ICPSA FITASC Membership Pulled

dCorbus

I think you're confusing 'privileged' with 'honoured'.

I'd suggest a quick check of the actual definition of 'privileged' - very or otherwise - before labelling quite a large number of irish shooters as such. You're correct - you are of course entirely entitled to hold and to express your own opinion on this - despite such an opinion being based entirely on incorrect assumptions and a lack of facts....

Wow, you had to give up your night-out to go shooting....the hardship

Seriously, before tarring those irish shooters who do just a wee bit more than 'give up a night out' as some sort of 'very privileged' bunch, I'd suggest a bit of a reality check as to what constitutes 'privilege'. And I mean ALL irish rifle shooters in ALL the disciplines who've been honoured to represent their country in international competition - there's a lot more dedication out there to competitive shooting than you seem to be aware of....so please give it a break and leave off with insulting those shooters who either have competed on the international stage or those who strive to. Just my opinion

raymo19

I am dedicated to my shooting also and at great expense to myself. You don't know who I am nor the sacrifices I make. You can make fun of my comment about a night out but the laugh is really on you as it's an ignorant comment because you really don't know. You're a privilege lot to shoot internationally and if his thread was on he main shooting boards you would soon find what joe public shooter really feels. The sacrifice, the blood and sweat of it all .Really Lol. Remember that joe public would brand all shooting sports as elitist and a very expensive luxury. Why is there such little funding for shooting sports? You are privileged to shoot internationally. How you interpret that is a matter of opinion.

Raymo19

BaldSparrow

biddykelly wrote: »

The person who started the thread said in an earlier post that is now deleted (???) he is the secretary of a rival to the ICPSA. So his motives for starting this thread are???? If the majority has moved on and couldnt care less about the ICPSA like you say then why do a few of you spend so much time talking about the ICPSA?

Let’s be clear here seen as I am the person who started this thread. Yes I am the Secretary to Irelands Largest, most successful Inter-Club Sporting League which to make very clear is not a rival organisation to the ICPSA. In fact back when it was formed the ICPSA never once wanted anything to do with it. They were happy to piggyback and reap the rewards of the League over the many years. Just because last year the League representatives decided to move away from expensive ICPSA membership and adopt a much more cost effective form of insurance, which has increased the number of shooters taking part, has provided more funding for Junior shooters and also sponsorship for Life saving equipment suddenly the ICPSA claim that the League is a breakaway and was always part of them.
Now to make things even clearer, I am also a former officer of the ICPSA. Maybe for a short time as I was in no uncertain terms forced to resign my position on the LCPSA, I firmly believe that the ICPSA is the correct way to administer and look after the interests of the sport. However I completely disagree, along with a hell of a lot of others I may add that the current administration are running the association into the ground. The need for rules and regulations is a must not only to properly regulate the sport but to make everything fare for everyone involved however when you have a National Executive that have no idea what is going on in the sport at grass root level, allow incidents to occur and do nothing about it and still today refuse to even discuss or sanction the individual, refuse to address the current economic climate and lower fees for individuals or look for better alternatives, ban individuals for speaking their minds, individuals that have represented our country on numerous occasions how can anyone say that this is proper management.
The vast majority of individuals that did not renew their membership this year have done this because of this mismanagement.
Again the reason I started this thread is to highlight the issue to individuals invested in this subject and allow somewhere for it to be discussed. Discussion is the only way that these issues can be resolved. If the ICPSA fails then it will be a dark day for shooting as it may be impossible to ever rebuild it.


Lets be honest with ourselves, if you were a share holder of a company and it was being run the way the ICPSA is would you not be angry and want change?

BaldSparrow

dCorbus

For a man who took great exception at what was posted as a comment in passing about the csi at the start of this long thread, I would have thought that you'd appreciate when and why shooters might just be insulted by your own characterisation of them as 'very privileged'.

As you point out, I don't know you: likewise, you do not know me....so your comments about privilege and the implications of elitism contained in that title which you try to apply to any shooter from Ireland who has competed internationally, are considerably wide of the mark and rest assured are untrue.

In case you haven't noticed, this thread IS on the main shooting forum....so your attempted point about that is moot.

You seem to think you speak for 99.9% of irish shooters - I don't think so.

I don't know what sacrifices you've made for your sport - but equally you have NO IDEA what others (myself included) have had to do to keep shooting, at national or international level, or just simply to keep shooting. So do me a favour and pull in your horns and stop insulting people. Please.

It was you who mentioned giving up a weekends night out - I merely commented that that is a drop in the ocean compared to the number of nights out (and other things) the vast majority of irish competitive shooters give up (willingly) to keep up their respective sport. And yes, most of the shooters I personally know are joe public - don't know who you hang out with on the range, but the lads I know are members of Joe Public (as you term them).

I'm confused where you're coming from or going to on this - other than going out of your way to denigrate and insult irish shooters, because you see others as 'very privileged' - we've gone way off topic and I'll leave you to your misconceptions.

BaldSparrow

Going back over some of these posts please everyone respect each other. This thread was not started to make remarks about each other. No matter how big or small the sacrifices we have all made them. Financial, Family, Time you name it. Just remember that as a small minority sport we are in this together. It doesn’t help that our governing body is going down the toilet but it’s worse if we fight amongst ourselves

mark42

Cork24 wrote: »

Ah Clay Shooting has being on the down in Ireland.

I remember i had to pay 300 Euro for a Sign on Fee, and 200 Every year after that,

Plus Every Sunday you had to pay per Round of Clays, you could go though about 4 Boxes of Shells a Weekend.

it all adds up.. We need to make it affordable for people who wish to join Look at how England do things over, some clubs you dont even need to own a Gun, you can buy a One Day Pass, which Covers you for if you have an accident plus you fire the Clubs Gun, and you can not take it passed the Firing Range.

this if Ireland did something like this it would really bring the sport up, i know a few people that love to play clay Shooting but got turned down for a Shotgun, Clubs wont look at you until you get your Gun

Now that is mad must be along time ago I payed 200 buy in and 70 a year

BaldSparrow

mark42 wrote: »

Now that is mad must be along time ago I payed 200 buy in and 70 a year

I dont remember having to pay 200 euro buy in

raymo19

I will say this again 99.9 percent of Irish shooters do not shoot internationally nor does it concern them. I do not speak for them I can't.This country is a deep recession and I can assure that anybody who can afford to shoot internationally is privileged.You can interpret my comments on privilege as an insult to Irish shooters if you like but I don't. That's a matter of a interpretation. Bog mailers comments earlier were unprovoked and insulting and quite frankly I wonder what was his real agenda.
You can play about with the meaning of what I said about privilege for as long as you like that's up to you. Joe public (non shooters) do see shooting sports as elitist and a luxury that's a bitter pill we all have to swallow.
I commend you for all your self proclaimed efforts for shooting on an international stage.
However look at what the management of the Icpsa have achieved in the last couple of weeks in relation to our standing at international level.
How do you feel about that ?

One of the icpsa managements biggest failings was to totally concentrate on the international matters and forget about joe public shooter.

I hope you rifle shooters take note.

Lastly your misconception of what I said about privilege has driven us off the topic.

Raymo

mark42

BaldSparrow wrote: »

I dont remember having to pay 200 euro buy in

well we will be looking for it so that coz your with us so long stuck with you ha ha :pac::pac::pac:

LB6

raymo19 wrote: »

a bitter pill we all have to swallow.


I hope you rifle shooters take note.

This thread has not only been a bitter pill to swallow, but it's insulting to all of us that shoot rifles both nationally and internationally to talk to us as if you were addressing children. Please get off your high horse!

Priviledge I don't have, I worked hard at getting to the top of my sport, I worked harder to pay to get to competitions.

I am "honoured" though to shoot for my country and represent it and proudly show my flag where-ever I go.

Please let it go - it's gone beyond a joke! :mad:

BaldSparrow

mark42 wrote: »

well we will be looking for it so that coz your with us so long stuck with you ha ha :pac::pac::pac:

Dont know about being stuck with me. Ive been approached by 4 Stars

It wasn't me!

To shoot for your country is an honour and a privilege. To say it is open to the privileged few among those with the resources to shoot in the first place, however, is crap.

pastense

Who cares, those that have left are delighted with the move and the new trap shoots will cater for a whole lot of others, let the ICPSA sort out their own ship and the others can sort out theirs.
As far as FITASC goes, from my reading of it, if the ICPSA are banned by FITASC then all Irish shooters who wish to shoot international FITASC events do not have to be a member of the ICPSA and can shoot as a guest.
Also FITASC state that clubs can continue to run FITASC events so that means any club can.
Happy days.

LB6

but did it not also say that ireland cannot send a team, that only individuals will be accepted.

mark42

BaldSparrow wrote: »

Dont know about being stuck with me. Ive been approached by 4 Stars

What you looking for stars now this AA going to your head ... lol.. see on Sunday

raymo19

Looks like my comment has caused quite a stir. It wasn't me I could interpret your last comment several ways. It is indeed an honour to shoot for your country and you are indeed privileged to do so. There you go.
It's great to get all your attention. I was getting sick of squabbling with a certain individuals different alter egoes. No we can have a meaningful chat.

The Icpsa has been dumped out of fitasc
Nigh on nobody is attending their shoots as they are disgusted with the association's behaviour
Clubs are cancelling shoots daily
Membership numbers have fallen drastically
Their auditors are predicting corporate failure
The Management have stuck their heads in the ground hoping this will all go away
The rifle shooters will also loose international voting rights if the association fails.


Can anybody out there tell me who is responsible ?

Raymo

pastense

ICPSA is happy to look after their members as they see fit, those that dont like it leave, no problem, lots of clays flying freely out there, vast majority dont give a toss about international shooting, which makes the FITASC thing great news for everybody, you can shoot FITASC sporting at any club without being a member of ICPSA, you can enter FITASC championships without being a member of ICPSA,
you can join CPSA and shoot in UK if you want. Forget it lads, its over, each to their own.

mark42

Well raymo 19 there is no way I'll be paying €125. To the ICPSA ever again what does the clubman get nothing . We had a great league this year and there is no shortage of 100 birds to come .
Am I rite in saying that the Gs has a 30 year contact correct me if I am wrong .
We are were we are some stayed with the ICPSA while we moved on and in that time the truth has come out .
MillHill was a great shoot last Sunday raymo 19 you will never get a straight answer sail on let their ship sink

pastense

mark42, you are right, leave it to them. Clays are free to fly wherever they want and be it CSI sporting and trap, Leinster league, flappers, Nargc, Countryside alliance, CPSA, UCPSA, plenty of opportunities, and not forgetting FITASC.
As they say, onward and upward.

IRLConor

raymo19 wrote: »

The rifle shooters will also loose international voting rights if the association fails.

No they won't, at least not for the ISSF stuff which is the only area where there's any overlap to the best of my knowledge. This is the relevant part from the ISSF constitution:

1.3.3 Membership is open to one (1) Federation from each country. Countries with two (2) member federations recognized prior to 1989 may retain dual membership, but no new applications for membership may be accepted from more than one (1) federation per country;

Right now the NTSA has half a vote and the ICPSA has half a vote. If the ICPSA disappeared in the morning then the NTSA gets a full vote and has to take responsibility for the ISSF shotgun side of things.

I don't think this is something either the ICPSA or NTSA wants.

raymo19

Thanks for clearing that up. It looks like you will end up with one full vote if the ICPSA collapses. I'm glad it wont really affect you then.

Raymo

Half-cocked

raymo19 wrote: »

I will say this again 99.9 percent of Irish shooters do not shoot internationally nor does it concern them.
Raymo

Raymo, a quick check in the ICPSA members handbook shows that 130+ individual members shot internationally last year. If this makes up the 0.1% who shoot internationally then there are, according to your figures 130,000 shooters out there who don't. I haven't counted all the rifle and pistol shooters who competed internationally in this. Maybe some one from that side of things would like to add them into the 0.1% group and recalculate? I haven't seen any recent figures from AGS, but I think 130,000 is pretty close to the total number of gun owners (as opposed to guns) in the country, but that figure will get even bigger when the rifle and pistol numbers are added in. The vast majority of gun owners are in the agricultural sector and use guns for pest control, second largest group are game shooters. If you are going to include these two groups when you refer to Irish shooters, then maybe your 99.9% assertion just about adds up, but it's like saying 99.9% of Irish drivers do not compete in motor sports nor does it concern them.

raymo19

Thanks for all your calculations. Now I refer you back to my second last post in relation to responsibility for the current mess. Please answer the question I asked ?.
Are you responsible ?.


Raymo

It wasn't me!

raymo19 wrote: »

I'm glad it wont really affect you then.

Not sure how you can say that a small, unfunded body having to take over the domestic international administration of a much, much larger shooting body won't affect the members of the NTSA or its clubs. Seems pretty massive to me.

IRLConor

raymo19 wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up. It looks like you will end up with one full vote if the ICPSA collapses. I'm glad it wont really affect you then.

I will continue to have no vote. I merely shoot ISSF disciplines, I don't run the NTSA.

In all seriousness though, an ICPSA collapse would not help the NTSA in any way. The folks running the NTSA have enough on their plate without having to deal with a merger of shotgun stuff.

So it would affect me if the ICPSA went away because the NTSA would be distracted from its primary job by having to deal with the side-effects of an internecine squabble elsewhere.

Half-cocked

raymo19 wrote: »

Thanks for all your calculations. Now I refer you back to my second last post in relation to responsibility for the current mess. Please answer the question I asked ?.
Are you responsible ?.


Raymo

Responsibility for the current mess cannot be laid at the door of any one individual or group. There have been any number of factors contributing to it, both within and without the ICPSA. If I am responsible by working for the ICPSA, it's clubs and members to the best of my abilities for no reward and precious little thanks, then I am responsible. Also responsible are those who re-elected me unopposed for year after year even when I made it known I'd happily step aside for new blood. I only stuck the job because no one else would do it. Weren't you at the Leinster agm where I was re-elected for the last time, yet again unopposed? You didn't even abstain. Thank you for all your support, you too are responsible.

raymo19

So you do admit that in your work for the association you are at least partially responsible for the mess. Thanks for clearing that up. I would be grateful if you could expand on all the factors from outside the Association that have contributed to the mess?.

Raymo

Half-cocked

raymo19 wrote: »

So you do admit that in your work for the association you are at least partially responsible for the mess. Thanks for clearing that up. I would be grateful if you could expand on all the factors from outside the Association that have contributed to the mess?.

Raymo

And do you admit that you are also partially responsible by not exercising your vote within Leinster to make any changes whatsoever? Perhaps for the record you could tell us all how long you were a member of the ICPSA and what work you did for the association during that time?

I couldn't be bothered expanding on anything. No matter what I say you will oppose it. If I or the ICPSA said the Earth was round you would probably join the Flat Earth Society. You seem to have quite a fixation with the ICPSA for some one who is not a member. I am defending an association of which I am a member and have been for a long time, what is your reason for attacking it?

pastense

For hundreds of former members who now shoot CSI and other events, the ICPSA is history and the quicker they realise that the better for us all.
We will carry on enjoying our sport without the threat of expulsion hanging over our heads.

Sparks

Folks, we've just had to delete several posts here which had defamatory claims in them.

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Please, review rule five and specifically this bit:

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