ICPSA FITASC Membership Pulled

BaldSparrow

Hi All,
Just a note to all Irish FITASC shooters.
Official contact from FITASC

We inform you that the ICPSA has just been suspended from all its rights as Fitasc member until further notice. In the meantime, the shooters of Irish nationality are entitled to take part to Fitasc championships under Irish nationality but as “Fitasc guest”.

Barrelat75

Another major blow for the sport of clay shooting in Ireland.

"The ICPSA has just been suspended from all it's rights as Fitasc member until further notice".

This must be a cause of major embarassment for the shooters who were due to shoot in the Czech Republic next week.
Surely the time has now come for change at the top table in the organisation!!

Cavan duck buster

Surely is a bad day for clay shooters, any idea until this is revolved?

damanloox

Any idea why? Nothing on ICPSA pages unfortunately...

BaldSparrow

No all the information I have is what is stated above. Somehow I dont think the ICPSA will be posting that on their website.
If I find out any more Info Ill keep you updated

Sparks

Threads merged.

BaldSparrow

FITASC.jpg

Half-cocked

BaldSparrow wrote: »

Somehow I dont think the ICPSA will be posting that on their website.

Yes they have:

http://www.icpsa.ie/notices/50033-fitasc-2.html

Sparks

Half-cocked wrote: »

Yes they have:
http://www.icpsa.ie/notices/50033-fitasc-2.html

So this is down to the international governing bodies having a spat and nothing to do with the national governing bodies then?

BaldSparrow

Half-cocked wrote: »

Yes they have:

http://www.icpsa.ie/notices/50033-fitasc-2.html

I stand corrected. At least they post someting up for once

Half-cocked

Sparks wrote: »

So this is down to the international governing bodies having a spat and nothing to do with the national governing bodies then?

Who knows? It'll all come out in the wash I suppose.

bogmailer

Well regardless the CSI <snip> will milk this although it has nothing to do with the domestic shooting scene </snip>

hunter23

Another Dark day for Clay shooters?

raymo19

CSI had nothing to do with the ICPSA suspension from Fitasc nor do they concern themselves with such matters. If you want to apportion blame I can assure you it wont be hard to find. CSI members are only interested in shooting and want absolotely no association with the political and legal turmoil other shooting organisations thrive upon. Last Sunday 103 guns turned up and totally enjoyed their days shooting in Thurles shooting grounds. Circa 80 new members joined on the day and all from the Munster region. Please leave CSI out of this.

Raymo

damanloox

hunter23 wrote: »

Another Dark day for Clay shooters?

It certainly is a dark day for clay sports in Ireland - irrespective of any "political" association.
FITASC "articles of association" - however stupid it can be - are clear and forbid participation in any other organisation that "practice disciplines which belong to Fitasc). I don't see where ICPSA is to blame here...

raymo19

Fitasc is currently shot in two or three clubs over 50 targets by circa 25 ICPSA members. This is along way from 100 bird fitasc shoots held in Mill Hill & Walshestown with 120 guns upwards from all over the Island in attendance. One of those shoots in Mill Hill had 70 Traps on the course(incredible). George digweed was even in attendance. Hopefully the clubs will come together and buy out the right to hold Fitasc Shoots and create a new beginning for Fitasc, one we all can enjoy.

Raymo

Sparks

So you have a working association and you want to destroy it because...

raymo19

I can assure you I dont have any association there and dont think too many shooters would agree with the comment above. I just love shooting fitasc and would like to see Joe public shooters enjoying fitasc again.

Raymo

Sparks

So if I'm reading FITASC's letter right, joe public can already continue to shoot FITASC, nothing's changed. The international level's got its trousers in a twist, but that'll get sorted, these things always do and they're explicitly saying that no shooter will be inconvenienced in the meantime. But you're saying to leverage that to "buy out" the FITASC rights (as if that was possible) which means setting up a new association.

Seriously, have you ever looked at the rifle side of things? Do you really want to go down the road of having three dozen associations, most of which spend their time squabbling over nothing like nine-year-old siblings? Shotgun's fortunate in that everything's centralised in one place. Trying to disrupt that doesn't strike me as a good approach (and honestly, some of your suggestions thus far, like trying to shut ICPSA down and starting a new body to handle everything, seems to show that you don't know what you're talking about - if you did shut the ICPSA down, you'd lose olympic shotgun rights to the NTSA and you wouldn't be able to get them back according to ISSF rules; and the NTSA doesn't want any of that sandwich, thanks).

damanloox

I have to agree with Sparks - ICPSA (though far from ideal) is a solid association. Instead of destroying it I'd rather try to change it if really needed. There's too much politics in Irish shooting sports - and it doesn't help shooters at all.

raymo19

Sparks, I may not know all about shooting but here are a few facts I do know.

The Association could be insolvent within three years. Their auditors made that very clear at the AGM. Things have gotten worse for the association since that. 20 people turned up for a registered sporting shoot last weekend at a club in north county Dublin + suspension by Fitasc this week. The payment of Tribunal costs has yet to be agreed.

The National Executive and nobody else are responsible for the Associations now publicly written about impending failure. That’s stark reality Sparks and the sooner you take that on board the better for you.

Damanloox the majority of shooters tried to bring about change last year but we all know what happened there. It’s such a pity the people who promised their support to the change camp lost their balls and turned coat on the night. They have a lot to answer for and the association is welcome to their continued support.
The Majority of sporting shooters have moved on. One thing that a lot of shooters have commented on is the healing that has already started taking place within shooting.
Friendships have been renewed instead of hiding away in corners being afraid to be “seen” talking to certain shooters. The Leinster league (Original Real or whatever) was a resounding success for all involved. There will be at least 100 guns in Mill Hill next Sunday morning enjoying our sport (Over 14 Stands I hear). There was a cracking day in Thurles last Sunday. I for one am really looking forward to the season.

Lastly Sparks, I would say that if Joe Public/clubs started shooting Fitasc they would end up at the receiving end of Legal letters from the Association regardless of what Fitasc say.

Raymo

bogmailer

Raymo, Although I have been "placed" on the ICPSA side so to speak, I too am saddened by the split in clay shooting and would love to see a reuniting within the sport. But until people accept that an organisation must have rules and procedures, without which it will not be able to operate successfully in the long term, there will continue to be problems. In addition any such organisation needs someone strong to "rule" and while this will cause accusations of bias at times this is the price that needs to be paid to have a stable organisation. You will see these problems emerge within CSI in time as it is not possible to keep everyone happy all the time.

To continually blame a single individual for all the ills of any association is childish in the extreme and I for one refused to support people with little administrative experience and absolutely no plan other than to behead the association. I sat at a meeting where the majority agreed to call for a face to face with the association committee but when questioned from the floor about an agenda for this agreed meeting had not even thought that far ahead.

CHange takes time and need to happen at a slow pace and will never work with people having gut reactions to every development.

raymo19

I wonder who elected you to speak considering your earlier comment about CSI members. Firstly it totally agree with you in relation to rules and procedures being important to ensure the survival of any organisation. Unfortunately the opposite is also true in the case of that association.If the rules and regs are continually interpreted to back up only one persons side of the argument at all times then you will find that rules and regs can become totally detrimental to the continued survival of an organisation as is blatantly the case here.
I don't blame any one individual, I blame the national executiveves mismanagement ( non management) of the affairs of the association. Studies have shown that 95percent of corporate failures are the result of poor management at the top table. This is the case here and all the rules and regs won't change the fact.The total dis- respect shown by one of the employees to the company chairman at the AGM tipifies weak non existent management. Next months edition of shooters digest will be interesting on that front.

Change does indeed take time however that is not a luxury that is being afforded to that association presently. I suggest they do something radical and fast.
Please keep your derrogatory comments about Csi Members to yourself in future.

Raymo

Sparks

Raymo, if you think you can tell people who can and cannot talk about what on here, allow me to disabuse you of that notion before it causes a problem.

biddykelly

Well I have to say Raymo , I think you are wrong there? Is it not true that some CSI members are lobbying looking for the FITASC licence for Ireland? you obviously were not in Thurles last week as there were only 65 guns most of who were already CSI and a lot of them made long journeys to boost the numbers.
None of them were Paul Daniels so it was a good trick pulling 80 new members from the hat?
As the debate is about the ICPSA and FITASC and as you say this has nothing to do with CSI, why as a CSI head are you getting involved then? why are you so fascinated by an association you are not a member of?

raymo19

Great name welcome to boards. I only joined this thread because the self elected Icpsa spokesman called bog mailer made derogatory comments about Csi members earlier. I will try to firm up on the actual thurles shooting numbers later. It is suffice to say that if there were only 65 shooters only in thurles last Sunday that's 65 more shooters shooting Csi events than were shooting for any other organisation in Munster that day. It was surprised to see certain people signing up for Csi. Its a great pity Paul Daniels wasn't shooting sporting in north county Dublin last Sunday. I won't bother going there it's not funny.
It would be great if somebody bought out the fiasc shooting rights so we could all enjoy shooting it again. I can assure you that I have no fascination with that association however it's impossible nowadays to avoid the negative commentary about the association. It's everywhere. As I said earlier the majority of sporting shooters have moved on and couldn't care less about how they conduct their affairs. Perhaps they would do us all a favour and conduct their affairs in private and cease being the source of embarrassment to the rest of Irish Shooters.

Raymo 19

damanloox

This thread is becoming a political war I'm afraid (and I'm not surprised considering what has been happening over past few years...). I'm not on any side (I've been shooting both - ICPSA and CSI. I enjoyed both. I may not see high-level picture but I will repeat as a maniac - don't destroy. It will takes ages to rebuild... But that's just my humble opinion and you're welcome to ignore it completely

raymo19

I just checked the CSI website on the results page. I roughly counted 64 singular entries in the sporting competition. I counted at least 25 trap shooters that competed in that competition alone and didn't shoot the sporting competition. There were several new shooters/guests introduced to the sport on the day whom shot under day insurance. Most entrants in the Trap competition were new entrants to the CSI. About six existing members traveled down to support the event(Contrary to Biddys heresay). Therefore the majority of the scores in the sporting competition were from people who signed on the day. As I said earlier over a 100 guns enjoyed a great days shooting from nearly dawn to dusk. Circa 80 new members and most importantly a much needed boost for clay pigeon shooting in the Munster region. www.claysportsirl.ie

Raymo.

superlite

Leaving all the bickering aside and getting back to the issue, where I feel it's embarrassing for Irish international shooters not being able to compete on an equal status and as a guest, I for one could not feel the pride you should feel at an event, representing your country and would not attend.
While this is the case and unfair as it may seem I feel that the response of getting solicitors involved at an early stage is a bit aggressive.
I may be naive on these matters but are the executive not in a position to mediate with the fitasc executive to try and clear up any misunderstanding, or has this already happened and if there has been prior correspondence, why are we now at a stage involving a solicitor.

bogmailer

Hi Raymo,

It's me again. I'm afarid I am not a spokesperson for anyone, jus throwing in my tuppence worth. Last time I looked at Bunracht na hÉireann the free speech bit was still there.

What puzzles me somewhat is the constant reference to mismanagement within an organisation. What I don't see mentioned are specifics of this so-called mismanagement. Leaving aside "the incident" what exactly was amiss in the management of sporting shoots, formulation of a calendar, issuing of notices, posting of results, etc. Last year I had an enjoyable year shooting excellent sporting shoots at a variety of great grounds from a full calendar. I am not trying to be petulant here, but in all honesty no-one has been able to tell me exactly what the problem with sporting shooting was in the last 2 years or so..... or maybe I'm missing something, like maybe a power grab motivated by money and prestige.

Looking forward to your detailed post on the SPECIFIC instances of this mismanagement of which you speak. :-)

raymo19

You placed yourself on the Icpsa side so to speak, nobody else, you did. You are of course entitled to freespeech but insulting Csi members in that manner is just typical of the arrogance displayed by those in control of that association. (Perhaps you are).

I would be here for a week if I was to hi-light all the examples of mismanagement of that association but I will hi-light their biggest failure as being their inability/failure to manage the single full time employee of the association. We all remember the statement about the three ways things happen within the association My way, my way & my way. That display of arrogance was very closely followed by the "incident" I rest my case.

In case you were not aware of these websites have a real good look at them tomorrow morning and closely examine the results being posted for Ballinasloe yesterday and Mill Hill thismorning.www.claysportsirl.ie & www.claytargetevents.ie resp.

Shooters en mass have moved on. Barriers created by the association are being torn down as we speak. There is a real air of freshness returning to the shooting in general. People are talking and laughing again. I too have moved on and only got involved in this thread because you bogmailer for no reason atall decided to insult Csi shooters. I really have no further comment to make. I just want to enjoy my shooting as does everyone else. Cyber Wave !!!!!!!!.

Raymo 19