ICPSA FITASC Membership Pulled

biddykelly

Thank you raymo I see the results that are on the site now. Sorry. I beter say sorry or I will get the same treatment as bogmailer for daring to speak out. That must be the biggest crowd Thurles had since they were put out of ICPSA six years ago. Just out of interest is one 100 birder equal to two 50 birders. And I looked at the names and there is a lot more than 6 made 100km trips to boost the numbers.

I see you did not answer my question. Is it true some CSI members are lobbying looking for the FITASC licence for Ireland? And as you are the (un)official spokesman here for csi you surely know or is a secret in the air of freshness blowing across you part of the sport.

Do you attack bogmailer because in your mind he said something about csi or is it for saying something positive on the ICPSA. So in your world you attack him for saying something about csi but it is ok for you to attack the ICPSA. An association you admit is not yours. Look up hypocrit in the dictionary.

The person who started the thread said in an earlier post that is now deleted (???) he is the secretary of a rival to the ICPSA. So his motives for starting this thread are???? If the majority has moved on and couldnt care less about the ICPSA like you say then why do a few of you spend so much time talking about the ICPSA?

I might have missed them but why are the mill hill results not on the csi site? Is there a split in the split already?

Bogmailer listed some of the positives of the ICPSA. We have loads of time here so why are you not listing all the faults in the ICPSA. Surely it is not too hard for you. Or are you stuck on one person and one incident.

It is sad that people will be making a trip this week and will not be allowed to represent their country. Some people are trying to make hay from this and shame on them. And I wonder has superlite ever attended one of these events or represented his country. If not then it is easy for him to say he would not attend?

Cass

To avoid having this thread edited, closed or deleted please leave the personal comments out of it.

Keep on topic, and on point. Any further insulting or personal comments will result in infractions, and deletions. If it persists the thread will be closed.

How it proceeds is now up to you.

biddykelly wrote: »

The person who started the thread said in an earlier post that is now deleted (???)

For clarification purposes.

There are no deleted posts in this thread, and the only post by the OP that was edited was the first/opening post which i edited to change the font of it. Not edit the content.

bogmailer

Well Raymo,

Your reply was pretty much as I expected. Just a general rant about a "that really bad man" who is "like, really bad" and not a single detail of a specific instance of where this "mismanagement" caused inconvenience to shooters actually shooting.

Face up to it - you are part of a putsch which is using the "Axis of Evil" tactic to stir up dissent within a well run organisation which enforces a set of rules in the interest of the general membership in order to nurture a sport in all areas not just in one club.

Raymo, unless I hear more detail and less "he's just like evil" I will remain uncinvinced.

Btw doncha think you might be ye might be swapping Hitler for Stalin......watch this space!!!!

Half-cocked

Yes, how about some concrete examples of 'mismanagement' please? Not liking somebody does not equal mismanagement. I remember all this going on before back around 2004/5 with all sorts of vague accusations of corruption and mismanagement being made, but no one could ever pinpoint any real examples of it.

superlite

biddykelly wrote: »

Thank you raymo I see the results that are on the site now. Sorry. I beter say sorry or I will get the same treatment as bogmailer for daring to speak out. That must be the biggest crowd Thurles had since they were put out of ICPSA six years ago. Just out of interest is one 100 birder equal to two 50 birders. And I looked at the names and there is a lot more than 6 made 100km trips to boost the numbers.

I see you did not answer my question. Is it true some CSI members are lobbying looking for the FITASC licence for Ireland? And as you are the (un)official spokesman here for csi you surely know or is a secret in the air of freshness blowing across you part of the sport.

Do you attack bogmailer because in your mind he said something about csi or is it for saying something positive on the ICPSA. So in your world you attack him for saying something about csi but it is ok for you to attack the ICPSA. An association you admit is not yours. Look up hypocrit in the dictionary.

The person who started the thread said in an earlier post that is now deleted (???) he is the secretary of a rival to the ICPSA. So his motives for starting this thread are???? If the majority has moved on and couldnt care less about the ICPSA like you say then why do a few of you spend so much time talking about the ICPSA?

I might have missed them but why are the mill hill results not on the csi site? Is there a split in the split already?

Bogmailer listed some of the positives of the ICPSA. We have loads of time here so why are you not listing all the faults in the ICPSA. Surely it is not too hard for you. Or are you stuck on one person and one incident.

It is sad that people will be making a trip this week and will not be allowed to represent their country. Some people are trying to make hay from this and shame on them. And I wonder has superlite ever attended one of these events or represented his country. If not then it is easy for him to say he would not attend?

Hi biddy,
Without getting into a spat with you, I think it is grossly unfair that the Irish team be unable to represent there country, and yes it is easy for me to say as its an easy decision for me to make due to the circumstances. Would you shoot the fitasc venue if you where the only member of the issf sanctioned for the issf running fitasc events.
Also if I were in a position of the executive I would be in touch personally with fitasc and issf to sort this out, how long is it going on now, and why is it taking this long to sort out. I'm sure fitasc didn't ban Ireland on a whim.

Half-cocked

superlite wrote: »

Also if I were in a position of the executive I would be in touch personally with fitasc and issf to sort this out.

Hi Superlite, I think you are confusing the ISSF with the ICTSF, that is where the difficulty is. Do you know for a fact that the ICPSA has not been talking to FITASC about this? Also, it's not just the ICPSA in trouble, I hear from some English CPSA members that there is trouble looming between the BICTSF and FITASC, no details yet but watch this space....

raymo19

Yes that was the first big crowd in Thurles in six years but it it’s safe to say that they won’t be six years waiting for their next crowd. A-lot of people did travel in excess of 100 Km as Munster is a huge province. Lots of people travelled over 100 km’s to support the shoot in Ballinasloe on Saturday and to Mill Hill on Sunday. In Thurles last week there was a 50 bird sporting shoot running simultaneous to a 50 bird trap shoot and there were over 150 entries on the day over the two competitions.
I can’t answer your question about Csi members lobbying Fitasc, I really don’t know. I can’t speak for other Csi members. I only contributed to this thread as I felt insulted by Bogmailers unprovoked comments about CSI members earlier. Fitasc is still the preserve of the ICPSA and is future as an ICPSA discipline lies in the hands of the association’s legal team presently. It would be great for all involved if they could detail what exactly happened in relation to Fitasc. Superlite is obviously still a member and has the right to know. I suspect all you will hear is the impending court case mantra we were all so used to.
Mill Hill CPC are not a Csi club however Mill Hill members are (as are all CAI & Nargc members) more than welcome to attend the Open/Csi shoot at Naul CPC next Sunday over 100 targets and the first 50 counting toward the Csi summer league.
I have re- read this thread and I fail to see any of the positives that Bogmailer has listed.
Bogmailer/ Halfcocked In relation to Mismanagement of that association I suggest you make contact with the association and ask for a copy of the Atlantic report on the Review of corporate governance and have a really good read. Ask them why it is not publicly available for download on their website. Most importantly ask them if any of that report’s findings have been implemented?. If the findings were implemented, why is that association in its current predicament?.
I didn’t hear anything from anyone in relation to a certain employees comments about the three ways things happen within the association, My Way , My Way And My Way ?. Did that go over your heads or have you stuck heads in the ground on the matter and is the association’s usual response.
I will say this again. I have moved on as have most clay shooters. I have no intention been drawn into a tit for tat with a couple of individuals who seem totally uninformed about the association they purport to represent. This is so symptomatic of being kept in the dark for too long. This is the last post I will be making as I starting to feel as though I’m banging my head against a wall.
Raymo 19.

Half-cocked

raymo19 wrote: »

Bogmailer/ Halfcocked In relation to Mismanagement of that association I suggest you make contact with the association and ask for a copy of the Atlantic report on the Review of corporate governance and have a really good read. Ask them why it is not publicly available for download on their website. Most importantly ask them if any of that report’s findings have been implemented?. If the findings were implemented, why is that association in its current predicament?.

I remember that report. The reinstatement of Irish Sports Council funding was dependant on it being implemented. Given that the ICPSA has been getting ISC funding for the last few years, they must have been implemented? I don't know if there is a link to the report on the website, but plenty of copies were in circulation at the time, I even saw one.

I didn’t hear anything from anyone in relation to a certain employees comments about the three ways things happen within the association, My Way , My Way And My Way ?.

I believe the person who made those comments was not just an ICPSA employee, but a member of the ICTSC top table who's event the comments were made at - the Home Countries Sporting? Some other members of the ICTSC wanted to give the High Gun a silver plated brass medal that cost a tenner. The big bad man who wanted it his way wanted to stick with solid silver medals as appropriate for winning a Home Countries tournament. Typical of some ICPSA members that they then attack him for standing up for the shooters on the ground. But if you think a ST£10 trinket is an appropriate reward for coming top of the score sheet at an international, then yes, he was in the wrong.

So again I will ask, please give us some concrete examples of mismanagement.

Btw doncha think you might be ye might be swapping Hitler for Stalin......watch this space!!!!

Bogmailer, they may have gotten Stalin's entire Politburo too;) I'm off to work now, wonder if the concrete examples will be posted when I get home tonight?

raymo19

An admission at last. So he did make those comments after-all. The following day in Mill Hill he stood up for shooters rights again didn’t he?. The “incident” as you call it occurred.

As you seem to be able to interpret the workings of this man’s mind could you please clarify what he meant by his outburst to the chairman of the association at the AGM. I have a feeling a lot of people might misinterpret these comments as being downright disrespectful of the chair. We can’t have that happening can we?.

If there is a copy of the Atlantic report still lying around perhaps the association would post it to their website so we can draw our own conclusions on whether or not its findings were implemented or not. Maybe it is there already and you could post a Link.

We heard all about the alleged meetings between the association and the Sports Council in the recent AGM revelations in Shooters Digest. It looks like somebody could be telling porkies. Unfortunately we will have to wait for next month’s issue to hear more on that matter.

The association is facing financial failure by the admission of its own auditors. I wonder who could possibly be responsible for that if not the management?.

The Hitler/Stalin taunts aren’t really funny. You guys may think so highly of yourselves and might like to draw that analogy, however don’t kid yourselves as there is no mass murder or genocide here, just a very few power hungry individuals that are quite happy to stand over the destruction of an 80 Yr old institution.

Raymo19.

Sparks

raymo19 wrote: »

An admission at last. So he did make those comments after-all.

Hang on a second there Raymo, fair play now. You seem to have reported those comments completely out of context as if they were representing an onerous dictatorship within the ICPSA; and now it seems they were actually someone demanding that people winning an international event get a trophy that was worth more than €10. Which was taking the side of shooters over bean counters.

That's a bit of a misrepresentation you've indulged in there and it has me wondering what else you're misrepresenting here.

Half-cocked

An admission at last. So he did make those comments after-all. The following day in Mill Hill he stood up for shooters rights again didn’t he?. The “incident” as you call it occurred

Admission? Wasn't there about 200 people there when he said it? Doesn't require an admission from anyone. And I think this is the first time I've referred to the 'incident', I didn't coin that word to describe it, it's been bandied about on here for months.

As you seem to be able to interpret the workings of this man’s mind could you please clarify what he meant by his outburst to the chairman of the association at the AGM. I have a feeling a lot of people might misinterpret these comments as being downright disrespectful of the chair. We can’t have that happening can we?.

I wasn't at the agm, so I don't know what you're talking about here. As for interpreting the mans mind, I just know he wanted silver instead of brass for the high guns. Would you agree with that or not?

If there is a copy of the Atlantic report still lying around perhaps the association would post it to their website so we can draw our own conclusions on whether or not its findings were implemented or not. Maybe it is there already and you could post a Link.

The ISC commissioned and paid for that report, so why don't you ask them for a copy? Taxpayer funded, so should be available? Make an FOI request if you can't find a copy elsewhere.

We heard all about the alleged meetings between the association and the Sports Council in the recent AGM revelations in Shooters Digest. It looks like somebody could be telling porkies. Unfortunately we will have to wait for next month’s issue to hear more on that matter.

Please elaborate. What porkies? I don't buy ISD anymore.

Still waiting for some concrete examples of mismanagement, not repeated vague references to an old report that is probably no longer relevant.

raymo19

I hope you at least read Irish Shooters Digest last month. You should it’s actually quite a good read. There is very interesting reading in the letters to the Editor. I’m really surprised you didn’t buy it. Are you sure you’re not telling wee porkies now. Cyber Wave.

Anyway back to reality

The fiasco at the AGM is reported on there in black and white for all to read.
The national executive have now lost all trust.

I don’t need a copy of the Atlantic report, however reading it answered several questions I had in my mind. I would however draw your attention to Item 6 of the Key findings "The operating style and culture of the ICPSA, appears to us to be overly aggressive and combative". That report was commissioned in 2008.

I would now draw your attention to the following: Recent Tribunal Findings, Expulsion from Fitasc, Several Director Resignations and a whole raft of new Suspensions, Impending Legal cases.

Have the management really implemented the findings of the report or have they just attended to the low hanging fruit?.

The sports council have alot to answer for here also.

We can go on for the next week about mismanagement of that association if you really have the guts for it. I have.


Raymo 19

Cork24

Ah Clay Shooting has being on the down in Ireland.

I remember i had to pay 300 Euro for a Sign on Fee, and 200 Every year after that,

Plus Every Sunday you had to pay per Round of Clays, you could go though about 4 Boxes of Shells a Weekend.

it all adds up.. We need to make it affordable for people who wish to join Look at how England do things over, some clubs you dont even need to own a Gun, you can buy a One Day Pass, which Covers you for if you have an accident plus you fire the Clubs Gun, and you can not take it passed the Firing Range.

this if Ireland did something like this it would really bring the sport up, i know a few people that love to play clay Shooting but got turned down for a Shotgun, Clubs wont look at you until you get your Gun

Sparks

Cork24 wrote: »

Look at how England do things over, some clubs you dont even need to own a Gun, you can buy a One Day Pass, which Covers you for if you have an accident plus you fire the Clubs Gun, and you can not take it passed the Firing Range.
this if Ireland did something like this it would really bring the sport up

But isn't this already being done by every shotgun range that runs "corporate days" (which seems to be nearly all of them)? And haven't they been doing it that way for years already?

Sparks

raymo19 wrote: »

I hope you at least read Irish Shooters Digest last month

Raymo, some of us don't read that publication. At all. Some of us just got sick of seeing the one-sided stuff printed in it that we knew both sides of and knowing that the other side was never going to get fair billing in it, so we just gave up and walked away from it.

Upshot of which is, saying "oh, buy <such-and-such commercial product> in order to see why my argument is right" doesn't actually hold a lot of water. Either (a) it's your argument and you can make it properly on your own; or (b) you're someone else's mouthpiece. And if that's the case, let them post away themselves here instead.

And to forestall your next sentence, no, I have no dog in this hunt and I'm not being anyone's mouthpiece. I don't even shoot shotgun and I've no urge to do so.

But I can't help watch what you're posting and thinking "I've seen that before". We all have, in fact. We've seen the NRAI-NRPAI acrimony when the NRAI was set up, we've seen the NRAI-LRRAI rowing shortly afterwards (which included exactly the same international element that this thread's raising with FITASC and the ICPSA), and we've seen the same personal sniping bitchiness in just about every internecine spat that's wound up here (and I was as guilty of that as anyone else). And we've seen similar things with every other one of the multitude of rifle and pistol governing bodies, it seems that running a sport professionally is something that's beyond our ken for now.

But feck's sakes man; would you not learn from our mistakes so you can go and make new and exciting mistakes of your own instead of repeating ours?

superlite

Half-cocked wrote: »

Hi Superlite, I think you are confusing the ISSF with the ICTSF, that is where the difficulty is. Do you know for a fact that the ICPSA has not been talking to FITASC about this? Also, it's not just the ICPSA in trouble, I hear from some English CPSA members that there is trouble looming between the BICTSF and FITASC, no details yet but watch this space....

Hi half cocked,
If I'm confusing the issf with the ictsf, so be it, a minor detail. You got what I meant.
As I have read the announcement on the icpsa website they haven't said they are working on a resolution , they said they passed it on to the icpsa solicitor, and in fact that Ireland was the only member of the ICTSF affected, hence it being grossly unfair.
Obviously if things have been moving along the members need to be kept informed and I don't think it would be to much for the general secretary to update the previous report on the web site.
Members have a right to know what is going on.

Cork24

corporate days can cost an arm and a leg in price Terms.


I'm talking about people joining a Clay Club without the need to owning a Shotgun..

Sparks

Cork24 wrote: »

I'm talking about people joining a Clay Club without the need to owning a Shotgun..

There might be issues over joining the club (but that might just be limited to rifle/pistol clubs); but there shouldn't be a problem with not owning a shotgun in a shotgun club and using club guns instead - doesn't Courtlough operate on that principle already?

Half-cocked

superlite wrote: »

Hi half cocked,
If I'm confusing the issf with the ictsf, so be it, a minor detail. You got what I meant.

I got what you meant, just mentioned it in case others didn't. Not having a go or anything.

Half-cocked

raymo19 wrote: »

We can go on for the next week about mismanagement of that association if you really have the guts for it. I have.

Raymo 19

I'm sure we could and would you budge 1 inch from your position? Probably not and I wouldn't budge from mine. As for ISD, Sparks post sums it up.

Cork24

Sparks wrote: »

There might be issues over joining the club (but that might just be limited to rifle/pistol clubs); but there shouldn't be a problem with not owning a shotgun in a shotgun club and using club guns instead - doesn't Courtlough operate on that principle already?

I dont know about CourtLough,

But i was Watching Horse & Country One Night on Sky, and they were talking about Clay Shooting in England,

The Clay Shooting Clubs where in direr Shape, some clubs force to close etc etc, just like we have with some clubs..

so they Opened the Club to people who dont have Guns.. The Clubs in England have also Under 16 in their Clubs Since their Not Old Enough to have a Gun they Still can Fire the Club Guns Clay Shooting in England are on the Rise even more.

raymo19

Sparks that’s your personal opinion and you are entitled to it.
Did Irish shooters Digest report one side of the recent AGM or did they report what happened at the AGM. I sure the latter is true knowing the litigious nature of the organisation. The association regularly posts shooting results and commentaries about the general health of their Association. Some of the posters on here are regular contributors to ISD. I’m sceptical about why the climate has suddenly changed against ISD.
Bog mailer started this off not me. Why did you not point out his breach of forum rules?. You say you have no dog in the race but at least try to be impartial. I don’t have the luxury to put on my moderator hat when I don’t agree with what’s being said. You also took the side of Half Cocked in relation to the “My way” comments and intimated that I was misrepresenting other items. That was Half Cocked interpretation of the sequence of events and I’m glad you are happy that they are correct. I have made no misrepresentations here I can assure you of that.
You were also so kind to point out that I don’t know what I am talking about. Your right I don’t know what goes on at International level ISSF , NTSA, ICTSF, Fitasc, Olympics, Etc. Etc and neither does 99.9% of Joe public shooters nor do they care. The sooner you realise that the better for you all. International shooting is the preserve of a very few very privileged individuals. You speak about the loss of voting rights at International Level in the event of failure of Association. Let me assure you that if that association does fail the appointed person will only concern himself/herself with three things being Assets, Liabilities & Defecit.

Raymo 19

damanloox

@raymo19 - you may be right on the number of "international shooters". Average Joe (like me) will never bother with ISSF or FITASC. That doesn't change the fact that international level shooters are amongst us and Ireland need to be represented at international events. This will not happen if Ireland doesn't have internationally recognised federaration.
And here's my point - don't destroy what you have. ICPSA has been recognised by ISSF and FITASC (well... up to recent incident). If you don't like what ICPSA does - try to change it! If I'm reading your posts correctly - you're not the only one so there's a chance you might succeed (if you have enough support). Leaving the organisation and then complaining is not the best way. It's the way to destruction. And it will be hard to get back to international level.
And you're probably right - ICPSA could do more for average Joe. Cutting down their fees would be a good first step (followed by many more).

Milo25

In the end it’s typical of a sad situation. There has been a lot of talk at shoots and all kinds of stories for a long time now that we are all tired of but as a few have pointed out here, no ‘concrete’ examples of this mismanagement. I can't see how the 'incident' you keep referring to was mismanaged with the rules they had to follow. I can't see how they could of acted differently otherwise it would of been outside of their rules and that's when the trouble would of really started. Agreed, the ISD report made decent reading as it actually cleared a lot of 'stories' up and all 11 pages are worth a look. It was good to get something out of 'the top table'. At least it’s factual, not the spin, BS, or tall stories that we had been hearing at shoots and there hasn't been anyone disputing any of it on here. If any of it were made up it would of been called by now. With the disciplinarys it looks like they are not afraid of letting ‘story tellers’ or rule breakers off the hook, and rightly so, that’s strong management in my book. And it looks as well like a lot of the board has changed in the past year so why it has to be replaced or freshened up I don't know. Sparks is correct about how sad this is in the long run. It's not just Shooting, rifle or shotgun, it seems to be the old Irish problem, either we have to pull everything down that is worthwhile from within or from the sidelines to get our own way, and will do anything to do that apart from taking part in fixing it. A few examples of that type of shooter on here. Sad to hear from Sparks that the shotgun is going the exact same way of the rifle. Every rifle man must be shaking their heads reading this. Groundhog day? Can shotgun not learn from rifle? Like Damonloox says if things are so bad what happened to getting involved to try make a difference the right way. All we hear is noise, no 'concrete' or fixes, like a cheap opposition party lines in The Dail dragging everything down to a level. Cheap shots from the sidelines and running away wont help clay shooting in Ireland. There are no winners doing that. Genuinely, the best of good luck to the new shooting sports orgs. I agreed with whoever said it, it won't take long before the honeymoon period ends and not everyone will be happy there either, some few will not get their way and run away again and we will have another couple of shooting orgs to deal with and dilute the pot even further. They’d better have their admin & rules and regs in place for then. For a small sporting group on a small island it’s a shame to have a few who want to bring it down any way they can in such a childish way. We have to start accepting that not one org can be to all members, not everything in life can be perfect, there has to be comprise for progress, not everyone can be right, not everyone get can what they want. How many years did it take them to suss that out up North?

raymo19

Welcome to boards. Were getting a lot of first time poster on that side of the argument. Bogmailer must have dirtied his bib.

You might feel that the board has been refreshed however the majority of shooters are well aware that they are all handpicked cronies. That board will soon be facing real freshening up.[/COLOR]
You talk about story tellers and rule breakers and strong management. I would call them Irish Shooters and former Directors that that the balls to speak up. I again draw your attention to my earlier comments about the findings of Atlantic Report and your comment on strong management.

You are looking for concrete examples of Mismanagemet. I will answer you that in one "Impending Failure". 95% of corporate failures are due to poor decisions at the top table. That in simple terms means mismanagement.

If mismanagement is not the reason please hi-light how the association got into this situation and also detail who is responsible if not the National Executive(Strong Management) ?.


Raymo 19.

Sparks

raymo19 wrote: »

I’m sceptical about why the climate has suddenly changed against ISD.

Suddenly? Really?

You were also so kind to point out that I don’t know what I am talking about. Your right I don’t know what goes on at International level ISSF , NTSA, ICTSF, Fitasc, Olympics, Etc. Etc

But you'd happily destroy it?

and neither does 99.9% of Joe public shooters nor do they care.
The sooner you realise that the better for you all. International shooting is the preserve of a very few very privileged individuals.

Bull**** of the highest order.
Learn a bit more about the people involved before you say things like that lad. Postal workers, nurses, soldiers -- these are very privileged individuals are they?
And if 99.9% of shooters don't care, why are two of the largest clubs in the country (DURC and UCDRC) both ISSF clubs?

raymo19

You are very privileged to be able to afford to shoot internationally.
What people do for a living has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I have a fairly good job and I can’t afford to shoot internationally. If I could, I would feel privileged.

You handpicked your answers there, Why did you not pick up on bogmailers insult to Csi members earlier? Is that a breach of forum rules or not?.
You made accusations that I have been misrepresenting things. Please list them.

You also seem to be missing the point. It is the management of the association that happy to destroy it not me. If they cared they would have already resigned.

Go and have a read of the big pile of bull**** on the association website about the expulsion from Fitasc. It look’s like the association are getting stuffed with a mouthful of their own medicine. Read the Fitasc reply very carefully. Theres "Milo's" strong management in operation on the other foot.

Raymo

dCorbus

"Very privileged individuals"...I think not!
Don't know about the International shooters in the shotgun sports - but rest assured there's no one 'very privileged' shooting rifle internationally (in any discipline, that I know of). Can't say I know EVERYONE shooting a rifle discipline internationally from Ireland - but the shooters I do personally know are NOT what anyone could describe as 'very privileged' - dedicated, yes; hard-working, yes; willing to make massive personal and financial sacrifices, absolutely; but 'privileged', erm....nope!

It wasn't me!

Yep, being able to afford to go abroad and shoot is more a matter of what you're willing to sacrifice to do so. For some it might mean not taking as many holidays as they'd like. For others it might mean driving a much smaller, older car than they'd like. Others might have to get an extra job, or give up smoking, drinking, going out at the weekends (otherwise known as eating into productive training time) or doing just about anything except working and training, but that's the thing. It's about what you're willing to change in your lifestyle to make it a reality, and if you're not willing to make big changes, that's far more of a restriction on the likelihood of competing internationally than your salary.

raymo19

That's my personal opinion and I am entitled to that. I do however commend you for all your efforts to compete for your country. It's a pity you have to make such sacrifices and that there is not the funding available to support you.

I myself still can't afford to go abroad shooting. It cost me circa 55 euro plus travel to shoot in Mill hill on Sunday. I had to sacrifice going out this weekend to do that. If I was to try to explain that to my unemployed friend and neighbour he would suggest that I was privileged to do that and has done so many times. I still believe that you are privileged to be able to compete internationally at something you love doing regardless of the sacrifice you make. I don't mean that as an insult either.

Raymo