Dogs fines to rise. €100 with new fixed penalty catorgies.

time lord

Swanner wrote: »

Thanks for that. Is the money genuinely ring fenced for this ? If so I would consider getting one. If not I would rather donate directly to the county pound.

The licence fees would only cover a small amount of the running costs of a pound.

DBB

Swanner wrote: »

Thanks for that. Is the money genuinely ring fenced for this ? If so I would consider getting one. If not I would rather donate directly to the county pound.

I would see little point in donating to a State funded facility, to be honest Swanner! In fact, I wouldn't imagine they accept donations, as such! The license fees are certainly *meant* to go towards the running of the pound, but with the incomplete uptake of licenses in many counties, as time lord says, it's unlikely that any pound could run on dog (and horse) licences alone.
If it's donating to a worthy cause you'd like to do, might I suggest your donation is made to one of the many dog rescues who take dogs from pounds in order to rehome them? The pounds are not only State funded, but they do not invest in dogs other than bed and board for the duration of their stay. Whilst the rescues who take dogs from them generally vet-check, neuter, vaccinate, chip, home-check, and provide life-cover for each dog they take out!

DBB

Kukey, you've inspired me to re-send yet another letter to Dublin City Council to clarify exactly what they're at re this legislation: I've asked quite a few times now, but they keep conveniently ignoring me

Kukey

Anyway that list of RB is a joke.My JRT who is brilliant with other dogs has now twice been nearly savaged by two Whippets and a Labrador!! My other dog is a RB and she was on the lead,muzzled while the 2 Whippets chased my JRT & they were not looking to play with her!!Thank God she is a little flyer & the owner managed to grab her dogs before they got at her.Another day I was throwing th ball for her when a Lab ran out of a nearby house & went for her,I managed to pick her up before any harm was done & risked been bitten myself.Another apologetic owner!!Whereas my GSD ignores people and would never go over to another dog,she stays by my side and her only interest is in a ball yet she must be leashed & muzzled when she is in public.Luckily she doesn't mind wearing the muzzle.I asked my son to get me the GSDs muzzle one day & he asked me why does she have to wear it?I told him its because she might bite someone,his answer was but the JRT could bite someone as well and she doesn't have to wear one!!

Kukey

DBB wrote: »

Kukey, you've inspired me to re-send yet another letter to Dublin City Council to clarify exactly what they're at re this legislation: I've asked quite a few times now, but they keep conveniently ignoring me

Let us know how you get on,if of course they get back to you:rolleyes::P

time lord

DBB wrote: »

Kukey, you've inspired me to re-send yet another letter to Dublin City Council to clarify exactly what they're at re this legislation: I've asked quite a few times now, but they keep conveniently ignoring me

Try this route
http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/Information-leaflets/Local-Authorities.pdf

DBB

time lord wrote: »

Try this route
http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/Information-leaflets/Local-Authorities.pdf

Oooh time lord.... you're devious :eek:

I like devious

Inexile

DBB wrote: »

Oooh time lord.... you're devious :eek:

I like devious

If you want to get really devious use the FOI legislation. Ask for all correspondence/documentation they have to support the rationale on including the Belgian Shepard (in its various forms) on their RB list, ask for how many times they have issued warning re same to owners, how many fines they have imposed, etc, etc.

Yes there will be a fee but initially its only €15 or thereabouts. Thereafter they may charge for search and retrival of records and a photocopying fee but they have to give you a quote .

It takes time but can be a useful piece of legislation. if you want more info pm me.

DBB

Oooh, even devious-er :cool:
I had forgotten about FoI, but yes, will certainly go down this route if I'm stone-walled, and would appreciate help if you've experience of it all (I was involved in one before, but it wasn't me who did the contacting)
As a public servant myself, the thought of ignoring a public enquiry horrifies me, so the longer they ignore me, the more peed off I'm going to get!
Thanks time lord and Inexile

ISDW

go Boardsies

Bullseye1

The ignorance among politicians on the issue of RB is depressing. They haven't a clue.

andreac

Kukey wrote: »

They are a "type" of Shepherd so must be muzzled.He got in touch with Dublin Co Council and Dept of Environment and they both said the same thing to him.They are a "type" and must be muzzled in public.He now has a muzzle for his dog.

Well they are wrong.

Belgian SHepherds are their own breed, they arent a shepherd type so therefore do not need to be muzzled.

andreac

Kukey wrote: »

The Control of Dogs Regulations 1998, 5.(1) refers to the list of dogs, while it does not mention Belgian Shepherds it does refer to German Shepherds and refers "to every other strain or cross of every breed or type of dog described in this article"  the important word here is type, a Belgian Shepherd is a type of Shepherd and must be muzzled in a public place.

The above is what the owner was told and resulted in him buying a muzzle for his dog.Surely all the Councils should be all going by the same rules??

There are many type of shepherd dogs, Anatolian Shepherd, Caucasian Shepherd etc etc, so where do they draw the line??

Once they are their own breed and not a cross breed of one of the mentioned ones, they do not need to be muzzled.

The law is a joke and the wardens cannot even tell differences between certain breeds so how they can get away with telling someone to muzzle their dog when they are not on the list is beyond me. They really havent a clue!!

Kukey

andreac wrote: »

Well they are wrong.

Belgian SHepherds are their own breed, they arent a shepherd type so therefore do not need to be muzzled.

If you email Dublin Co Council,Fingalcoco,Dept of Environment they will all tell you that they must be muzzled.They are the ones who are making the law.

snoman

I don't think that they are making the law, only interpreting it - badly it seems, and enforcing it.

mosi

I've heard other people mention that they have been told the Belgian Shepherds are interpreted as RBs. I wonder, as it is not in the legislation (and as they are not a strain or cross of the GSD) if dog wardens apply this due to their own inability to correctly identify breeds.

Another grey area is with regard to mastiff breeds. While the Bullmastiff is on the list, I haven't heard (not to say it doesn't happen) of English, Neaopolitan Mastiffs or DDBs being interpreted to be on it. I'm sure the word "bull" is what got them on the list. However, it seems that other mastiffs may be interpreted as coming under the bandog category. The Boerboel is apparently considered as such.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2010/11/02/00306.asp

BillyMitchel

mosi wrote: »

I've heard other people mention that they have been told the Belgian Shepherds are interpreted as RBs. I wonder, as it is not in the legislation (and as they are not a strain or cross of the GSD) if dog wardens apply this due to their own inability to correctly identify breeds.

Another grey area is with regard to mastiff breeds. While the Bullmastiff is on the list, I haven't heard (not to say it doesn't happen) of English, Neaopolitan Mastiffs or DDBs being interpreted to be on it. I'm sure the word "bull" is what got them on the list. However, it seems that other mastiffs may be interpreted as coming under the bandog category. The Boerboel is apparently considered as such.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2010/11/02/00306.asp

I get it a lot with my Dogo Argentino. People think its a bully breed but it's not. I've only ever been stopped once and I was asked was it PB and I said no that it was a Dogo. Guards didn't have a clue. Said he was nice gave him a pet and went on there way. A few strangers also thought he was meant to be muzzled but nope, wrong again. I'll never muzzle him. Fair enough the EBT went into its make up but that's only a small part and the breed is close to 100 years old at this stage so I'd consider it a breed in its own right.

are you serious

BillyMitchel wrote: »

I get it a lot with my Dogo Argentino. People think its a bully breed but it's not. I've only ever been stopped once and I was asked was it PB and I said no that it was a Dogo. Guards didn't have a clue. Said he was nice gave him a pet and went on there way. A few strangers also thought he was meant to be muzzled but nope, wrong again. I'll never muzzle him. Fair enough the EBT went into its make up but that's only a small part and the breed is close to 100 years old at this stage so I'd consider it a breed in its own right.

The Dogo is recognised as a breed in its own right by the IKC, so you would be correct

JustAThought

Dog warden called toy door Today looking To see my license ; suspect neighbour reported me cos she was chasing their cat let loose night & day to stroll & s* all over the estate). Showed him the license & he gave me the new Fingal Co co leaflet on dog owner responsibilities . It says - new!- that the ideal is that dogs do not go to the toilet in public places at all & should be taught to go only in the garden but that in case of " accidents" you should bring a bag and clean up...

Worrying Trends.

I also noticed last night a
New Sign up on Howth pier -
Leashes dogs Only.

We Should all start Complaining about These new trends towards restricting
Dog users as I hear
The new fCC manager for parks is a dog hating nazi type and wants to bar dogs throughout. This comes from
His staff .

I pay taxes & expect to be able to enjoy & use the same parks & recreational areas as litter dropping people, smokers, drug addicts & travellers; not to mention the parents who let their children just go to the toilet in the woods cos they couldn't be arswd walking Them To the public toilet nearby.

I also expect The Same courtesy to be offered To Me as A Tax Paying citizen as
Those
Extended
To all those in our " society " who contribute nothing & do not have signs & statements fingering Them Out being erected at Every Other Corner.

snoman

I have a rescue dog who might be a Dogue de Bordeaux cross, but is definitely some type of a mastiff cross. Do you think that she should be in a muzzle when out in public? I never have done cos I was told that she didn't need to, but now I'm wondering...

DBB

snoman wrote: »

I have a rescue dog who might be a Dogue de Bordeaux cross, but is definitely some type of a mastiff cross. Do you think that she should be in a muzzle when out in public? I never have done cos I was told that she didn't need to, but now I'm wondering...

It is impossible to say snoman, it really is in the eye of whatever expert witness that might be used in a prosecution against the owner. That'd be the last step in the line though. First, it'd be down to the opinion of the dog warden. If he was to slap a fine on you, and you contested it, it could come down to you going to court. Can the wardens or expert witness proove beyond reasonable doubt that your dog has bullmastiff in there? Without DNA, perhaps not, but then again, the courts will often (not always) go with the evidence of the expert witness.

snoman

So, does a Dogue de Bordeaux purebred have to wear a muzzle? Is this considered a different breed, as opposed to type? Thanks.

DBB

snoman wrote: »

So, does a Dogue de Bordeaux purebred have to wear a muzzle? Is this considered a different breed, as opposed to type? Thanks.

No. The only mastiff on the list is the bullmastiff. So, only crosses or types of bullmastiff (whatever a "type" of bullmastiff is!) are subject to the controls.
Dublin City Council have assured me that they're to revert to the dog wardens to answer my queries re their actions being so divergent from other councils, so I'll let ye all know how it turns out :-)

Edited to add: sorry, I keep getting thrown by the bandog element! Any mastiff could possibly be said to be a bandog, it's a bit of a cover-all that could nobble an owner of any mastiff breed :-(

Bullseye1

It just shows you the silly the list is when the French Mastiff and Argentinian Mastiff are not on the list and less formidable dogs are. The people writing these laws are clueless.

snoman

Bandog. A dog bred for its strength and ferocity by crossing aggressive breeds.

...but that, in theory, could cover any cross breed!!! Except that it sounds like the onus would be on the Dog Warden etc to prove that a dog had been bred for strength and ferocity. It just goes to show that badly worded laws really are worse than no law. Nobody is entirely sure where they stand.

BillyMitchel

Bullseye1 wrote: »

It just shows you the silly the list is when the French Mastiff and Argentinian Mastiff are not on the list and less formidable dogs are. The people writing these laws are clueless.

Why do you think a Dogo Argentino should be on the list? Much experience with the DDB and Dogo then?

Bullseye1

I don't think any dog should be on the list. My point is the French and Argentinian mastiff are much more formidable than some of the dogs on the list yet they are not. The Dogo is a hunting dog which has been used for security and fighting by some element in Argentina. I've friend there who keep them as pets. Striking dogs.

blurch

Does anyone know if the reference to greyhounds (which I will presume include lurchers) is for racers or does it cover pets as well? I run my dogs in Bushy park, where dogs are allowed off the lead at certain times am I now been prevented from doing So?

time lord

blurch wrote: »

Does anyone know if the reference to greyhounds (which I will presume include lurchers) is for racers or does it cover pets as well? I run my dogs in Bushy park, where dogs are allowed off the lead at certain times am I now been prevented from doing So?

I don't think it separates racers.
"Permitting a greyhound, which is not being led by means of a sufficiently strong chain or leash, to be in a public place contrary to section 10 of the Act"

People who enforce such rules in given places should I.m.o. Always leave the door open for the use of their discretion. It's too easy,too much the done thing to retreat behind black and white words on a page. I would take your opinion of your dog heavily into account and then give you a trial welcome at the park if I were its warden/point of contact for rules.

Now if we could just implement on the spot fines for some of the shenanigans the kids get up to out there, this country would be in a better place. Some of them need muzzles also.