Sweetman and the Killaloe bridge

topper75

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/environmentalist-challenges-permission-for-killaloe-bypass-1.1392109

Environmentalist challenges permission for Killaloe bypass Permission for construction of a bypass around the town of Killaloe is being challenged in the High Court.
The development, which includes a new bridge over the River Shannon, means loss of woodlands and species associated with that ecosystem, including otters, salmon, lamprey, swans, and kingfishers, it is claimed.
Enviromentalist Peter Sweetman and an environmental protection company, The Swans and the Snails Ltd, claim the project, involving construction of a 170-metre bridge over the river Shannon will result in irreversible destruction of a woodland habitat.

I see with some alarm that the Sweetman guy who has been holding the future of long-suffering Galway city to ransom in recent years has now stuck his oar in to a development that residents of East Clare recognise as crucial to a sustainable future. To my mind, people like that are an enemy, not just of human progress, but of democracy. The habitats he expresses concern for are not unique in either the Galway or Killaloe context. We are talking about the river Shannon - it is not like any swan, otter etc. displaced by the bridge will have difficulty seeking a new abode nearby. I look forward to seeing his nonsense shot down pretty soon.

Carry

The "Sweetman guy" as you call him, has a point, though.

Did you ever consider that it's not about the fauna and flora alone, but about the often inconsiderate development plans of eager councilors? That the development is maybe a joint venture of "my cousin's husband's brother's dad has a business which needs business" - and: "I want to be re-elected again"?

Might be or might not be. But don't we all know about how business is done and how the oh so precious land everyone would kill for (theoretically) is being destroyed usually in a very nonchalance way?

I know about Sweetman regarding another environmental cause in which I was peripheral involved but felt strongly about.

As I see it: His is a struggle against a gombeen nation, which is trying to make money, even if this beautiful Irish environment and historical uniqueness is destroyed. Ghost estates anyone?

It's not about some animal species most of the Irish don't care about anyway. It's about to make a point how to deal with your land, your heritage and history - of which ye all so passionate about in the pub and after a couple pints, innit?

You can't build a future by destroying the past. And you can't build your bridges on political swamp.

Did you ever learn about the recent past? Do you ever think beyond the parish pump?

Sweetman probably just uses the legal EPA-terms available to prevent or at least alter a development which is as usual ill-conceived - as the whole government policy which put most of us in despair.

Lady Chatterton

Peter Sweetman was 100% correct when he was involved in the case that forced Shannon Airport to comply with a condition to build a sewerage system rather than dumping untreated waste it into a special area of conservation.

Brennans Row

Here is a link to the Clare County Council regarding the Bypass, the Shannon Bridge Crossing and the upgrade of the existing R494 Regional Road from Ballina to the N7 at Bridhill.

There is a pdf titled Natura Impact Statement.

It’s a massive project.

Iwannahurl

topper75 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/environmentalist-challenges-permission-for-killaloe-bypass-1.1392109

I see with some alarm that the Sweetman guy who has been holding the future of long-suffering Galway city to ransom in recent years has now stuck his oar in to a development that residents of East Clare recognise as crucial to a sustainable future. To my mind, people like that are an enemy, not just of human progress, but of democracy. The habitats he expresses concern for are not unique in either the Galway or Killaloe context. We are talking about the river Shannon - it is not like any swan, otter etc. displaced by the bridge will have difficulty seeking a new abode nearby. I look forward to seeing his nonsense shot down pretty soon.

Less of the hysteria please.

There's no holding to ransom involved. Galway City's traffic problems did not fall out of the sky, and were created by fallible processes of what you might call "human progress" and "democracy".

Sweetman pursued the Galway Bypass issue through the Irish courts system, the Supreme Court referred questions of EU environmental law to the European Court of Justice, and eventually issued a ruling which, according to Sweetman, vindicated his original position on the matter. The Irish Supreme Court now has to decide on the issue of the Galway Bypass, taking the ECJ ruling into account.

How is that undemocratic? In what way might the ECJ's ruling be described as "nonsense"?

topper75

Carry wrote: »

Did you ever consider that it's not about the fauna and flora alone, but about the often inconsiderate development plans of eager councilors? That the development is maybe a joint venture of "my cousin's husband's brother's dad has a business which needs business" - and: "I want to be re-elected again"?...



...Ghost estates anyone?

....Did you ever learn about the recent past? Do you ever think beyond the parish pump?

Sweetman probably just uses the legal EPA-terms available to prevent or at least alter a development which is as usual ill-conceived - as the whole government policy which put most of us in despair.

Are you suggesting that the bridge is a cynical political ploy? When builders build stuff, they are entitled to payment. This casts doubt for me on your familiarity with the locality affected. Are you seriously likening houses that there was no market for to a bridge that will take traffic from heavily-pressured centuries-old infrastructure? The people of East Clare are stuck at your dreaded parish pump if they do not have the proper infrastructure to carry them elsewhere! I'd like you to explain why the bridge is "ill-conceived" please.

MrsD007 wrote: »

Peter Sweetman was 100% correct when he was involved in the case that forced Shannon Airport to comply with a condition to build a sewerage system rather than dumping untreated waste it into a special area of conservation.

Twice a day a stopped clock is telling the right time.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Less of the hysteria please...

There's no holding to ransom involved. Galway City's traffic problems did not fall out of the sky, and were created by fallible processes of what you might call "human progress" and "democracy".

Sweetman pursued the Galway Bypass issue through the Irish courts system, the Supreme Court referred questions of EU environmental law to the European Court of Justice, and eventually issued a ruling which, according to Sweetman, vindicated his original position on the matter. The Irish Supreme Court now has to decide on the issue of the Galway Bypass, taking the ECJ ruling into account.

How is that undemocratic? In what way might the ECJ's ruling be described as "nonsense"?

I don't think I was hysterical in making my point. However, I may be prone to hysteria when taking 50 minutes to go from one side of Galway to the other or backed up for a half hour in Ballina on a sunny afternoon. No problem 'falls out of the sky', as you put it.

Populations grow and the need for infrastructure in and between our settlements grows with it. I don't worry about Galway in the long run as they will get it through the IROPI scheme. The needs of many can't be neglected by the preferences of the few. That is how it is undemocratic.

The ECJ ruling referred to bog cotton, not recognising that this stuff grows everywhere across Connemara not just Tonabrocky. It said also that the integrity of the Lough Corrib area would be violated but the city needs a ring road and there is no alternative other than a causeway across the bay. The ECJ ruling was nonsense because it ignored common sense.

But let's get back on topic here and explain if you can why the bridge in Killaloe ought not go ahead as planned. Do you know the area? Have you witnessed the traffic at peak times in Killaloe and O'Brien's Bridge. How would you have this addressed?

Iwannahurl

topper75 wrote: »

I don't think I was hysterical in making my point. However, I may be prone to hysteria when taking 50 minutes to go from one side of Galway to the other or backed up for a half hour in Ballina on a sunny afternoon. No problem 'falls out of the sky', as you put it.

Populations grow and the need for infrastructure in and between our settlements grows with it. I don't worry about Galway in the long run as they will get it through the IROPI scheme. The needs of many can't be neglected by the preferences of the few. That is how it is undemocratic.

The ECJ ruling referred to bog cotton, not recognising that this stuff grows everywhere across Connemara not just Tonabrocky. It said also that the integrity of the Lough Corrib area would be violated but the city needs a ring road and there is no alternative other than a causeway across the bay. The ECJ ruling was nonsense because it ignored common sense.

Referring to Peter Sweetman as "an enemy of democracy" holding Galway City "to ransom" is hysteria.

The ECJ ruling referred to the Habitats Directive, the integrity of priority sites and the Precautionary Principle.

Define "need". A large proportion of car use is single-occupant over short distances. I don't see much "common sense" or "need" in that context.

The desires of car users cannot take precedence over EU environmental law.

pilate 1

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Referring to Peter Sweetman as "an enemy of democracy" holding Galway City "to ransom" is hysteria.

The ECJ ruling referred to the Habitats Directive, the integrity of priority sites and the Precautionary Principle.

Define "need". A large proportion of car use is single-occupant over short distances. I don't see much "common sense" or "need" in that context.

The desires of car users cannot take precedence over EU environmental law.

take out car users and substitute irish citizens and you pretty much get the picture(imho) anyone who suggests a new bridge isnt required because a large proportion of the traffic is unnecessry is simply talking bo...ox!

Iwannahurl

pilate 1 wrote: »

take out car users and substitute irish citizens and you pretty much get the picture(imho) anyone who suggests a new bridge isnt required because a large proportion of the traffic is unnecessry is simply talking bo...ox!

That's a non sequitur. If the recent ECJ ruling affects the Killaloe project in the same way that it seems to affect the Galway Bypass, then the critical test will be whether there are alternative solutions. Cars are not citizens, and traffic is not a natural object.

topper75

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A large proportion of car use is single-occupant over short distances.
The desires of car users cannot take precedence over EU environmental law.

Well why should I driving from, let's say Ennis to Clifden, have to suffer in amongst all these drivers going a short distance in Galway city. The obvious solution is an outer bypass. I've seen Galway's transport system in action. It does not provide an alternative to your detested single occupant cars. Leaving these things in the hands of a state-run service ain't pretty in a city with so much sideward blown rain. In Parkmore there isn't even a shelter at the bus stop.


The will of a sovereign people is supreme - more important than any law - EU or otherwise. That is my core belief as a democrat. I can see from recent elections how the will of the people can be inconvenient to those with a green agenda.

As for car alternatives in East Clare/N. Tipp

Clareman

I will not understand how/why people will go online into a public forum and say potentially libellous things about a public figure, especially 1 that has a track record of bringing things to the highest courts available.

Remember folks, whereas you might think you are posting anonymously because you are posting a username, your real world name and details can be very easily sourced and will be made available by the owners of boards if they are given a court order to provide them.

pilate 1

Iwannahurl wrote: »

That's a non sequitur. If the recent ECJ ruling affects the Killaloe project in the same way that it seems to affect the Galway Bypass, then the critical test will be whether there are alternative solutions. Cars are not citizens, and traffic is not a natural object.

were 20 years on looking for solutions! bar mr sweetman and lots of expence/time/and late comers this is the solution:)

topper75

Clareman - having looked through the thread, I can only conclude you are referring to what I posted at the top, particularly where I stand with Peter Sweetman. I don't want to upset any apple carts with Boards so go ahead and delete anything you deem to be libelous (can't see what to be honest - the guy has taken many cases against decisions made by democratically elected reps and those were mostly stopping infrastructure development - this is all on record).
Notwithstanding any libel issue, this threat to the bridge going ahead is an important one to those in East Clare so maybe we can refer to the 'objection lodged' and refrain from references to the individual who lodged it if you believe it to be that sensitive.

Iwannahurl

topper75 wrote: »

The will of a sovereign people is supreme - more important than any law - EU or otherwise. That is my core belief as a democrat.

One for the Legal Discussion forum, or Philosophy perhaps.

The "will of a sovereign people" gave us EU membership (along with domestic realities such as FF dominance for decades and individuals like Charlie Haughey, Bertie Ahern, Ray Burke and Michael Lowry).

The local authority, Bord Pleanala and High Court all made their decisions on the Galway Bypass. The Supreme Court referred matters of EU law to the ECJ, and their ruling now has to take precedence, presumably.

The same process may well apply to the Killaloe situation, unless of course the recent ECJ ruling indicates otherwise.

Clareman

If I was directing the warning at1 poster I would have either said the username or I would have pm'd the poster, my warning was directed at everyone

SWEETIEP

I require an apology from topper75 with his/her full identity

Lady Chatterton

This thread has been reviewed and a decision has been made to re-open it. Please stay on topic and refrain from making personalised comments. Any breach of this will result in an immediate ban.

With regard to the request for the release of information - please be advised that under the Data Protection Act 1988 Boards.ie are prohibited from releasing the identity or personal information of any poster without first receiving an order from a senior member of An Garda Siochana or the courts.

BnB

topper75 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/environmentalist-challenges-permission-for-killaloe-bypass-1.1392109



I see with some alarm that the Sweetman guy who has been holding the future of long-suffering Galway city to ransom in recent years has now stuck his oar in to a development that residents of East Clare recognise as crucial to a sustainable future. To my mind, people like that are an enemy, not just of human progress, but of democracy. The habitats he expresses concern for are not unique in either the Galway or Killaloe context. We are talking about the river Shannon - it is not like any swan, otter etc. displaced by the bridge will have difficulty seeking a new abode nearby. I look forward to seeing his nonsense shot down pretty soon.

Agree - 200%

COYI

As a Galway resident I can empathise with the situation that you guys have found yourselves in. I'm not sure about you but when I first delved into the Galway bypass hold-up I couldn't believe the reasons behind it - and to my mind I'm not sure that ordinary people realise just why that project or indeed the Killaloe bypass are held-up.

These are sad days for the west of Ireland for sure. It's hard enough for people to live and work there in the current recession but the stifling of important infrastructure projects will just hasten it's decline.

My hope is that the Sharpston judgement on the Galway bypass will highlight to European Parlimentarians how overly-onerous the Habitats Directive is at present. Nobody would suggest that we commence fracking for gas in the Burren but what has been imposed upon us by Europe is the other extreme. An extreme where a simple tarred road cannot be built to improve the quality of peoples everyday lives.

periodictable

Do a Thatcher-build away and give Europe the 2 fingers. If they threaten us, we decide to leave!

dr.fuzzenstein

I have been in a situation myself where I lived in a village in Bavaria just where the A7 motorway ends.
As a result the entire traffic from almost all of northern Europe going to Southern Europe went through our village (3000 inhabitants), this was thousand upon thousands of cars.
It turned a lovely little town into a complete hole, whilst environmentalists and politicians battled it out for prestige, brownie points and getting their name into the papers.
It took 30 years to complete about 7km of motorway, thankfully done and one can only hope built over the graves of some of those eco nutters.
Because the one thing these guys don't give two sh*ts about is people.

dr.fuzzenstein

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/autobahnbau-a7-973094.html

If anyone is interested, this is the article (in German)
In short, for 30 years up to 35000 (yes, thirtyfive THOUSAND) cars and trucks a day drove through this village with a population of 3500. I've seen it, imagine taking an extremely busy motorway and routing all of it through a tiny village.
It demonstrates that there are eco nazis out there who will care about some snail or some kind of greenery that may or may not exist somewhere near a village and will be affected to some degree or not at all most likely.
To them it's nothing but a personal trophy hunt that they where able to hold up something that they have taken a personal dislike to and, due to too much time and money on their hands, can dedicate their life to it.
Don't forget, there is really not a scrap of untouched nature left in Ireland, it's all just fields and forest, all man made, so I don't see anything that could be called virgin and pristine nature that must be preserved at all costs, no more special and unique than my lawn. Ity may all look pleasant and green, but the original woodland and bogs of Ireland are gone, replaced by managed fields and forest.
And what do you do to fields and forests once they they are ready to be harvested? Well, in Ireland they get completely stripped bare to the soil, so it's a bit rich worrying about a road.

topper75

Fantastic decision from the High Court today. Delighted!

It now goes to tender. The end of a lot of misery.

gctest50

COYI wrote: »

As a Galway resident I can empathise with the situation that you guys have found yourselves in. I'm not sure about you but when I first delved into the Galway bypass hold-up I couldn't believe the reasons behind it - and to my mind I'm not sure that ordinary people realise just why that project or indeed the Killaloe bypass are held-up...........

He's probably just looking for a bit of work on this, like the Galway Harbour job

"It’s the classic case of poacher turned gamekeeper. A serial objector to large-scale infrastructural developments, Peter Sweetman has been hired by Galway Harbour as a consultant to advise it on how best to secure planning approval for its ambitious expansion plans."

BnB

topper75 wrote: »

Fantastic decision from the High Court today. Delighted!

It now goes to tender. The end of a lot of misery.

Really great news for Killaloe and Ballina. While it is atrocious that 1 person could hold so many to ransom for so long for no reason whatsoever, at least it is over now and the people of Killaloe and Ballina can start looking forward to getting their town back from Traffic.

The Killaloe side was never as badly effected because at least you could go around the town and avoid the bridge traffic if you weren't crossing it. But the Ballina side was a real pain in the butt because you couldn't pass from one side of the village to the other without getting caught up in the traffic trying to get across the bridge.

As far as I know it is going to come from the Nenagh cross (before Larkins) on the Ballina side and you will come across the back of St Annes and out onto the old Limerick Road. And from there, is there a road to go up around Killaloe to bring you out somewhere around Ballyvalley on the Scarriff road....?

Pages 15 & 16 of the document below seems to show this, but I'm not sure if it is the latest version.

http://www.clarecoco.ie/roads-and-transport/publications/killaloe-bypass-shannon-bridge-crossing-and-r494-improvement-volume-1-11283.pdf

topper75

BnB wrote: »

...

As far as I know it is going to come from the Nenagh cross (before Larkins) on the Ballina side and you will come across the back of St Annes and out onto the old Limerick Road. And from there, is there a road to go up around Killaloe to bring you out somewhere around Ballyvalley on the Scarriff road....?

That is correct from my understanding.

Lady Chatterton

Looks like Sweetman is planning to appeal the decision :mad:

philstar

where does Sweetman live?

Cookiemunster

philstar wrote: »

where does Sweetman live?

Bunahowen in North West Co. Galway. He's a serial objector who's well known for objecting to road projects.

philstar

where does he get the money for all these high court objections??

Kristopherus

philstar wrote: »

where does Sweetman live?

He had an address in Rossport, Co Mayo, when he stuck his nose into the Corrib Gas Project.