Who was the better outhalf?

Chabals Beard

Stephen Jones

Buer wrote: »

Felipe Contepomi. His team lost the very biggest games against the top sides games but there were multiple games where he looked class and won the game despite his pack being on the back foot.

The Argie pack was always able to mix it with the best of them

Buer

Chabals Beard wrote: »

The Argie pack was always able to mix it with the best of them

But the Leinster one was kicked up and down the park. Look at the Leinster pack that beat Toulouse. Brian Blaney, Bryce Williams, Cameron Jowitt, weak. Couldn't do anything against sides like Leicester and Munster that simply owned the ball but anything outside of that was winnable. He could win the game with 30-40% of possession.

irishbucsfan

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

hummm..........

because johnny kicked penalties and drop goals under pressure... which of course, ROG was useless at????

He was also probably the best tackler in the world pound for pound.

I remember the IT asked players from all teams in the buildup to the 2003 world cup who was the best defender in the world and everyone said Wilkinson apart from a couple (including Wilkinson) who said Lemi.

And ROG WAS useless at that.

Eoin

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

Using Lions selections does not "Prove" one player is better than the other over the course of their career. There are so many different variables at play when it comes to Lions selection (form at the time, warm up games, type of game plan....etc)

True, I seem to remember that Tyrone Howe got called up to the Lions as a replacement ahead of Denis Hickie, and I'm pretty sure that Hickie was fit and ready to play. Not that I'd say ROG was the best 10 in the world though; I think that's a stretch.

I think the order in the first post is about right.

irishbucsfan wrote:

He was also probably the best tackler in the world pound for pound.

Agreed, I remember the papers after England hockied us in the 6N - think it was just before the RWC. There was three pictures of JW dump tackling various Irish players, and they weren't small guys either. He did go in a bit high the other weekend though!

irishbucsfan

Ronan O'Gara

Was that the day Greenwood trolled us with the ball in the corner?

If it was theres an amazing sequence where Wikkinson made like 3 tackles in a row. He really was a uniquely talented defensive 10.

Ruck Inspector

Ronan O'Gara

Eoin wrote: »

Agreed, I remember the papers after England hockied us in the 6N - think it was just before the RWC. There was three pictures of JW dump tackling various Irish players, and they weren't small guys either. He did go in a bit high the other weekend though!

Pretty sure ROG would be in a wheelchair if he tried to tackle that guy

trouttrout

Ruck Inspector wrote: »

Pretty sure ROG would be in a wheelchair if he tried to tackle that guy

Is there any need for this kind of ridiculous hyperbole when it comes to any player?

ROG is a bad defender, but this kind of thing really irritates me tbh. ROG has tried (and failed) to tackle bigger guys yet thankfully has remained out of the way of serious injury. Not nice assuming one would befall him if he were to try an tackle him

Sundy

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

Is there any need for this kind of ridiculous hyperbole when it comes to any player?

ROG is a bad defender, but this kind of thing really irritates me tbh. ROG has tried (and failed) to tackle bigger guys yet thankfully has remained out of the way of serious injury. Not nice assuming one would befall him if he were to try an tackle him

In fairness to ROG he never dodged when players ran at him, he tried. I cant think right now of a game where a missed tackle from him cost a win.

He actually benefited from people knowing he had a weak tackle because player ran straight down his throat and by getting in their way he usually delayed them enough for a secondary tackler to get there.
I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing but putting your body in front of a player is brave. its better than just sticking out a weak arm a la Geordan Murphy v france.

Grandpa Hassan

Ronan O'Gara

Jonny Wilkinson v Emile Ntamack.

And that wasn't a one off. Even if all other things were equal between the three of them, its the physicality that set JW apart

artvandelay48

Ronan O'Gara

shuffol wrote: »

I think Wilkinson and ROG were evenly matched in a lot of ways, except defense where there's an enormous gulf and thats the deciding factor for me.

Wilkinson for this hit alone:

Whatever you think about the wilko hype, he changed the way 10s play. After wilko arrived, gone were there days when you could carry a "mercurial" player (Arwel Thomas anyone?) that couldn't tackle himself out of a paper bag. Wilko was the first tough tackling 10. To call him just a kicker is doing him a great disservice.

Edit: Grandpa Hassan, Snap!

Buer

The year before the WC was just unreal from Wilkinson. He played to a level that hadn't been seen before by an international outhalf on a consistent basis and has only been shown by Carter since.`If you start with the win against NZ in London where he chipped the defence and gathered for a try, the series of games that followed were simply unreal. 11 games, 11 wins, 171 points, NZ beaten home and away, Australia beaten home and away.

Gambas

Ronan O'Gara

Wilkinson is miles ahead of the other two IMO. Defensively he was immense, cut from the same cloth as BOD and similarly destroyed his own shoulders with the same ferocity. Aside from that, his placekicking was peerless. There is no outhalf more suited to 10 man rugby behind a dominant pack. No chance England would have won in 2003 with anyone else.

Little between Jones and ROG, both top class place kickers if not quite in JW's league. ROG was excellent out of hand, be it finding touch or drop goals, Jones better defensively. I think the Lions caps ultimately tell a tale though. Keeping the heart in check, and going with the head, Jones shades it for me too.

Buer

Jones also had balls of steel when required under pressure. People often say that ROG was the main man in this regard but SJ was well able to deliver also. That penalty in the 76th minute of the second test in 2009 was possibly as high a pressure penalty as has been kicked in international rugby in the past decade. Flatley and Donald can lay claim to that also but their kicks were probably easier if memory serves me right.

eyeball kid

Ronan O'Gara

Think I'd have to go for Wilkinson. At his best, he was far better than the ROG and Jones. Scary to think of the number of caps/points he could have got if he wasn't injured for so long after the 2003 world cup.

Tim Robbins

eyeball kid wrote: »

Think I'd have to go for Wilkinson. At his best, he was far better than the ROG and Jones. Scary to think of the number of caps/points he could have got if he wasn't injured for so long after the 2003 world cup.

I think JW would have made the all blacks. I don't think ROG would have.

Webbs

Ronan O'Gara

throughout the Irish 'golden generation' the general consensus in Wales was thank god the Irish didnt have a more rounded OH such as Jones otherwise Ireland could and should have a hatful of slams. For that reason it has to be Wilko, Jones ROG in that order. (this is not to say that ROG wasnt a class act in his time)

hardCopy

Ronan O'Gara

I love Wilkinson as a player but maybe he should have minded his body a bit more and avoided some of those big hits. It can't be a coincidence that ROG with his famous aversion to tackling managed to have a long and pretty much injury free career.

trouttrout

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think JW would have made the all blacks. I don't think ROG would have.

I don't think he would have considering Wilikinson's style is completely contradictory to how the AB's play

Grimebox

Ronan O'Gara

hardCopy wrote: »

I love Wilkinson as a player but maybe he should have minded his body a bit more and avoided some of those big hits. It can't be a coincidence that ROG with his famous aversion to tackling managed to have a long and pretty much injury free career.

I'm gonna go ahead and call that coincidence

Tox56

Webbs wrote: »

throughout the Irish 'golden generation' the general consensus in Wales was thank god the Irish didnt have a more rounded OH such as Jones otherwise Ireland could and should have a hatful of slams. For that reason it has to be Wilko, Jones ROG in that order. (this is not to say that ROG wasnt a class act in his time)

In fairness (I can't be arsed to look up
the stats) but we had something like 3 second place finishes in the 6N in the space of like 5/6 years when ROG was the 10, often on points difference and usually to the bloody French. Maybe a more rounded OH would have helped but we weren't far off getting those slams and championships. Ironically the 1 year we did get a slam ROG was actually pretty crap, so there's always a bit of luck with these things, and we didn't get it during the 00s

.ak

Ronan O'Gara

Buer wrote: »

Jones also had balls of steel when required under pressure. People often say that ROG was the main man in this regard but SJ was well able to deliver also. That penalty in the 76th minute of the second test in 2009 was possibly as high a pressure penalty as has been kicked in international rugby in the past decade. Flatley and Donald can lay claim to that also but their kicks were probably easier if memory serves me right.

Only watched it the other day. Such a tricky kick. Even though I knew how it ended up I got butterflies watching that kick! Probably a good example of how to measure the 'steel' between outhalves. Even when trailing SJ kept it together, where as the less said about ROG's last few moments the better.

bilston

Ronan O'Gara

.ak wrote: »

Only watched it the other day. Such a tricky kick. Even though I knew how it ended up I got butterflies watching that kick! Probably a good example of how to measure the 'steel' between outhalves. Even when trailing SJ kept it together, where as the less said about ROG's last few moments the better.

To be fair to ROG was he not concussed for most the last few minutes? I seem to remember he got whacked on the head but got up and played on.

Eoin

Ronan O'Gara

hardCopy wrote: »

I love Wilkinson as a player but maybe he should have minded his body a bit more and avoided some of those big hits. It can't be a coincidence that ROG with his famous aversion to tackling managed to have a long and pretty much injury free career.

I don't think ROG dodged tackles. He may have been swatted aside or needed an assist, but he made the effort.

desertcircus

Wilkinson kicked a World Cup-winning drop goal before O'Gara became first choice for Ireland. He's in a Heineken Cup final and expected to tour as a Lion when O'Gara is widely expected to retire. In the middle, there were vast numbers of injuries and a national side in turmoil, and Wilkinson still collected a losing finalist's medal in 2007. O'Gara had a great HC career and a pretty good international one, while Wilkinson had an utterly stellar international career and may yet collect a HC medal. It's not a realistic comparison.

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

wilkinson has scored 731 european cup points to date. 4 tries

O Gara has scored 1384 european cup points to date. 8 tries


while johnny has obviously had the glittering international career, ROG is stand alone at eurpean club level.

Theres not as much between them as the last few pages would suggest.

You dont get 2 heineken cup winners medals by being wet paper.

trouttrout

Question: Would any Leinster fans like to see Wilkinson as their starting ten? (aimed at Leinster in particular because of the brand of rugby they play)

shuffol

Eoin wrote: »

I don't think ROG dodged tackles. He may have been swatted aside or needed an assist, but he made the effort.

This is a common notion but IMO it's a token effort he makes, he doesnt exactly run out of the way of ball carriers but he neither does he make a genuine effort to bring them down.

desertcircus

sydthebeat wrote: »

wilkinson has scored 731 european cup points to date. 4 tries

O Gara has scored 1384 european cup points to date. 8 tries


while johnny has obviously had the glittering international career, ROG is stand alone at eurpean club level.

Theres not as much between them as the last few pages would suggest.

You dont get 2 heineken cup winners medals by being wet paper.

That's a meaningless comparison without some sort of look at how many HC games each played. Not to mention the fact that a World Cup winner's medal trumps HC titles; Wilkinson is the only 10 from the northern hemisphere to have won a world cup final.

jamiedav2011

Ronan O'Gara

Eoin wrote: »

I don't think ROG dodged tackles. He may have been swatted aside or needed an assist, but he made the effort.

He did two fairly good impressions of it this year against Cardiff and last year against Ospreys, but in general I'd agree.

desertcircus

trouttrout wrote: »

Question: Would any Leinster fans like to see Wilkinson as their starting ten? (aimed at Leinster in particular because of the brand of rugby they play)

No, because he'd be a square peg in a round hole.

trouttrout

desertcircus wrote: »

That's a meaningless comparison without some sort of look at how many HC games each played. Not to mention the fact that a World Cup winner's medal trumps HC titles; Wilkinson is the only 10 from the northern hemisphere to have won a world cup final.

If that's a meaningless comparison I don't know what you were hoping to gain by comparing their world cup records considering how strong England were in 03 in comparison to Ireland

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

trouttrout wrote: »

Question: Would any Leinster fans like to see Wilkinson as their starting ten? (aimed at Leinster in particular because of the brand of rugby they play)

of the three named, yes definitely.
I think its a bit of a miss conception that hes limited in moving a back line, look who he has playing outside him at toulon !!

trouttrout

desertcircus wrote: »

No, because he'd be a square peg in a round hole.

Exactly, and he'd be a square peg in the vast majority of top sides these days too

trouttrout

sydthebeat wrote: »

of the three named, yes definitely.
I think its a bit of a miss conception that hes limited in moving a back line, look who he has playing outside him at toulon !!

I don't think it is a misconception, he simply isn't great at it

Sits very deep and isn't a fantastic distributor

ROG in his prime would be much more suited to a team looking to play attractive running rugby

jamiedav2011

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

wilkinson has scored 731 european cup points to date. 4 tries

O Gara has scored 1384 european cup points to date. 8 tries


while johnny has obviously had the glittering international career, ROG is stand alone at eurpean club level.

Theres not as much between them as the last few pages would suggest.

You dont get 2 heineken cup winners medals by being wet paper.

I can't believe anyone is even raising this as a consideration!

It's just not an issue, Wilko spent 12 years at a struggling Newcastle, meanwhile ROG was generally behind on of the best packs in Europe!

It's got very little indication of the merits of the two players, other than it obviously pointing to the fact that ROG was indeed a class player, which nobody is disputing.

It's certainly not an indication of there being 'not much between them' as players!

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

desertcircus wrote: »

That's a meaningless comparison without some sort of look at how many HC games each played. Not to mention the fact that a World Cup winner's medal trumps HC titles; Wilkinson is the only 10 from the northern hemisphere to have won a world cup final.

dont know why its meaningless, its arguable that a more consistent annual heineken cup is a better reflection of a player than an intermittent 4 year competition.

lets not forget that Stuart Abbot has a world cup winners medal too

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

I can't believe anyone is even raising this as a consideration!

It's just not an issue, Wilko spent 12 years at a struggling Newcastle, meanwhile ROG was generally behind on of the best packs in Europe!

It's got very little indication of the merits of the two players, other than it obviously pointing to the fact that ROG was indeed a class player, which nobody is disputing.

It's certainly not an indication of there being 'not much between them' as players!

if your going to quote me, will you please quote what i actually said!!!

trouttrout

Stats don't really even begin to tell the story of a player considering all the variables at work

Remember, Andy Powell and Ugo Monye were Lion's!

rrpc

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

dont know why its meaningless, its arguable that a more consistent annual heineken cup is a better reflection of a player than an intermittent 4 year competition.

lets not forget that Stuart Abbot has a world cup winners medal too

Well it is (meaningless) if your club was hardly ever in the HEC.

jamiedav2011

Ronan O'Gara

sydthebeat wrote: »

if your going to quote me, will you please quote what i actually said!!!

That's grand, but the rest of the post is still salient, there's little if any point in comparing their points scoring record (not even their average points scoring record!) in a tournament where one was playing with a top club side, and one with friggin Newcastle for the vast majority, along with being injured!

Actually, Wilko has a better average ppg than ROG. So QED then?! Come off it!

Grimebox

Ronan O'Gara

What are their respective averages?

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

That's grand, but the rest of the post is still salient, there's little if any point in comparing their points scoring record (not even their average points scoring record!) in a tournament where one was playing with a top club side, and one with friggin Newcastle for the vast majority, along with being injured!

Actually, Wilko has a better average ppg than ROG. So QED then?! Come off it!

nope, its about consistency.
Unless johnny wins a HC this year with toulon, ROG will be the undoubted best 10 in most peoples heineken cup legends team.

At no time have i argued that ROG is better than Johnny, i voted for johnny in the poll, but as to who was the better 10, i will argue that its a lot closer than the last few pages have been suggesting. Reading some of the posts here you'd think ROG was powder puff whereas wilko was a hulk. The truth as always lies somewhere between.

sydthebeat

Stephen Jones

Grimebox wrote: »

What are their respective averages?

johnny 731 from 51 games (6 as substitute) 14.33 avg

ROG 1384 from 111 games ( 1 as substitute) 12.47 avg

thats total European scores.
johnny has 485 out of the 731 in the second tier competition (challange cup)

razorblunt

Ronan O'Gara

The biggest thing against ROG there is the 0 points for the Lions, 3 consecutive tours and nothing to show for it except a brainfart in the 2nd test in 2009.

The order listed is correct for me.

Buer

The only level playing field we have is the Lions. They all had tours and there was one where all three of them went. ROG consistently did not deliver on them. He picked up bench caps in 2009 and 2005 when injuries forced it otherwise he wouldn't have had any. We can argue about international and club performances until the cows come home but when they were all in a straight shoot out, there was a very clear and defined pecking order.

artvandelay48

Ronan O'Gara

trouttrout wrote: »

I don't think it is a misconception, he simply isn't great at it

Sits very deep and isn't a fantastic distributor

ROG in his prime would be much more suited to a team looking to play attractive running rugby

The bigger misconception is that ROG is good a getting a backline moving. We didn't win the slam playing attractive running rugby.

Binge101

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Carter in a league of his own, better than all three.

Wilko - ROG - Jones after that for me.

Think Larkham deserves a mention in this area for me. Completely different player but had some serious moments too.

Larkham deserves more than a mention.
Twice the player ROG and Jones ever were.

Wilkinson was way ahead of Jones and ROG at his peak.

Jones is simply a better player than ROG as evidenced by Lions Tours.

Binge101

Sundy wrote: »

I cant think right now of a game where a missed tackle from him cost a win.
.

Lions second test 09.
New Zealand 06.

corny

Ronan O'Gara

Binge101 wrote: »

Lions second test 09.
New Zealand 06.

Was that when McCalister ran through him?

Buer

Binge101 wrote: »

Larkham deserves more than a mention.

I'd have Larkham ahead of Wilkinson as well as ROG and Jones. He was simply gifted and an absolute joy to watch. Just like Wilkinson, he led his side to a WC and another final. I don't think there has been a better passing/running outhalf in my lifetime and I include Carter in that. Carter gets the nod based on all round game though.