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Waterford City Outlet?

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24

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    #32
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    tankbarry wrote: »
    Maybe Sully you should go to the council that you think are doing a good job and tell them maybe if they drop the rates a bit it might help !

    There doing a good job in part by allowing the car parks they own be free from 5pm on a Friday. Its better than not helping at all. There has also been work done in the Viking Triangle by the council, and the general improvements of this area, has to be welcomed.

    The rates no council seems willing to budge on.


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    #33
    ziedth
    Registered Users Posts: 9,081 ✭✭✭ziedth


    Rates are just a joke really,

    The company I work for had a unit(s) picked and ready to roll that would have created 25/30 jobs in a town that's been hammered by unemployment. Only thing is head office (English company) wouldnt sign off on it till the rates were dropped by a small percentage.

    This council in question wouldnt budge and the company pulled out. I can't see the logic in it ya know?


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    #34
    CardBordWindow
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭CardBordWindow


    It's simple maths.
    X - 10% > 0

    where x is current ridiculous rate

    Better to be getting something, than nothing.


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    #35
    spankmemunkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭spankmemunkey


    ziedth wrote: »
    Rates are just a joke really,

    The company I work for had a unit(s) picked and ready to roll that would have created 25/30 jobs in a town that's been hammered by unemployment. Only thing is head office (English company) wouldnt sign off on it till the rates were dropped by a small percentage.

    This council in question wouldnt budge and the company pulled out. I can't see the logic in it ya know?

    The only logic i can see in it is if they give one company reduced rates then other companies would get wind of it and they would also want rates reduced, how many companies pay rates in Waterford? add up the cost to the council for blanket rate cuts? Im not agreeing or disagreeing with you just trying to see what their thinking on a rate cut might be.

    Just to ask all again, has NOEL FRISBY got anything to do with this i thought it was he who bought the Waterford Crystal lands?


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    #36
    Max Powers
    Registered Users Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    Dublin City Council have just agreed to reform their rates system this week. Special rates for start up businesses etc. Its clear this is a massive issue for retailers. WCC need to cut waste expenditure (training, junkets, etc) for councillors, reduce cost and number of councillors too, the work they do could be improved efficiency wise too or outsourced. the LPT should be used to reduce cost of business rates too so at least by paying it we might be helping businesses and jobs in our area, something we can ll buy into.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-city-council-commercial-rates-927232-May2013/


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    #37
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    We might (hopefully) see a different approach to running the council when they merge.


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    #38
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Sully wrote: »
    We might (hopefully) see a different approach to running the council when they merge.


    I doubt it. The same issues exist in the County and it has been worse for dubious planning and corruption. Waterford City council might not be perfect but they are light years ahead of the county. And it should be mentioned here that neighbouring county coucils that are responsible for Ferrybank SC and Butlersown retail park.


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    #39
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    I doubt it. The same issues exist in the County and it has been worse for dubious planning and corruption. Waterford City council might not be perfect but they are light years ahead of the county. And it should be mentioned here that neighbouring county coucils that are responsible for Ferrybank SC and Butlersown retail park.

    That's a fair point. But as we have seen, if you go objecting to planning your given an unfair label. Even if you are proved correct by the planning authorities.


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    #40
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    Sully wrote: »
    We might (hopefully) see a different approach to running the council when they merge.

    Other than the actual merging of the councils what initiatives are they carrying out to make it a better system??


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    #41
    gowley
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭gowley


    TheGormog wrote: »
    Parker Green are the owners/developers of the Ferrybank shopping centre. Bertie is on the board of directors.

    the ferrybank centre was owned by a company called holtglen which went into liquidation when some of their anchor tenants pulled out due to the downturn. dunnes stores were the main anchor and nama took it over and sued for 21.6 million and won.


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    #42
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    O Riain wrote: »
    Other than the actual merging of the councils what initiatives are they carrying out to make it a better system??

    I was more thinking that one body would be better for city and county, but we will have to see.


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    #43
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    Sully wrote: »
    I was more thinking that one body would be better for city and county, but we will have to see.

    Thats not a very good reason for assuming it will work better in fairness.


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    #44
    Hoffmans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭Hoffmans


    something stinks about this craic, seen they were involved in the ferrybank white elephant centre (problally the most expensive public library in europe) why dont they make that their out of town centre and leave the fields alone out the cork road....


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    #45
    gowley
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭gowley


    Hoffmans wrote: »
    something stinks about this craic, seen they were involved in the ferrybank white elephant centre (problally the most expensive public library in europe) why dont they make that their out of town centre and leave the fields alone out the cork road....

    they werent involved in building the ferrybank centre. as stated earlier this was developed by holtglen and went bust because dunnes stores the anchor tenant pulled out. due to this holtglen went into nama and dunnes were successfully sued by nama for 21.6 million in december 2012


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    #46
    Junior
    Registered Users Posts: 3,203 ✭✭✭Junior


    ziedth wrote: »
    Rates are just a joke really,

    The company I work for had a unit(s) picked and ready to roll that would have created 25/30 jobs in a town that's been hammered by unemployment. Only thing is head office (English company) wouldnt sign off on it till the rates were dropped by a small percentage.

    This council in question wouldnt budge and the company pulled out. I can't see the logic in it ya know?


    I can't understand the mentality in this country at all, we'd bend over backwards to allow Apple, etc to pay minimal taxes, yet we screw any smal business that tries to start up at any given turn and tie them in rates/red tape.


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    #47
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Junior wrote: »
    I can't understand the mentality in this country at all, we'd bend over backwards to allow Apple, etc to pay minimal taxes, yet we screw any smal business that tries to start up at any given turn and tie them in rates/red tape.

    The Apple story is being denied by the government and by Apple. The rates they got were many many many years ago in a scheme that's gone a good while, if I heard correctly on the radio.

    But it does make you wonder. The big players are needed and we need to offer them an incentive to start. But surely we should be doing some incentives for smaller businesses also?


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    #48
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Well I can see this shaping up to be vicious and nasty much like Newgate. The thing we have to remember is this that the land will be developed sooner or later.So the idea that they will remain fields forever is just not going to happen. Whoever bought the land is going to want a return on it. If it is in NAMA they will too. If it is not in NAMA it may well end up there eventually if something is not done with it.

    This is not the same developer that built Ferrybank.

    Bertie Aherns involvement is probably incidental maybe negligible. He was appointed in 2008 just before the crisis unfolded maybe as a PR exercise. I don't know but I would bet if Parker Green could go back in time to undo this they would.

    I would hope that people would be allowed do their job and judge the thing on its merits or lack of them. But this wont happen as we know the usual idealogs will get involved.


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    #49
    Max Powers
    Registered Users Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    Well I can see this shaping up to be vicious and nasty much like Newgate. The thing we have to remember is this that the land will be developed sooner or later.So the idea that they will remain fields forever is just not going to happen. Whoever bought the land is going to want a return on it. If it is in NAMA they will too. If it is not in NAMA it may well end up there eventually if something is not done with it.

    This is not the same developer that built Ferrybank.

    Bertie Aherns involvement is probably incidental maybe negligible. He was appointed in 2008 just before the crisis unfolded maybe as a PR exercise. I don't know but I would bet if Parker Green could go back in time to undo this they would.

    I would hope that people would be allowed do their job and judge the thing on its merits or lack of them. But this wont happen as we know the usual idealogs will get involved.

    i think no matter what way you look at it, setting up a shopping centre on the outskirts of Waterford will be very bad for Waterford City retail.


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    #50
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Max Powers wrote: »
    i think no matter what way you look at it, setting up a shopping centre on the outskirts of Waterford will be very bad for Waterford City retail.


    Why exactly?


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    #51
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Funnily enough, I had a tourist come up to me in Tramore today. A gentlemen in his late 70s from Kerry. He was commenting on the investment pumped into the Viking Triangle and he was commenting that the rest of the place isn't doing as well. He comes here very 6 months and was apparently speaking with a business owner who felt that these investments are taking away from the city center.

    I'm not sure there is much room left in our city center for retail. An outlet like the one in Kildare would have potential of bringing more people into Waterford but a shuttle bus would be needed.


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    #52
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Sully wrote: »
    Funnily enough, I had a tourist come up to me in Tramore today. A gentlemen in his late 70s from Kerry. He was commenting on the investment pumped into the Viking Triangle and he was commenting that the rest of the place isn't doing as well. He comes here very 6 months and was apparently speaking with a business owner who felt that these investments are taking away from the city center.

    I'm not sure there is much room left in our city center for retail. An outlet like the one in Kildare would have potential of bringing more people into Waterford but a shuttle bus would be needed.


    To be fair to Max Powers I think he is right in the sense of protecting the city centre.And a Kildare Village outlet could be a disaster for the city centre by moving retail footfall out to the suburbs. But another shopping centre does not necessarily mean that that. The current strategy is carefully crafted. White Goods,Electronics and supermarkets are ok for suburban. But the higher end retail like clothing and jewellers should be encouraged in the city centre. And incidentally there is approximately 400000 sg ft of potential new retail space in the city centre.


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    #53
    decies
    Registered Users Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭decies


    Good points from above a well known menswear owner mentioned , all the emphasis on the Viking triangle . They're heavily promoting Friday night shopping on the city centre business Facebook page at the moment. From the two posts above now!!


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    #54
    Dicky Pride
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭Dicky Pride


    Bertie was only involved until 2010


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    #55
    sandin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭sandin


    Here's the details http://www.parkergreen.com/media/uploads/Waterford%20City%20Outlet%20Information%20Brochure.pdf

    Also Parker Green operate the Fairgreen centre in Carlow and the Quays in Newry.

    Can't see a similar operation to Kildare Village going in, but a lower priced model probably could work and that's what they seem to be proposing - they mention Cotton Traders, Austin Reed and Pavers - all Outlet specific stores and not at the premium end of the market.


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    #56
    Max Powers
    Registered Users Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    Why exactly?

    Thought it was obvious: Because quite simply, people who fancy a look around the shops will just drive to that place instead and drive back home, making the city centre quieter, more shops close, less people in restaurants etc etc


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    #57
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Max Powers wrote: »
    Thought it was obvious: Because quite simply, people who fancy a look around the shops will just drive to that place instead and drive back home, making the city centre quieter, more shops close, less people in restaurants etc etc


    Yes that is it in a nutshell but there are other things to consider and it is impossible to do politically without the neighbouring authorities co-operating and they fall well short on that front. Hence Ferrybank SC and Butlerstown retail park. I agree with your sentiment. But incidentally I was asking is to see if your reasoning was based on the perception that spending power of the city population cannot support it. That is a line that keeps being trotted out by opponents of certain proposals in the city. And one that has little or nothing to do with the issue. If you are interested in this stuff here is a good read.

    http://www.amazon.com/American-Cities-Anniversary-Modern-Library/dp/0679644334/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1370028297&sr=1-1&keywords=the+death+of+the+american+city

    The author of this book definitely has a social conscience and is left wing.But interestingly her arguments do not support the opponents of the green and left wing activists in Waterford and Elsewhere who seem to think their au fait with progressive ideas.


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    #58
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    Max Powers wrote: »
    Thought it was obvious: Because quite simply, people who fancy a look around the shops will just drive to that place instead and drive back home, making the city centre quieter, more shops close, less people in restaurants etc etc

    On the money that

    What will happen is the classic donut...
    Everything nice and sweet around an empty centre

    Many cities in the US suffer hugely from this and are trying to correct the problem... Waterford shud stop this before it happens


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    #59
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    robtri wrote: »
    On the money that

    What will happen is the classic donut...
    Everything nice and sweet around an empty centre

    Many cities in the US suffer hugely from this and are trying to correct the problem... Waterford shud stop this before it happens

    But this is one of the problems. You've just blurted out a catchphrase i.e "classic donut". It depends on what is going in there. An outlet selling clothing would not be good imo. But that does not mean a development would be bad if the correct retail is restricted to a certain type. i.e furniture and electrical goods maybe a supermarket and some other things. Then the mid to higher value stuff in the city centre along with the museums resteraunts and a varity of other businesses that will keep a steady footfall for most of the day. The main problem that will emerge here imo will be people opposing any development will hide behind the cause of proper development to obstruct it and the whole thing turning into another political football like Newgate. While we were navel gazing over that, Ferrybank SC (which has to be one of the largest and most modern derelict buildings in Ireland and is on our doorstep) was contstructed. Likewise Butlerstown retail park which when TK Maxx was there was contributing to the very donut you are talking about. As well as making similar developments in the six cross roads unviable.


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    #60
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    But this is one of the problems. You've just blurted out a catchphrase i.e "classic donut". It depends on what is going in there. An outlet selling clothing would not be good imo. But that does not mean a development would be bad if the correct retail is restricted to a certain type. i.e furniture and electrical goods maybe a supermarket and some other things. Then the mid to higher value stuff in the city centre along with the museums resteraunts and a varity of other businesses that will keep a steady footfall for most of the day. The main problem that will emerge here imo will be people opposing any development will hide behind the cause of proper development to obstruct it and the whole thing turning into another political football like Newgate. While we were navel gazing over that, Ferrybank SC (which has to be one of the largest and most modern derelict buildings in Ireland and is on our doorstep) was contstructed. Likewise Butlerstown retail park which when TK Maxx was there was contributing to the very donut you are talking about. As well as making similar developments in the six cross roads unviable.

    Its not just a catchphrase its a real issue facing many towns and cities, pushing retail stuff out of the city, reduces traffic in the city and it dies, waterford is big enough and enough soace to house virtually all of the retails stuff in the city areas.


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    #61
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    robtri wrote: »
    Its not just a catchphrase its a real issue facing many towns and cities, pushing retail stuff out of the city, reduces traffic in the city and it dies, waterford is big enough and enough soace to house virtually all of the retails stuff in the city areas.


    I never said it wasn't an issue. It is a misunderstood and complex one. And the problem is when the issue is reduced to a catchphrase such as donut city. It creates the impression that all suburban development is bad and all city centre development is good.. It isn't. Concentreting retail development in the city centre in its entirety is just as bad as urban sprawl. You would end up with a 9-5 city centre with they same donut effect in the evening. And it is interesting that you are using the phrase now and I am questioning your accuracy of your use of it. Because I can say with confidence that I was the first one to use that phrase on this forum back when the Newgate development started to be debated here and Brendan McCann's opposition to it and everything else that was propposed for Waterford around that time. My arguement was that without the development in Newgate a donut city was a real danger if things proceeded as they were at the time. When phrases like this end up in the public conscience it is almost certainly that they become misunderstood and over simplified which is what you are doing now. The same thing happens with lots of other ideas,climate change being a prime example or sustainable development.


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