen Wilkinson have a meltdown like ROG did this year. Wilkinson is the only one being talked about for the lions this year.
Also if ROG is better than Wilko and Jones why didn't he start on the lions tours in 05 or 09? Surely he would've if he was a better player? Didn't both jones and wilkinson start in 05?
He also can't defend whereas Wilkinson and to a lesser extent Jones were/are brilliant defenders.
I'm not saying ROG is a bad player, he was a wonderful player and in my opinion Ireland's best ever 10 but he's not on par with wilkinson and about level with jones who was equally brilliant for Wales.

Tox56

Swiwi wrote: »

For my money he has yet to stamp his authority against SH opposition in the way Carter has done on numerous occasions. Yes, Sexton has been brilliant at HEC level, but he has not yet dominated a match like Carter did in the 05 Lions series.

Funny you mention it because I think one of the few times he has stamped his authority on a game for Ireland was against SH opposition, v Argentina in November.

Just looking at the stats and he scored 2 tries, had 3 assists, made 4 tackles missed 0, and ran for more metres than anyone bar Gilroy. We were without POC and BOD and he really took control. Argentina weren't at their best but he is certainly capable of it, hopefully it all comes together for one of the Lions tests

schools rugby

Who would people have has the top 3 10s in rugby at the moment ?

Very difficult to think of any 10 standing out at the moment .

Podge_irl

Ronan O'Gara

I'm not really sure to be honest. I think ROG had the longest consistent run of form - he was truly excellent from 04-07. Wilko I think was probably the best overall in terms of peak, but his peak was comparatively short. His last year or so playing for England were every bit as bad as ROG's last couple years for Ireland. I would have had Jones as close but behind those two, mind you the guy has 6 Lions caps.

Swiwi

Ronan O'Gara

schools rugby wrote: »

Who would people have has the top 3 10s in rugby at the moment ?

Very difficult to think of any 10 standing out at the moment .

Carter, Sexton, Cruden for me.

Swiwi

Ronan O'Gara

Tox56 wrote: »

Funny you mention it because I think one of the few times he has stamped his authority on a game for Ireland was against SH opposition, v Argentina in November.

Just looking at the stats and he scored 2 tries, had 3 assists, made 4 tackles missed 0, and ran for more metres than anyone bar Gilroy. We were without POC and BOD and he really took control. Argentina weren't at their best but he is certainly capable of it, hopefully it all comes together for one of the Lions tests

I agree. Sexton & Ireland were very good that day.

stephen_n

Ronan O'Gara

Wilkinson by a long long way.

[Jackass]

Ronan O'Gara

Wilko was one of the best, if not the best in the world at his peak & Jones was a starter ahead of ROG on the Lions and all round probably stronger player, so Wilko, Jones, ROG for me...

Exiles212

Ronan O'Gara

Chabals Beard wrote: »

It's ROG for me, over a whole career he was the best.. from 2004 to 2008 he was the best OH in the world, with Carter as a exception

Right.... and in 2005 the best outhalf in the world was the third choice Lions ten, ironically behind the two players listed in this poll as the other choices :rolleyes:

I'm fully aware this is an Irish forum but that is just nonsense. Stephen Jones beat O'Gara in both 2005 and 2009 for the Lions shirt. Wilkinson was miles ahead of O'Gara and has been for the majority of his career including today. Only injury has set back Wilkinson. Both Wilkinson and Jones have won more at the very top level than O'Gara.

I can't help but laugh at people talking about Wilkinson being poor behind a struggling pack, emmmm has anyone ever witnessed O'Gara behind a struggling pack? It's car crash stuff.

Huge respect for all 3 listed, but came across this thread on the search engine and I am amazed at the revisionism and nonsense spouted. Jones and Wilkinson will comfortably go down as the better players. O'Gara has always been horribly overrated by the Irish and although he has one of the great records a part of me thinks that this was more down to Ireland's inability to produce another flyhalf of decent standard until Johnny Sexton arrived (who most people I speak to think is already a far superior player than O'Gara ever was). If O'Gara was English, French, Welsh, South African, Australian, NZ he would never have gotten even close to the number of caps he has gotten and in the case of some of those countries I think his caps would be in the single digits. You cannot say the same for Jones and Wilkinson.

Rant over. Thank you.

- Derek

trouttrout

Exiles212 wrote: »

Right.... and in 2005 the best outhalf in the world was the third choice Lions ten, ironically behind the two players listed in this poll as the other choices :rolleyes:

I'm fully aware this is an Irish forum but that is just nonsense. Stephen Jones beat O'Gara in both 2005 and 2009 for the Lions shirt. Wilkinson was miles ahead of O'Gara and has been for the majority of his career including today. Only injury has set back Wilkinson. Both Wilkinson and Jones have won more at the very top level than O'Gara.

I can't help but laugh at people talking about Wilkinson being poor behind a struggling pack, emmmm has anyone ever witnessed O'Gara behind a struggling pack? It's car crash stuff.

Huge respect for all 3 listed, but came across this thread on the search engine and I am amazed at the revisionism and nonsense spouted. Jones and Wilkinson will comfortably go down as the better players. O'Gara has always been horribly overrated by the Irish and although he has one of the great records a part of me thinks that this was more down to Ireland's inability to produce another flyhalf of decent standard until Johnny Sexton arrived (who most people I speak to think is already a far superior player than O'Gara ever was). If O'Gara was English, French, Welsh, South African, Australian, NZ he would never have gotten even close to the number of caps he has gotten and in the case of some of those countries I think his caps would be in the single digits. You cannot say the same for Jones and Wilkinson.

Rant over. Thank you.

- Derek

There's so much hyperbole and exaggeration in that post but the highlighted takes the biscuit

Grimebox

Ronan O'Gara

Wilkinson, Jones then ROG.

Looking at the Lions selection throughout the years, proves this over and over. That is the only time the three of them have directly competed. They have all done wondrous things for their prospective countries and clubs but it is difficult to quantify those achievements and compare them.

trouttrout

Using Lions selections does not "Prove" one player is better than the other over the course of their career. There are so many different variables at play when it comes to Lions selection (form at the time, warm up games, type of game plan....etc)

Swiwi

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

There's so much hyperbole and exaggeration in that post but the highlighted takes the biscuit

It's definitely true for NZ though.

MBolgia

Stephen Jones

trouttrout wrote: »

Using Lions selections does not "Prove" one player is better than the other over the course of their career. There are so many different variables at play when it comes to Lions selection (form at the time, warm up games, type of game plan....etc)

Excuses, excuses ... I voted for ROG, and one of the many different variables at play when it came to my decision was bias due to my sharing a country of residence with him. I do think he was more reliable than Wilkinson and Jones, but if Sexton had been up there as a fourth option I would have picked him over and ahead of O'Gara, even in his prime.

trouttrout

MBolgia wrote: »

Excuses, excuses ... I voted for ROG, and one of the many different variables at play when it came to my decision was bias due to my sharing a country of residence with him. I do think he was more reliable than Wilkinson and Jones, but if Sexton had been up there as a fourth option I would have picked him over and ahead of O'Gara, even in his prime.

No, I was pointing out that you can't say his non selection for Lions tests "Proves" anything

I am pie

Ronan O'Gara

Can´t see how ROG could rank above either with his glaring defensive weaknesses and extremely limited threat carrying the ball in hand. His statistics don´t point to him being a better goalkicker either in terms of accuracy or ability from long distance, do they? He had a nice pass and was a great tactician when given the platform by his pack. He got so many caps as he was the most tactically appropriate OH for that Ireland team. We didn´t ask him to carry the ball and a talented back row and monstrously talented m/f picked up the defensive slack. He was the best tactically kicker of the three but the other two certainly had more in their locker which was accepted and realised by successive Lion´s coaches.

Almaviva

Ronan O'Gara

Strange poll. Wilko so superior it isnt even a contest.

Bogota

Ronan O'Gara

Wilkinson and Jones are miles aheaf of ROG. Both Lions test starters something O'Gara never achieved. Without Wilkinson England could never have won that world cup. Jones was the most rounded of the 3 but Wilkinson was something special (still is). As well as that Wilkinson is the only one of the three that is still playing to the very highest levels. He's still the second best outhalf in the NH in my opinion

Buer

Bogota wrote: »

Without Wilkinson England could never have won that world cup.

I'd heavily contest that. Pack won them that WC. Wilkinson was wobbling badly in the knock out stages. They had a dominant pack and a Rolls Royce of a back line but only scored 2 tries in those three games. Pack just crushed the opposition and kept winning penalties. JW slotted them but missed his fair share too. He was 19/25 in those 3 games i.e. 76%. People also forget the bloke missed 4 drop goals before he finally got the drop in the final.

Greenwood, Robinson and the pack should take the plaudits for that trophy but then, they didn't hit the drop goal nor have cheekbones you could hang your hat on.

Swoon.

Bogota

Ronan O'Gara

Buer wrote: »

I'd heavily contest that. Pack won them that WC. Wilkinson was wobbling badly in the knock out stages. They had a dominant pack and a Rolls Royce of a back line but only scored 2 tries in those three games. Pack just crushed the opposition and kept winning penalties. JW slotted them but missed his fair share too. He was 19/25 in those 3 games i.e. 76%. People also forget the bloke missed 4 drop goals before he finally got the drop in the final.

Greenwood, Robinson and the pack should take the plaudits for that trophy but then, they didn't hit the drop goal nor have cheekbones you could hang your hat on.

Swoon.

Yeah that's the more trendy narrative these days but it's not true. People forget that Wilkinson was taking those kicks from all over the pitch. The type of kicks that most flyhalfs wouldn't even attempt that's what made him so dangerous. He was also concrete in defense and his kicks out of hand were top. Never made a mistake and pass was crisp. He was the best and no rewriting of history will change that.

irishbucsfan

Ronan O'Gara

Wilkinson in his prime was by far the best.

If you take Wilkinson in 2003 (6 Nations and World Cup) he was 10x the player either of the others were in their prime, imo.

Chabals Beard

Stephen Jones

ROG without a doubt was the best club player out of the 3 ..

Buer

Bogota wrote: »

Yeah that's the more trendy narrative these days but it's not true. People forget that Wilkinson was taking those kicks from all over the pitch. The type of kicks that most flyhalfs wouldn't even attempt that's what made him so dangerous. He was also concrete in defense and his kicks out of hand were top. Never made a mistake and pass was crisp. He was the best and no rewriting of history will change that.

It is not a "trendy narrative these days". It is the facts of the situation. Wilkinson was struggling hugely against Wales and Mike Catt had to be brought in off the bench at half time to dictate play transformed the game. Wilkinson was bloody awful that day until Catt arrived. It was so effective that Woodward dropped Tindall for the semi-final and started Catt to play outside Wilkinson and steady the ship. That's not rewriting. That's what happened.

I am pie

Ronan O'Gara

Chabals Beard wrote: »

ROG without a doubt was the best club player out of the 3 ..

I.e. ROG played for the most successful club side of the 3.

astonaidan

Stephen Jones

trouttrout wrote: »

Not related to the poll but I don't think there's as much between Dan Carter and Johnny Sexton as some people like to think

Oh God

Chabals Beard

Stephen Jones

I am pie wrote: »

I.e. ROG played for the most successful club side of the 3.

Take away ROG from that Munster team and you take away all it's success.

jamiedav2011

Ronan O'Gara

Chabals Beard wrote: »

Take away ROG from that Munster team and you take away all it's success.

Completely misses the point. If you put Wilko or Jones (to a lesser extent, as he's a different player) in, and ROG in the Newcastle or Scarlets team, you'd have a completely different argument.

Jones had some awesome days in a poor Scarlets team, and Wilko, even now way past his peak, is leading the Toulon team.

Would Munster have 3 HEC's if Wilko was playing in 2000 for eg?

Chabals Beard

Stephen Jones

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Completely misses the point. If you put Wilko or Jones (to a lesser extent, as he's a different player) in, and ROG in the Newcastle or Scarlets team, you'd have a completely different argument.

Jones had some awesome days in a poor Scarlets team, and Wilko, even now way past his peak, is leading the Toulon team.

Would Munster have 3 HEC's if Wilko was playing in 2000 for eg?

That's like saying would England have won the WC if ROG was playing, we will never know.. point is O Gara is still the best club OH out of the 3

Tim Robbins

Ruck Inspector wrote: »

Johnny Wilkinson

• 91 caps
• 1246 international points
• 7 tries
• 1 World Cup
• 1 Grand Slam
• 6 Lions Caps
• 67 Lions Points

Ronan O'Gara

• 128 caps
• 1083 international points
• 16 tries
• 2 Heinken Cups
• 1 Grand Slam
• 2 Lions Caps
• 0 Lions Points

Stephen Jones

• 104 caps
• 917 international points
• 7 tries
• 2 Grand Slams
• 6 Lions Caps
• 53 Lions Points

It would be interesting to see the tackle count. JW would be miles ahead.

I am pie

Ronan O'Gara

Chabals Beard wrote: »

That's like saying would England have won the WC if ROG was playing, we will never know.. point is O Gara is still the best club OH out of the 3

Well, I suppose it´s something that you are now creating a new category (best club OH) as the old one didn´t quite work out.

With Munster as with Ireland, ROG was an out half with niche skills that would not have translated well to another club. He would not have shone playing for a side with an average pack and that´s why he isnt the best club OH of the 3 either.

ROG was a fortunate victim of his circumstances. He played for two teams (Ire & Munster) who were able to take advantage of his mercurial boot and pick up the slack of his weak defending and ball carrying. Those 2 black marks hold him back from being the greatest x y or z.

To be the best you need more in your locker, when the game went his way he was a great man to have, when it wasn´t working out for the team he would often make mistakes in trying to force the game. For me that´s why he didnt get more Lions game time.

jamiedav2011

Ronan O'Gara

Chabals Beard wrote: »

That's like saying would England have won the WC if ROG was playing, we will never know.. point is O Gara is still the best club OH out of the 3

Yes, because he was playing for a club with utter quality around him. It's not a reason why ROG is a better player than either of the other two.

Bridge93

Ronan O'Gara

Chabals Beard wrote: »

That's like saying would England have won the WC if ROG was playing, we will never know.. point is O Gara is still the best club OH out of the 3

How is he better than Wilkinson now who is arguably Toulons best player atm and tipped for the lions?

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

I would push ROG on the basis of what he did consistently at heineken cup level, Wilkos 'peak' as such was short but startling. Nearly all johnny's honours are at international stage whereas ROGs are at club level.

To me wilksons highlights include a total of 36 out of 46 points in englands first ever back to back victories against the ABs in 02/03.

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

Bridge93 wrote: »

How is he better than Wilkinson now who is arguably Toulons best player atm and tipped for the lions?

he didnt say "now"

Bridge93

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

he didnt say "now"

He said still the best club OH

Bridge93

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

I would push ROG on the basis of what he did consistently at heineken cup level, Wilkos 'peak' as such was short but startling. Nearly all johnny's honours are at international stage whereas ROGs are at club level.

To me wilksons highlights include a total of 36 out of 46 points in englands first ever back to back victories against the ABs in 02/03.

Wilkinson spent most of his career in a poor Newcastle side competing with Leicester and wasps. O Gara was in a brilliant Munster side. Also he wasn't injured for the best part of 4 years.

Ruck Inspector

Ronan O'Gara

Sexton >>>>>>>>. ROG at club level.

ROG >> Sexton at international, but I don't expect this to last much longer now that the Kidney is gone.

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

Bridge93 wrote: »

He said still the best club OH

he was saying of the three named, despite the arguments being made against it, ROG is still the best club OH.... which i certainly agree with.

I didnt read it as saying he is currently the best of the three... perhaps you did?

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

Bridge93 wrote: »

Wilkinson spent most of his career in a poor Newcastle side competing with Leicester and wasps. O Gara was in a brilliant Munster side. Also he wasn't injured for the best part of 4 years.

yes, consistency is a mark of a great player.

I am pie

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

I would push ROG on the basis of what he did consistently at heineken cup level, Wilkos 'peak' as such was short but startling. Nearly all johnny's honours are at international stage whereas ROGs are at club level.

To me wilksons highlights include a total of 36 out of 46 points in englands first ever back to back victories against the ABs in 02/03.

Syd, I reckon those achievements were Munster´s as a collective rather than ROGs. If either of the Jones or Jonny Wilkinson were in that great side I don´t think the results would be different.

However, if ROG went to the WC with England I don´t think they would have won it.

Bridge93

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

he was saying of the three named, despite the arguments being made against it, ROG is still the best club OH.... which i certainly agree with.

I didnt read it as saying he is currently the best of the three... perhaps you did?

He'll havta clarify for us. I believe either way Wilkinson was/is/will be a better player than O Gara.

Bridge93

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

yes, consistency is a mark of a great player.

Which Wilkinson has been whenever fit. Can't say the same about O Gara this season

totallegend

Ronan O'Gara

Wilkinson at his best was infinitely better than the other two at their best. No contest.

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

I am pie wrote: »

.....

However, if ROG went to the WC with England I don´t think they would have won it.

hummm..........

because johnny kicked penalties and drop goals under pressure... which of course, ROG was useless at????

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

hummm..........

because johnny kicked penalties and drop goals under pressure... which of course, ROG was useless at????

No but I'd put strong money that in an absolute ferociously physical WC final, Australia would have broken through ROG's defence and put at least one additional penalty on the board. ROG also wasn't the kicker in 2003 that he became. He was 2/5 in the pool game against Australia that we lost by a single point.

Chabals Beard

Stephen Jones

In fairness, name one good out half who had a poor pack in front of him. From someone who plays 10 it is incredibly hard to play when your pack, especially your backrow are being beaten

Buer

Chabals Beard wrote: »

In fairness, name one good out half who had a poor pack in front of him. From someone who plays 10 it is incredibly hard to play when your pack, especially your backrow are being beaten

Felipe Contepomi. His team lost the very biggest games against the top sides games but there were multiple games where he looked class and won the game despite his pack being on the back foot.