Cloughran training on Tuesday. I'm the guy with a rowdy Foxhound :)

DeVore

I've started trying (*trying*) to socialise Joshua and get some formal training in. To say its been tricky is an understatement. He's a bit of a handful but things are improving, slowly.

So if you see a bloke standing in the corner, isolated from everyone because his mutt is a bolshie so-and-so... do say hi
I'd love to meet other dog owners from the forum and its a bit of company when we're relegated to the bold corner
I'll be the one with a baying foxhound nearby.

Knine

Ha I remember meeting you there although your dog was not too friendly towards mine!

I hope you are enjoying the classes.

I am also one of the rincraft trainers. I will come over and say hello when I'm next up.

Heskey1971

Hi Devore

I have a St Bernard,65kg's so I understand your pain re a '' rowdy '' dog.

A quick tip for you,I brought my one for classes a couple of years ago and the trainer didn't want dogs to meet each other before classes,that was a disaster as when the classes started my one wanted to meet and smell every dog,she went crazy.

The following week I said feck this,and let her meet and smell every dog before the class,made a huge difference,she was able to just concentrate on the class and me.

Could help,hope it does

Heskey

DeVore

Yeah, week 1 was a bit of a nightmare as unfortunately Josh was very nervous (ears pinned back, yawning, skittish) and when we joined the beginners groups the dog nexted to us had a lunge at Josh and he took off behind my legs (thanks buddy)...then he decided he wasnt having any of that and lunged back at the other dog and we had to walk off opposite directions. After that he was in a high stress state and was walking about bowowowowing to let every other dog know that Josh had arrived.
Spent that whole week over in the dunces corner.

Now were able to join the group and when two other dogs start rowing he doesn't start barking to join in, which is a plus. He doesn't have rows with many small dogs (in fact he doesnt have rows with a dog unless a dog starts growling with him, but BOY is he sure to escalate it). He does seem to be more reactive to big dogs... he picks the biggest of them to start on . There is a gentleman with an ENORMOUS newfoundland dog... god almighty what kind of house must he have to manage that dog, you could put a saddle on it! Lets just say Josh loves a challenge...

Things are getting better though, he seems to be getting more relaxed about the classes, but I agree, mostly Josh just wants to sniff and jump around with the dogs and it seems like having 5 minutes before the class might be a help. I'll try that next week.

JustAThought

DeVore wrote: »

Yeah, week 1 was a bit of a nightmare as unfortunately Josh was very nervous (ears pinned back, yawning, skittish) and when we joined the beginners groups the dog nexted to us had a lunge at Josh and he took off behind my legs (thanks buddy)...then he decided he wasnt having any of that and lunged back at the other dog and we had to walk off opposite directions. After that he was in a high stress state and was walking about bowowowowing to let every other dog know that Josh had arrived.
Spent that whole week over in the dunces corner.

Now were able to join the group and when two other dogs start rowing he doesn't start barking to join in, which is a plus. He doesn't have rows with many small dogs (in fact he doesnt have rows with a dog unless a dog starts growling with him, but BOY is he sure to escalate it). He does seem to be more reactive to big dogs... he picks the biggest of them to start on . There is a gentleman with an ENORMOUS newfoundland dog... god almighty what kind of house must he have to manage that dog, you could put a saddle on it! Lets just say Josh loves a challenge...

Things are getting better though, he seems to be getting more relaxed about the classes, but I agree, mostly Josh just wants to sniff and jump around with the dogs and it seems like having 5 minutes before the class might be a help. I'll try that next week.

I wonder if that is the fabulous friendly Newfie that sprinted across the park in Malahide to jump on me & flatten me trying to say hi cos I'd given his a sausage once to help his owner get him into his car!!!

Foxhounds are fab with their big bowWowwowoooohooo : ) don't let them keep you in the naughty corner! I always make sure mine has a good mad run off lead before I go in otherwise it's mental night!! I'll say hi if I see you lurking!!!

Keep at it - it'll be worth it in the end!!!

( I once got refused into joining up for an obedience class because fido was having a chaotic excitement night! The shame!!!! & then The walk of shame!!!all better now!!

DeVore

Yeah I was put into one class and even as I walked across the gym floor towards it, the trainer took one look at us and pointed towards what my mate calls "the remedial class" ... and even then we got put in the corner

borderlinemeath

DeVore wrote: »

Yeah I was put into one class and even as I walked across the gym floor towards it, the trainer took one look at us and pointed towards what my mate calls "the remedial class" ... and even then we got put in the corner

Seriously though, what is Josh meant to learn standing in the corner? If the other dogs are nearby and he want's to interact then it's just going to be even more frustrating for him standing apart where he can see, hear and smell them but not allowed to interact? I wouldn't rate that as a particularly good method of training and socialisation. You'll get bored and pissed off too:(.

Were you allowed any interaction at all?

Knine

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Seriously though, what is Josh meant to learn standing in the corner? If the other dogs are nearby and he want's to interact then it's just going to be even more frustrating for him standing apart where he can see, hear and smell them but not allowed to interact? I wouldn't rate that as a particularly good method of training and socialisation. You'll get bored and pissed off too:(.

Were you allowed any interaction at all?

It depends though what way he wants to interact. He certainly was not friendly towards my dog who is very well socialized & was there for show training.

Trainers have to be careful that no dog or owner gets injured.

I may be there tomorrow so will say hello to the OP and his lovely dog.

tk123

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Seriously though, what is Josh meant to learn standing in the corner?

Focus! Well that's what we learnt when we were in a seperate area (ie the daycare puppy pen:p) although my baba was less than a year old at that stage so him being distracted was a given I think.:pac: Another thing he learned was 'work etiquette' in that we were there to work together and it wasn't play time or time to meet with other dogs - classes were at the same place he goes to daycare.. He knows if I'm inside the main area with him that he's there to work with me and find out what I want him to do so I'll give him treats.

TBH from what I've heard about cloghran is that it can be packed to the rafters so possibly too much going on if your dog is easily distracted or wanting to play/argue with other dogs. You might be better off in a smaller class with a smaller trainer to student ratio who can give you one to one attention if and when is needed.

Whispered

Heskey1971 wrote: »

A quick tip for you,I brought my one for classes a couple of years ago and the trainer didn't want dogs to meet each other before classes,that was a disaster as when the classes started my one wanted to meet and smell every dog,she went crazy.

The following week I said feck this,and let her meet and smell every dog before the class,made a huge difference,she was able to just concentrate on the class and me.

I know this "rule" might seem silly to owners who don't have nervous or aggressive dogs but there genuinely is a reason for it. It might have worked out ok for you that time, but could have seriously stressed a nervous dog or even nervous owner. I know that before I had a chance to properly socialise my dog, if my he was approached to be smelled when already in a new environment he would be very stressed and it would make the classes a lot harder for me trying to keep his attention when he's so stressed.

DeVore, my dogs don't like meeting other dogs when they are on a lead, but when offlead they are much better. Maybe you could consider going to an adult social group?

DeVore

Well I dont want to give the idea that I'm not happy with the classes! The class we were in had a very nervous dog, a quite aggro dog and a yappy (hilariously yappy!) small dog so it wasn't exactly ideal to toss Josh into on his first day! I understand that people dont want Josh (who can be quite boisterous!) scaring the crap out of their dog when they are trying to get training going. Thats ok...

In the subsequent weeks he seems to be calmer now and we've spent a bit of time in the class getting some training done. The classes can be quite full (or not, depending on peoples mood I guess) but certainly for the cost (5 euro!) ... sure that wouldnt cover the free tea and biscuits let alone the hall rental and trainer costs

The trainers were keen to come over and show me how to try to ease him into things and as I said, it seems to be working. Sorry if he's had a go at anyone's dog, he can be a bit... lively at time. Whispered, it does seem to be a "lead" thing as he can be very playful at other times with other dogs so its probably a bit of possessiveness about me.

So if you see me and a bowowowowy Foxhound, do say hi!

boomerang

DeVore wrote: »

Yeah I was put into one class and even as I walked across the gym floor towards it, the trainer took one look at us and pointed towards what my mate calls "the remedial class" ... and even then we got put in the corner

Ah no, I don't like that. Classes are supposed to be fun and light-hearted for you and Josh. You shouldn't have to feel less welcome than any other people there with their dogs. I empathise because many years ago I went to classes with my nervous, reactive doglet and we were made to feel like pariahs.

The trainer should ask the other people in the class to give yourself and Josh a bit more room if all of you are in a large circle around the trainer. That will help.

If you work on getting Josh'es attention back on you with a 'look!' command paired with a treat (if he's foodie) that will also take his attention off the other dogs that might be bothering him.

boomerang

tk123 wrote: »

You might be better off in a smaller class with a smaller trainer to student ratio who can give you one to one attention if and when is needed.

This is true. The class sizes in Dog Training Ireland are limited to about a dozen at the very most and the trainers are really understanding about barky dogs and make sure they're given sufficient space!

borderlinemeath

DeVore wrote: »

Well I dont want to give the idea that I'm not happy with the classes! The class we were in had a very nervous dog, a quite aggro dog and a yappy (hilariously yappy!) small dog so it wasn't exactly ideal to toss Josh into on his first day! I understand that people dont want Josh (who can be quite boisterous!) scaring the crap out of their dog when they are trying to get training going. Thats ok...

In the subsequent weeks he seems to be calmer now and we've spent a bit of time in the class getting some training done. The classes can be quite full (or not, depending on peoples mood I guess) but certainly for the cost (5 euro!) ... sure that wouldnt cover the free tea and biscuits let alone the hall rental and trainer costs

The trainers were keen to come over and show me how to try to ease him into things and as I said, it seems to be working. Sorry if he's had a go at anyone's dog, he can be a bit... lively at time. Whispered, it does seem to be a "lead" thing as he can be very playful at other times with other dogs so its probably a bit of possessiveness about me.

So if you see me and a bowowowowy Foxhound, do say hi!

DeV, I don't mean to harp on but I do think you need to get Josh neutered.

Josh has come to me on a number of visits. I have calculated that in total since the end of January he has spent 26 days and nights here, interacting with all the dogs, getting on great with everybody EXCEPT other intact males.

I have said it to you that he has aggressive tendencies with other entire males. He reacts with one of my daycare dogs, another time he reacted to a lovely old boxer and on numerous times on walks he loses the plot with other intact males. I make a point of asking the owners, almost by way of an apology if their dog has been neutered and every time there's been a reaction the answer has been "no, my dog is not neutered'. I now prefer to take him into the fields rather than the beach so as not to have any encounters.

The classes in Cloghran are run at the show centre, where people show their dogs, and of course one of the conditions of showing is that the dogs must be entire. So Josh is sensing all this testosterone around him and of course he's going ballistic. It may have also got to the point where he associates being around other dogs on leads to start kicking off but in fairness he is going to be in the company of other intact males in your class and in others so it's going to be so much worse for him. He does get noisy and frustrated easily when on lead but also bear in mind that if he does become antagonistic with another intact male then he cannot get away because he's stuck on lead so his natural reaction will be to fight.

I understand what you mean about him 'calming' somewhat. I have had him in situations here where he can play with the others, while not interacting with another intact male but he's always 'on edge'. By that I mean he's always eyeing up the other dog, bristling around until something kicks off, and it invariably does, it might be the other dog catching a ball or even playing with another dog but Josh will literally be giving him 'a dirty look' (honestly, that's what it's like!) until the other dog upon sensing the unease usually barks in defence and then Josh loses the plot.

But...he's absolutely brilliant with all the others, even my less tolerant female engages in a bit of a flirting match with him every time he comes down. She's at the age now where she tends to sit back and procrastinate at the others playing, she engages in a bit of play with Benson (who also adores Josh) and usually that's it, but Josh tends to float her boat:D. All the females and the neutered males love him and he is always in the middle of everything.

I know you don't want to get him neutered. It's not for every dog but I really do think Josh needs it. I've seen how he behaves with other intact males, I'm on edge when he encounters another intact male and to be honest you should be too. He tried to nip me a couple of times when on lead and he went lunging at other dogs and when I tried to hold his harness he turned around to bite my hand away. That's not acceptable behaviour but there's a very good chance that the behaviour will dissipate if you get him neutered.

I honestly don't see things improving for his socialisation if he remains intact. He's super duper smart, so quick to learn and responds so well when he is focused so classes could be brilliant for him. I think maybe a one to one or a small class that doesn't have any male dogs might work, but to find a trainer that will work with that criteria is going to be tough.

Please don't take this post up to the wrong way either. I adore Josh, he's a brilliant, brilliant dog, so smart and so much fun, and a bundle of energy on 4 paws. He's so much fun to watch, particularly his ball catching acrobatic skills and the sheer joy on his face when he's racing full tilt across a field. When he's tired he turns into this soft, huggable little teddy bear who wants to be cuddled and it's hard to imagine it's the same dog who could kick off and cause trouble.

DeVore

They're gorgeous but the Newfie I was thinking of was stone cold black, tail-to-nose. I'll say high if I see you there tonight!

Borderline, I hear you, giving it serious consideration now.

boomerang

It is something I have witnessed a lot in training classes - the un-neutered male dogs find it very hard to focus and pay attention.

Pixie Chief

I can sympathize! I have a Penn Mary Dale X Welsh foxhound, so he is huge. He is terribly friendly with other dogs but boisterous (putting it mildly) and has serious issues with recognizing other peoples personal space. He is almost 2 now and calming down. I got him neutered 7 months ago and it made not a jot of difference to his attitude or behavior. Nor did it make any difference to the JRT's I had before that. They were neutered earlier but I left Indy later as he was growing so fast and so big that the vert recommended that I leave him for a while as the testosterone would help show his growth. Given my own experiences, I fail to see why neutering is offered as the miracle solution for all male dogs. It really isn't.

It's quite unusual for a foxhound to be so reactive to other dogs, they're usually very friendly and comfortable around others. they are a pack animal after all, more so than a dog. It may be that there is just too many dogs all at once for him - maybe try socialising in smaller groups?

You can often appeal to your hound (mine is incurably greedy) by having nice things in your pocket. His attention needs to be more on you than on the other things going on. Works fabulously with Indy. Without it, he is wildly distracted by everything, other dogs, interesting smells and people. It's what they do and the urge is bred into them very strongly.

I was told when I got him to remember that hounds are not dogs. They share a few behavioural traits but they are not the same. I laughed when they said that they are more like a goat crossed with a dog but they have a point. I have been around hounds more or less all of my life and it's a very different proposition keeping one as a pet on it's own. They need a huge amount of stimulation and exercise. Tiring one out is a challenge (have only managed it twice in two years) but you might try having him go in after a long walk. I also find that it makes a massive difference to Indy to run loose in the field (once we finally got the recall sorted out - that was not handy) it really does something to the inside of his head and he is much calmer after but we have the room for that, not everybody does. They seem to need the open space to run. Perhaps a neighbouring farmer?

tk123

Pixie Chief wrote: »

I can sympathize! I have a Penn Mary Dale X Welsh foxhound, so he is huge. He is terribly friendly with other dogs but boisterous (putting it mildly) and has serious issues with recognizing other peoples personal space. He is almost 2 now and calming down. I got him neutered 7 months ago and it made not a jot of difference to his attitude or behavior. Nor did it make any difference to the JRT's I had before that. They were neutered earlier but I left Indy later as he was growing so fast and so big that the vert recommended that I leave him for a while as the testosterone would help show his growth. Given my own experiences, I fail to see why neutering is offered as the miracle solution for all male dogs. It really isn't.

You haven't mentioned if your dogs agressive before and after though?

borderlinemeath

Pixie Chief wrote: »

I can sympathize! I have a Penn Mary Dale X Welsh foxhound, so he is huge. He is terribly friendly with other dogs but boisterous (putting it mildly) and has serious issues with recognizing other peoples personal space. He is almost 2 now and calming down. I got him neutered 7 months ago and it made not a jot of difference to his attitude or behavior. Nor did it make any difference to the JRT's I had before that. They were neutered earlier but I left Indy later as he was growing so fast and so big that the vert recommended that I leave him for a while as the testosterone would help show his growth. Given my own experiences, I fail to see why neutering is offered as the miracle solution for all male dogs. It really isn't.

Where was it suggested on this thread that neutering is the miracle solution for all male dogs? What I posted was:

It's not for every dog but I really do think Josh needs it.

It's quite unusual for a foxhound to be so reactive to other dogs, they're usually very friendly and comfortable around others. they are a pack animal after all, more so than a dog. It may be that there is just too many dogs all at once for him - maybe try socialising in smaller groups?

But it's not a breed trait that is the issue. Josh is brilliant with 95% of other dogs, big, small etc but it's a hormonal thing, not a breed trait at all. He does get frustrated on lead which can't help the situation.

DeVore

So this week Josh was absolutely good as gold (almost!)... he was considerably less reactive to the other dogs, not once reacting in the class, even when two of them flashed with each other, he turned and looked at me which I have to say was pure gold cos its what we have been training for the last while.

I'm going to try this way first because (like all things dog related) I've gotten as many differing opinions about this as people I've asked. Thats kinda been the way since I got Josh and what I'm realising is that... this is a relationship between me and my dog. We're going to have to work something out that works for both of us. Right now I'll try socialisation but if that doesnt produce results than we'll go the neutering route. That way around seems to me to work better than the other way around, which is kinda irreversible.

I have some friends with dog who I can socialise him in a small group with too occasionally.

BUT, someone did come over to say hi right at the end of the class and I wasnt paying attention and Josh reacted with her dog. So if that was you, I'm really sorry The end of the class and all the commotion and all that took my eye off the ball. I didnt get to distract Josh. So sorry I didnt get a chance to say hi!

There has been a big improvement with Josh over the last 4 weeks so lets just see if that continues...

Anyone else going to the classes in Cloughran?

Knine

DeVore wrote: »

BUT, someone did come over to say hi right at the end of the class and I wasnt paying attention and Josh reacted with her dog. So if that was you, I'm really sorry The end of the class and all the commotion and all that took my eye off the ball. I didnt get to distract Josh. So sorry I didnt get a chance to say hi!

There has been a big improvement with Josh over the last 4 weeks so lets just see if that continues...

Anyone else going to the classes in Cloughran?

That was me I'm also one of the trainers for Ringcraft on a rota basis so when I'm taking a class I will come over and say hello minus the dog.

Whispered

Knine wrote: »

That was me I'm also one of the trainers for Ringcraft on a rota basis so when I'm taking a class I will come over and say hello minus the dog.

You're a she? I had you pegged as a man. You must have manly posting style. :P

Knine

Whispered wrote: »

You're a she? I had you pegged as a man. You must have manly posting style. :P

I'm gonna have to change my posting style :eek:

Whispered

Knine wrote: »

I'm gonna have to change my posting style :eek:

Actually, it's to my shame I think I pegged you as a man because I recall you having dogs or knowing dogs (border terriers maybe?) which I would have grown up with as hunting dogs, therefore "mens" dogs.

borderlinemeath

DeVore wrote: »

So this week Josh was absolutely good as gold (almost!)... he was considerably less reactive to the other dogs, not once reacting in the class, even when two of them flashed with each other, he turned and looked at me which I have to say was pure gold cos its what we have been training for the last while.

Brilliant that he's getting the hang of being in a group on lead. I presume when you say flashed, it's a typo and you meant clashed? Cos I have visions of dogs in trench coats flashing their bits:D

I'm going to try this way first because (like all things dog related) I've gotten as many differing opinions about this as people I've asked. Thats kinda been the way since I got Josh and what I'm realising is that... this is a relationship between me and my dog. We're going to have to work something out that works for both of us. Right now I'll try socialisation but if that doesnt produce results than we'll go the neutering route. That way around seems to me to work better than the other way around, which is kinda irreversible.

Good for you that you're trying all routes, dog ownership isn't a 'one size fits all' kind of thing, what works for one might not work for another.

I have some friends with dog who I can socialise him in a small group with too occasionally.

Are any of them intact males though? It'll be great that Josh will hopefully be able to be calm on lead in a group but make sure it's across the entire spectrum - big, small, male, female, balls, no balls etc.

BUT, someone did come over to say hi right at the end of the class and I wasnt paying attention and Josh reacted with her dog. So if that was you, I'm really sorry The end of the class and all the commotion and all that took my eye off the ball. I didnt get to distract Josh. So sorry I didnt get a chance to say hi!

Ok, so that was Knine. Can I ask you, what type of doggy did you have with you? Was it an intact male? *

There has been a big improvement with Josh over the last 4 weeks so lets just see if that continues...

Anyone else going to the classes in Cloughran?

If it wasn't I'll take back everything I've written about neutering!

Knine

Yes I can assure you of two things.

I don't have balls

My dog does have balls

fatmammycat

You both looked like you were having a good time this evening, Josh is a dote. I watched you both at the end of your session, I was standing with a GSD at the end of the zone. Think what you're doing with that little guy is amazing and he's lucky to have you.

DeVore

He is doing better, and didnt react to the big black unneutered dog in our class today even when he gave him a growly "woof" (more than enough cause for Josh to take it behind the bikesheds ). But then on the way out, just went from happy to wildly-snarly in a flash at another dog.

In terms of training, he's doing a lot better lately and he does want to learn but its like his instincts just over ride certain training. For example, if I have something for him in my fist, he'll go bonkers to get it out of my hand. Licking, scratching, gnawing etc. Tonight, in one hour, I trained him not to do that and the next day he remembered and now happily lies down every time I make a fist with a treat in it. No more gnawing. Same with his whistle... I whistle, he comes, he gets a treat. Now he comes for the whistle. But see if he wants something or has a scent to follow... I can whistle all day. Till I'm blue in the face.

Anyway, so far he's doing pretty good and its early days. Sometimes I look at those people with perfectly groomed , well behaved dogs and then look at Josh and he's tied his paw to his ear with his leash or something. Its like ... *sigh*; must be what parents of kids who arent good at school sports day feel

We'll get there...

borderlinemeath

DeVore wrote: »

He is doing better, and didnt react to the big black unneutered dog in our class today even when he gave him a growly "woof" (more than enough cause for Josh to take it behind the bikesheds ). But then on the way out, just went from happy to wildly-snarly in a flash at another dog.

In terms of training, he's doing a lot better lately and he does want to learn but its like his instincts just over ride certain training. For example, if I have something for him in my fist, he'll go bonkers to get it out of my hand. Licking, scratching, gnawing etc. Tonight, in one hour, I trained him not to do that and the next day he remembered and now happily lies down every time I make a fist with a treat in it. No more gnawing. Same with his whistle... I whistle, he comes, he gets a treat. Now he comes for the whistle. But see if he wants something or has a scent to follow... I can whistle all day. Till I'm blew in the face.

Anyway, so far he's doing pretty good and its early days. Sometimes I look at those people with perfectly groomed , well behaved dogs and then look at Josh and he's tied his paw to his ear with his leash or something. Its like ... *sigh*; must be what parents of kids who arent good at school sports day feel

We'll get there...

Ah I don't think they exist really. I mean my pair are brilliant at putting on a show when there's people here, sitting down, being good, giving paws but when the audience is gone they can act up like a pair of canine demons. People have come in and said "Your dogs are so calm and relaxed" but they don't see them refusing to come out of the sea or Coco insisting in rolling in fresh horse shiite or Benson bleating like a siren at the birds. Once they're happy I don't care if they're the bold child every so often.

ShaShaBear

I LOVE following your updates DeVore. Every word that comes out of your mouth in reference to that dog makes me think there must be some sort of "special" illness that some dogs have in the head, that mine has too.

We named him Shadow, but sometimes I think we should have called him Gump He's a rocket (and I would have loved the opportunity to do agility with him while he was young) and very intelligent (picking up most new tricks at 9 years of age within 5 minutes) but sometimes I'm pretty sure the cheese slid right off his cracker
Neutering did help my boy with his dog aggression to an extent - he was able to mix off-lead with other dogs his own size or larger, irrespective of sex. But unfortunately he can't and won't mix with smaller dogs under any circumstances, which includes puppies. It's down to him getting cornered and attacked by two Cavaliers while he was on a lead when he was younger, and he hasn't trusted them since. Since I can't let him off the lead now, he's started over the past few years to associate the small dog thing with all dogs when he is on the lead. If I thought for one second there was something I could do to help him mix, I'd do it I think it's great you're bringing Josh to classes, and it is obviously helping, but I'd second the neutering, before he reacts a little too dangerously in class.

CBRLizzie

Completely off topic, kinda, but I used to go to Cloughran with my Rottie for training - I did the Shave or Die with a friend of mine (who used to be one of the instructors out there) and that week when I went for training with my friend - 2 skinheads with a rottie - No-one would talk to us, it was hilarious but sad too, so many people judge a book by the cover, I did think out there people would know its not just hooligans who have rotties, especially a friendly mentler like I had.