Dublin-Belfast Rail Passengers "plummet"

Jamie2k9

http://www.herald.ie/news/fears-for-dublinbelfast-rail-link-as-passenger-numbers-plummet-29266005.html

Brendan White – 14 May 2013 02:00 PM

THE Dublin to Belfast rail service is facing "death by a thousand cuts" and needs a €520m investment, it has been claimed. Plummeting passenger numbers have caused fears for the viability of the service

(Snip -- please only post a small bit of articles!)

IMO the article is a little over the top, 240,000 decline isn't that bad over 10 years.

Losty Dublin

A quiet news day in Sir AP's sub-tabloid organ for this story to get its summer airing.

bk

A 25% decline in passenger numbers from 10 years ago is very concerning.

Specially when you consider that terrorism up North was a much bigger concern back then, travelling to the North should be much higher today then it was 10 years ago.

I'd love to see figures of modal share percentages on the route today, versus 10 years ago. I'm guessing the situation would look much worse.

I expect the Cork route will end up looking the same, with similar upgrade costs needed in order to keep it competitive.

_Kaiser_

bk wrote: »

A 25% decline in passenger numbers from 10 years ago is very concerning.

Specially when you consider that terrorism up North was a much bigger concern back then, travelling to the North should be much higher today then it was 10 years ago.

I'd love to see figures of modal share percentages on the route today, versus 10 years ago. I'm guessing the situation would look much worse.

I expect the Cork route will end up looking the same, with similar upgrade costs needed in order to keep it competitive.

But ask yourself for a minute, why is it surprising really?

- There's a Motorway all the way
- Trains aren't cheap & inconvenient to get to if you don't live along the route
- We're in a recession = less money for social excursions plus the exchange rate isn't what it once was.
- Business travel isn't what it used to be either what with decent broadband in both cities now and options like VOIP, Skype/Lync etc for meetings. Also expenses and travel have been cut back too in most places
- The explosion of suburban shopping centres means going North for stuff only happens at Xmas and then because of the above point on the exchange rate, has been reduced as well

To sum up, unless you have a NEED to go to Belfast these days (which as above has been reduced in lots of ways), then why would you?

bk

Kaiser2000 everything you say is correct.

That is why I'd rather see total traveller figures (rail + road + air) for today and ten years ago, plus modal share percentages for today and 10 years ago.

It would be far more instructive and would give a better indicator of what is happening.

If some of the things you say are true and fundamentally make it less necessary to travel (internet tools like Skyp, etc., suburban shopping, amazon, etc.) then that would bring into question if it would even make sense to invest further in rail.

dudara

I went to Belfast recently for a weekend (by car). In the main square, I saw a man being attacked, with kicks to the head. We got back in the car and left. Belfast has bigger issues, that go beyond the train line to Belfast.

Richard Logue

bk wrote: »

If some of the things you say are true and fundamentally make it less necessary to travel (internet tools like Skyp, etc., suburban shopping, amazon, etc.) then that would bring into question if it would even make sense to invest further in rail.

Only if the powers that be had a complete vendetta against any rail travel between the two cities which is unlikely.

I would also point out that while we are in a depression now, if and when the roads start to get clogged up again we will curse the day we decided to not invest further in rail travel between the two cities.

Captain Chaos

dudara wrote: »

I went to Belfast recently for a weekend (by car). In the main square, I saw a man being attacked, with kicks to the head. We got back in the car and left. Belfast has bigger issues, that go beyond the train line to Belfast.

You can see that in Dublin any night of the week. It happens in any big city.

devnull

Well I've never seen anything like that happen in Belfast and I've been there three times since the turn of the year, one isolated incident doesn't make a whole city bad, I've seen violence in Dublin City center on occasions like that too.

dudara

This was middle of the day, lunchtime. Scary thing is that no-one intervened. Seemed all too regular.

Look at the last year of unrest in the city. There is a definite reluctance to go there for recreational purposes, particularly if you're a Southerner. The above article mentions economic crashes, rail bridge collapses, but it doesn't take sectarian factors into account.

_Kaiser_

bk wrote: »

If some of the things you say are true and fundamentally make it less necessary to travel (internet tools like Skyp, etc., suburban shopping, amazon, etc.) then that would bring into question if it would even make sense to invest further in rail.

I work for a large multinational with offices in both the US and the pacific. Virtually all of our work is done via email or Lync IM/calls/meetings. With the exception of some of the directors, most people are based firmly in the office (or at home!)

Sure I don't even go to the supermarket for my weekly shopping anymore.. I order it online and have it delivered. As well as saving me the hassle of parking, overcrowded shopping centres and diesel costs, it cuts down significantly on my impulse buying as I can see the total before I click Checkout

Travel is time-consuming and costly and becoming increasingly unnecessary I think in the age of the average person being familiar and comfortable with these tools, online shopping etc

Stheno

6 years ago I used take the train to Belfast for work from Dublin/Drogheda as my timetable was flexible.

Now I need to be in Belfast at 9am and there is no train service to accomodate that, I think the earliest train gets in about 9:30

So instead every 8-10 weeks, I spend a week driving up and down to Belfast.

Richard Logue

The fact that the train doesn't get into Belfast before 9am is a big weakness in the service. Bus Eireann do offer earlier buses into the Europa Bus station but really there should be an Enterprise that gets into Central or better still Great Victoria Street at 830 am or earlier. That way it then becomes possible to commute by train between Dublin and Belfast, not that I would recommend it!

devnull

That is indeed a bit weakness in my view, I know a while ago some people I worked with were unhappy that such a train was not available.

Sure there are Aircoach and Bus Eireann/Ulster Bus who operate a bus around the clock (although the BE one stops in a few places slowing it down rather than direct like Aircoach), but most business commuters would prefer a train I think.

Does anyone have a link to the actual report? I can't track it down anywhere.

Why do they propose electrification? It is possible to achieve speeds up to 200 km/h or 125 m.p.h. without the extra cost involved in electrification.

bk

Kaiser2000 your points are interesting here and probably should be discussed in it's own thread as it effects intercity travel in general, in all its forms (road, rail, air, etc.)

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I work for a large multinational with offices in both the US and the pacific. Virtually all of our work is done via email or Lync IM/calls/meetings. With the exception of some of the directors, most people are based firmly in the office (or at home!)

Me too, in fact I'm the only person on my team in Ireland, all the rest are in the US and spread across Europe and Asia.

Despite this we manage to get massive amounts of work done and only meet for a few days once a year.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Sure I don't even go to the supermarket for my weekly shopping anymore.. I order it online and have it delivered. As well as saving me the hassle of parking, overcrowded shopping centres and diesel costs, it cuts down significantly on my impulse buying as I can see the total before I click Checkout

Yup, me too.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Travel is time-consuming and costly and becoming increasingly unnecessary I think in the age of the average person being familiar and comfortable with these tools, online shopping etc

Agreed and this may have a big impact on the governments priorities should it continue to heavily invest in rail and road or not?

Richard Logue

bk I agree, this is a good topic to discuss.

KenGriffin

dudara wrote: »

Look at the last year of unrest in the city. There is a definite reluctance to go there for recreational purposes, particularly if you're a Southerner.

I must be extremely lucky. I have been living in the Greater Belfast Area for the past two years and I haven't been involved in or seen the slightest bit of trouble. I even do my shopping in the Unionist/Loyalist stronghold of Carrickfergus.

There are still quite a few dodgy areas in Belfast but the same thing applies in Dublin. The only difference is the criminals up here claim to be advancing some form of ideological cause.

strongback

I remember the Enterprise during the boom and it was absolutely wedged with commuters, finding a place to stand comfortably was not straight forward. The number of commuters could have dropped by 25% alone considering the serious job losses that have taken place in the last 6 years.


I have to agree with the person that felt Belfast can be aggressive. I lived there for a few years in the 1990's when there was a lot of tension at times. I have been back a few times recently and noticed things are a bit more relaxed but I have also seen an ugly aggressive side to the place including fights. The undercurrent of sectarianism is never too far from the surface. It's alright the politicians getting along but the communities still have a long way to go in my view.

Jamie2k9

bk wrote: »

A 25% decline in passenger numbers from 10 years ago is very concerning.

Specially when you consider that terrorism up North was a much bigger concern back then, travelling to the North should be much higher today then it was 10 years ago.

I'd love to see figures of modal share percentages on the route today, versus 10 years ago. I'm guessing the situation would look much worse.

I expect the Cork route will end up looking the same, with similar upgrade costs needed in order to keep it competitive.

BK if you think that number is a concern then you havn't saw the decline on other IE routes.

2007 was peak year for most Irish Rail routes an between 2007-2011 the following number of passengers have being lost.
Cork down 576,000 when 2007 and 2011 are compared
Waterford down 280,000 passengers
Galway down 609,000 passengers

All info from 2030 report but Belfast line has held up very well if the above numbers are considered. Would be good if we know the 2012 numbers.

Mech1

I would drive to Belfast maybe 3 times a year, the new road is great, as there is almost nobody else on it !!
Must be the least congested stretch of motorway in Ireland.

dowlingm

NIR has deferred works to bring the line back to a decent speed. Maybe if NIR and IEs parent companies weren't also collaborating in the bus market they might give a crap about improving things. This 125mph electric stuff is bullsh!t because it's designed to give a sticker shock large enough to make people forget about much more affordable improvements which will bring a large proportion of the benefits. Hard to take the notion of 125mph from two companies who are okay with 75mph commuter stock subbing for Enterprise rather than 22000s which can reach 90mph in whatever bits and pieces that is still possible on.

As for 9am in Belfast, there's a train which leaves Newry at 0655 arriving 0806. If IE gave a stuff about making such travel feasible they would find a way to get the train which operates the 0645 Newry-0835 Connolly to run from Connolly in service rather than Dundalk yard or wherever it is now stashed and to deal with signal/track occupancy issues in Newry.

_Kaiser_

Mech1 wrote: »

I would drive to Belfast maybe 3 times a year, the new road is great, as there is almost nobody else on it !!
Must be the least congested stretch of motorway in Ireland.

Nah I'd say that honor goes to the M8 .. or the M3 beyond Navan.

Kumsheen

I think the motorway is the biggest factor in the decline, it's just a doddle to drive to Belfast these days and not tiring at all. You can easily drive and still be fresh for whatever business you have to do, that is the key factor.

I can't see an upgrade in speed making much of a difference, the cities are just too close together and a large chunk of the trip is through the congested north Dublin commuter line.

I think IR should focus on this more lucrative commuter business and try and make improvements to keep it competitive with the improving alternatives available.

ballooba

devnull wrote: »

Well I've never seen anything like that happen in Belfast and I've been there three times since the turn of the year, one isolated incident doesn't make a whole city bad, I've seen violence in Dublin City center on occasions like that too.

Too right...
http://www.herald.ie/news/cctv-reveals-the-full-horror-on-henry-street-28008961.html

LordSutch

My impression is that the novelty has worn off!

Ten years ago the peace process was bedding in nicely, and people were openly being encouraged to travel North to see the peace and to see the sights and sounds of Belfast/Northern Ireland. The Enterprise was new & sexy back then, it was different, and you could travel on it, knowing that when you got into Belfast you would be in a peaceful shopping environment.

Ten years later > the novelty has definately worn off, & the journey is just too expensive.

highlydebased

As a "southerner" who has been to Belfast countless times over the last couple of years I've never felt anything but welcome. To me it's a little bit like people saying they wouldn't visit Limerick in case they got stabbed. I'm sure if you wander into the right area of Belfast or indeed Limerick you'll find the trouble you're looking for

1/2 times I've taken the Enterprise it has been wedged, but then the other half I could be one of a dozen in the carriage.

The trains are very tired at this stage and in need of some TLC.

Michael D Not Higgins

Deleted User wrote: »

It is possible to achieve speeds up to 200 km/h or 125 m.p.h. without the extra cost involved in electrification.

Not with the current 201s to the best of my knowledge

dowlingm

The train stock would be the least of the problems. Track capacity between Malahide and Drogheda would be first off, plus similar issues in NI, plus cab signalling and as many grade crossing eliminations as you could possibly do, particularly in skanger territories.

I'd presume that the DD being spawned of reasonably high speed stock would be good for 100 if the track and motive power was. Given the current state of affairs I'd rather do an equipment swap between Heuston and Connolly with first class 22Ks going one way and DDs the other. No 201s north of Fairview would concentrate resources and the distributed power of the 22s would probably make for better times in the speed limited bits of the Enterprise run.

Of course when 22Ks are cleared for service running to NI including sufficient crewing, the last technical excuse why Ulster-Munster games can't have direct trains from Limerick-Belfast or vice versa goes away

Jamie2k9

dowlingm wrote: »

The train stock would be the least of the problems. Track capacity between Malahide and Drogheda would be first off, plus similar issues in NI, plus cab signalling and as many grade crossing eliminations as you could possibly do, particularly in skanger territories.

I'd presume that the DD being spawned of reasonably high speed stock would be good for 100 if the track and motive power was. Given the current state of affairs I'd rather do an equipment swap between Heuston and Connolly with first class 22Ks going one way and DDs the other. No 201s north of Fairview would concentrate resources and the distributed power of the 22s would probably make for better times in the speed limited bits of the Enterprise run.

Of course when 22Ks are cleared for service running to NI including sufficient crewing, the last technical excuse why Ulster-Munster games can't have direct trains from Limerick-Belfast or vice versa goes away

Your pushing it saying there are first class ICR's.....I can't see there being high demand for first class services with the current economic conditions.

dowlingm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Your pushing it saying there are first class ICR's.....I can't see there being high demand for first class services with the current economic conditions.

Merely replacing the accommodation currently existing (although as far as I understand the DD accommodation is a bit nicer)

Sick to death of the economic conditions thing being rolled out all the time. You only have to look at RTE's disclosure to know that people are still coining it - not hundreds of thousands but markets still have niches. The current schedule isn't enough to pull in business traffic which is sensitive to hanging around waiting so clearly any such plan would have to include clockfacing and thus more than the three sets NIR and IE are currently bothered to deploy. Dublin-Belfast-Dublin is currently 332km - I wonder how much the state is still paying in mileage claims for civil servants who could be diverted to public transport?

TheDB

dudara wrote: »

I went to Belfast recently for a weekend (by car). In the main square, I saw a man being attacked, with kicks to the head. We got back in the car and left. Belfast has bigger issues, that go beyond the train line to Belfast.

I lived in Belfast for two years, it's a great city. If you want to talk about problems, then look no further than the area around BusÁras and Connolly. I never took the train btw, more expensive, and the bus offers you a return ticket which you can use whenever you want.

Jamie2k9

dowlingm wrote: »

Merely replacing the accommodation currently existing (although as far as I understand the DD accommodation is a bit nicer)

Sick to death of the economic conditions thing being rolled out all the time. You only have to look at RTE's disclosure to know that people are still coining it - not hundreds of thousands but markets still have niches. The current schedule isn't enough to pull in business traffic which is sensitive to hanging around waiting so clearly any such plan would have to include clockfacing and thus more than the three sets NIR and IE are currently bothered to deploy. Dublin-Belfast-Dublin is currently 332km - I wonder how much the state is still paying in mileage claims for civil servants who could be diverted to public transport?

What I mean is if the services was good and quick there would be no need for first class as what the ICR's offer is fine and most business users will be happy with it. 6am from Cork has lost its first class (we don't see business passengers not using it because of it), people just deal with it so I don't see why its needed. Good cost and speed is what people want.

BenShermin

TheDB wrote: »

I lived in Belfast for two years, it's a great city. If you want to talk about problems, then look no further than the area around BusÁras and Connolly.

I have to agree with you, I've been up to Belfast very frequently over the last few years and I've never seen an ounce of trouble in the "neutral" city centre. The agressive begging by drug addicts in Dublin City Centre is much worse IMO.

One needs to air on the side of caution in the suburbs though. I stay in a lovely b&b off the Antrim road when I'm up there, during the day it's grand, but at night I've often been glad I opted for a bus or taxi home that passed the sectarian problems.

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

The train stock would be the least of the problems. Track capacity between Malahide and Drogheda would be first off, plus similar issues in NI, plus cab signalling and as many grade crossing eliminations as you could possibly do, particularly in skanger territories.

I'd presume that the DD being spawned of reasonably high speed stock would be good for 100 if the track and motive power was. Given the current state of affairs I'd rather do an equipment swap between Heuston and Connolly with first class 22Ks going one way and DDs the other. No 201s north of Fairview would concentrate resources and the distributed power of the 22s would probably make for better times in the speed limited bits of the Enterprise run.

Irish Rail never used Mark 3's on the Belfast line as the sections north of the border barely were fit for 100KM, let along 100MPH, so the lower speed mark 2's sufficed without losing time. NIR wax lyrical about cutting down time but it will take them rerouting the line, not relaying it.

nordydan

dudara wrote: »

I went to Belfast recently for a weekend (by car). In the main square, I saw a man being attacked, with kicks to the head. We got back in the car and left. Belfast has bigger issues, that go beyond the train line to Belfast.

dudara wrote: »

This was middle of the day, lunchtime. Scary thing is that no-one intervened. Seemed all too regular.

Look at the last year of unrest in the city. There is a definite reluctance to go there for recreational purposes, particularly if you're a Southerner. The above article mentions economic crashes, rail bridge collapses, but it doesn't take sectarian factors into account.

So you turned tail and ran yet you seem to know that these things are all too regular. Very impressive logic there :rolleyes:

For what its worth I've lived in Belfast & Dublin for about 7 years in each city. In Belfast you are more likely to get a row at closing time but no worse that many large towns on the island of Ireland. The junkie problem (thanks to Ballymena) is not anywhere near as prevalent as in Dublin.

As noted in other posts you can drive from Belfast city centre to Dublin city centre in the same time and for a lesser cost. Only the provision of a new high speed line will revive the Enterprise to its former use.

Richard Logue

nordydan wrote: »

So you turned tail and ran yet you seem to know that these things are all too regular. Very impressive logic there :rolleyes:

For what its worth I've lived in Belfast & Dublin for about 7 years in each city. In Belfast you are more likely to get a row at closing time but no worse that many large towns on the island of Ireland. The junkie problem (thanks to Ballymena) is not anywhere near as prevalent as in Dublin.

As noted in other posts you can drive from Belfast city centre to Dublin city centre in the same time and for a lesser cost. Only the provision of a new high speed line will revive the Enterprise to its former use.

I don't think a high speed line will be the reason passenger numbers would rise, that will be down to as and when the Northern and Southern economies improve.

Grandeeod

Richard Logue wrote: »

I don't think a high speed line will be the reason passenger numbers would rise, that will be down to as and when the Northern and Southern economies improve.

I disagree with this. During the Celtic Tiger years, the railways were busy because the economy was booming. The subsidy was manageable too. However this was against a background of a very poor IU road network. Even if/when the economy returns to something positive, the impact of a modern IU road network will still be felt and I don't believe it will lead to any significant rise in passenger numbers. Its also worth pointing out that a return to a growth rate as seen during the Celtic Tiger era is highly unlikely so we may never see the massive rail passenger numbers that we experienced then.

strongback

I've lived in Dublin and Belfast, I've yet to see a bouncer pull a person out of a queue to nightclub, throw them on the ground and boot them in the face ever in Dublin, I saw that it Belfast city centre. I also know a quiet well educated guy who got pulled down Sandy Row and get one of his ears cut off. Another acquaintance attending Queens Uni received over 40 stitches in his face after having a smashed glass shoved into it.

The violence is more extreme in Belfast. Around the shopping and university area there is a bubble of normality. Outside that you need to be careful.

road_high

Captain Chaos wrote: »

You can see that in Dublin any night of the week. It happens in any big city.

Actually always found Belfast really quite compared to Dublin!

the groutch

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

But ask yourself for a minute, why is it surprising really?

- There's a Motorway all the way
- Trains aren't cheap & inconvenient to get to if you don't live along the route
- We're in a recession = less money for social excursions plus the exchange rate isn't what it once was.
- Business travel isn't what it used to be either what with decent broadband in both cities now and options like VOIP, Skype/Lync etc for meetings. Also expenses and travel have been cut back too in most places
- The explosion of suburban shopping centres means going North for stuff only happens at Xmas and then because of the above point on the exchange rate, has been reduced as well

To sum up, unless you have a NEED to go to Belfast these days (which as above has been reduced in lots of ways), then why would you?

throw in the fact that online shopping has exploded, with alot more retailers (especially Amazon) bein prepared to ship over here, and Parcel Motel will only increase people's choice.
there's very little for sale on the Belfast high street that can't be bought online and delivered for your front door for the same price.

corktina

"Dublin-Belfast Rail Passengers "plummet" " wasn't that viaduct again was it? :-)

Hilly Bill

This is a constructive thread, no need for that old horse .

Defiler Of The Coffin

I've lived in Belfast now for over two years and not once have I bothered taking the train to Dublin. The bus service is just too handy. The timetable is frequent, buses in both cities leave from a convenient location and the price is right. I feel like I've missed nothing at all by not taking the train. The only thing that would entice me is a major speed increase and even then it wouldn't be a major pull-factor. Reliable broadband would help but I don't know if this is already available.

I imagine the motorway is the main reason for the railway's decline, there always seems to be plenty of Irish-reg cars up there. There's big demand for the airport services also, something the train cannot compete for.

Richard Logue

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

I've lived in Belfast now for over two years and not once have I bothered taking the train to Dublin. The bus service is just too handy. The timetable is frequent, buses in both cities leave from a convenient location and the price is right. I feel like I've missed nothing at all by not taking the train. The only thing that would entice me is a major speed increase and even then it wouldn't be a major pull-factor. Reliable broadband would help but I don't know if this is already available.

I imagine the motorway is the main reason for the railway's decline, there always seems to be plenty of Irish-reg cars up there. There's big demand for the airport services also, something the train cannot compete for.

Of course the Motorway has impacted the railway, but I wouldn't go so far to consider the line in decline, the trains are still busy, certainly not empty. Plenty of customers in the First Class section of the Enterprise who would be very unlikely to rely on the Bus service, which I think serves its purpose well. The bus is cheaper than the train and operates outside hours that the train operates. Perhaps one thing the railways should do would be to offer an early commuter services from both cities that allow travellers to arrive earlier than 9am.

Regarding Airports, Sydenham station on the Bangor line is right next to Belfast City Airport. As you leave the station there is an on-call station shuttle bus that takes you to the terminal building directly. It's about 10-12 minutes from Central to Sydenham. Great Victoria Street Railway Station is next to the Europa Bus station and of course the excellent 300 Bus to the International Airport runs from there every 15 minutes.

There has been some discussion regarding the restoration of the Lisburn-Antrim line which runs right beside the International Airport's perimeter fence. In times past there was a station at Aldergrove near to the present day airport. This could in the future be the basis for a station at the International Airport.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

This is a constructive thread, no need for that old horse .

It's the fault of the Union (ists)

Richard Logue

the groutch wrote: »

throw in the fact that online shopping has exploded, with alot more retailers (especially Amazon) bein prepared to ship over here, and Parcel Motel will only increase people's choice.
there's very little for sale on the Belfast high street that can't be bought online and delivered for your front door for the same price.

Shopping is one aspect, however there remains much cross border business and family traffic. Add into that mix major sporting events or concerts and you then have a large number of people wanting to travel between the two cities.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Richard Logue wrote: »

Of course the Motorway has impacted the railway, but I wouldn't go so far to consider the line in decline, the trains are still busy, certainly not empty. Plenty of customers in the First Class section of the Enterprise who would be very unlikely to rely on the Bus service, which I think serves its purpose well. The bus is cheaper than the train and operates outside hours that the train operates. Perhaps one thing the railways should do would be to offer an early commuter services from both cities that allow travellers to arrive earlier than 9am.

Regarding Airports, Sydenham station on the Bangor line is right next to Belfast City Airport. As you leave the station there is an on-call station shuttle bus that takes you to the terminal building directly. It's about 10-12 minutes from Central to Sydenham. Great Victoria Street Railway Station is next to the Europa Bus station and of course the excellent 300 Bus to the International Airport runs from there every 15 minutes.

There has been some discussion regarding the restoration of the Lisburn-Antrim line which runs right beside the International Airport's perimeter fence. In times past there was a station at Aldergrove near to the present day airport. This could in the future be the basis for a station at the International Airport.

I mainly thinking of Dublin Airport, which I imagine would have more traffic from Belfast than the City Airport would from Dublin. Something the train will probably never be able to service. There is good scope though for properly connecting both Belfast Airports with good train links, would certainly be handier for someone heading from Dublin to Belfast City to take the train and get a quick shuttle out instead of waiting around for the longer shuttle from the Europa!

catrionanic

Im up and down on the enterprise and you'd never guess it, its always rammed (like tonight, there was barely an empty seat on the whole train)

its quite an expensive service to use. twice the price of the bus and only a few mins quicker

Grandeeod

catrionanic wrote: »

its quite an expensive service to use. twice the price of the bus and only a few mins quicker

That's why we see so much debate here about the Bus Vs Train and it's justified.

Michael D Not Higgins

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Not with the current 201s to the best of my knowledge

They can buy something else that'll do the job, but they don't need to electrify the entire line at horrendous and unnecessary cost. That would be a vanity project.