PRTB - Determination Order

Uriel.

Hi Folks,
I was just looking for some advice and/or insight, if anyone has any experience of getting a determination order in their favour.

My GF just managed to get one against her previous LL for a number of matters including unlawful part retention of her deposit.

She previously presented her case to the PRTB adjudicator. It seems the LL never bothered to engage - didn't appear at the hearing and didn't appeal the initial judgment. My GF hasn't heard from him since she left the property. She doesn't have his current address. The property in question has now gone sale agreed and it would appear that it was a forced sale by the banks.

Anyway, she just received the official determination order plus a covering note outlining the various offences and consequences for non-compliance. I fully expect that she will not hear from the LL. The letter outlines that while the PRTB may commence enforcement proceedings they only take on a few cases per year due to resource issues, but they kindly outline that she may seek to enforce herself (and that they would provided her with the case documents).

Has anyone had experience of trying to get the PRTB to enforce or tried to enforce themselves? The money in the determination order is large enough, well over €1,000. But it may cost her a fortune with solicitor and barrister and court expenses in trying to enforce it and she may never see any of the money in the end.

Of course the ideal thing would be for the PRTB to do the enforcement for her, but judging by the tone of the letter, it seems unlikely tbh

Any advice would be great.

Cheers

D3PO

The PRTB cannot enforce a determination order unfortunately as theyahve no legal powers to do so, they can only apply sanctions to the LL for non compliance. If the LL doesn't play ball she will have to go the legal route to have it enforced.

I'm not sure but logic would dictate that any legal costs incurred could & should be awarded in the case she has to go that route, but I really don't know.

Uriel.

Thanks for the reply.

In regards to PRTB enforcement, I meant in the context of them taking the case on her behalf to the courts (and them bearing the initial costs). They outline that they can and do do this in their letter, but that they only do so in limited circumstances.

I would imagine that if she won her case in the courts (don't see any reason why she wouldn't) costs would be awarded, but the difficulty is it will probably cost another €500+ and then there's no guarantee that she'll ever see any of the money.

It's a tricky situation. Perhaps she just has to decide whether it is worth the risk to pursue further. Like for everyone, money is tight and legal costs could be done without at the moment.

Bigcheeze

Can the Sheriff be used to enforce a PRTB order? That would be the cheapest option if it's possible.

They should change the law so that PRTB orders attach to the property in question and therefore it could not be sold until settled.

Edit: It appears you can't use the Sheriff. PRTB enforcing the order may be the only option or it could be good money after bad.

Uriel.

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Can the Sheriff be used to enforce a PRTB order? That would be the cheapest option if it's possible.

They should change the law so that PRTB orders attach to the property in question and therefore it could not be sold until settled.

My understanding is that a judge has to make an order for the Sheriff to intervene. House is already sale agreed, so by the time there was a hearing and judgment it wouldn't be able to attach to the property.

edanto

The Sale Agreed sign might actually work in your favour. Get some advice from a solicitor, but my (uneducated) guess would be:

There's always a delay between Sale Agreed and contracts signed, so a registered letter to the estate agent saying that:

(a) there is a PRTB order against the current owner in the amount of X

(b) you intend to bring prompt proceedings against the owner and have the charges attached to the property

(c) you will be informing the bank and seeking to delay the sale until the debt due is paid

At that stage, the solicitor will be able to find out which bank has the mortgage, so send them a similar letter. At this point, you've only shelled out for 2 solicitors letters and you might find the landlord (via the estate agent) suddenly willing to settle the PRTB judgement.

D3PO

edanto wrote: »

The Sale Agreed sign might actually work in your favour. Get some advice from a solicitor, but my (uneducated) guess would be:

There's always a delay between Sale Agreed and contracts signed, so a registered letter to the estate agent saying that:

(a) there is a PRTB order against the current owner in the amount of X

(b) you intend to bring prompt proceedings against the owner and have the charges attached to the property

(c) you will be informing the bank and seeking to delay the sale until the debt due is paid

At that stage, the solicitor will be able to find out which bank has the mortgage, so send them a similar letter. At this point, you've only shelled out for 2 solicitors letters and you might find the landlord (via the estate agent) suddenly willing to settle the PRTB judgement.

problem is you don't have the ability to do anything to affect the sale solicitors letter or not. The bank wont stop the sale because you inform them as they will want as little as anything to do with the situation.

Without legallyy getting a charge put on the property which you wont do in the time it takes to complete the sale, your hands are tied.

edanto

Granted, that may be true.

But there may be legal options - it might be possible to get an injunction quickly to stop the sale of the house. You don't necessarily have to go that route, but a serious solicitors letter making that threat (assuming you're prepared and funded to go through with it) might get your gfs money (plus costs) back.

You hear in the news about injunctions made to stop publication of a specific new story etc - that may get expensive very quickly, but there must be some legal route than can throw a spanner in the works of the sale.

It would seem reasonable (to me) to add in a hefty claim for your own time to chase this debt.

D3PO

injunctions are expensive to get though. The cost of which would negate any return due to you for a retained deposit.

edanto

No, the costs would all be returned once the LL loses the case.

The point is that injunctions are expensive to fight, especially when the LL/bank have no chance of getting their costs back, since the LL is so clearly in the wrong. It might be a question of having/not having the time to chase this debt with any enthusiasm. If the OP has the time, then go all out.

If it involves taking time off work, tapping into savings (or even getting a loan), then charge the LL for all those things. You'd guess that things aren't going great for the LL and maybe the bank is selling the property, so that's a pity for the LL, but it's no excuse to illegally hold back a deposit and it's time to get a solicitor writing stern letters.

I'd be interested to know the OP thinks of the idea.

D3PO

edanto wrote: »

No, the costs would all be returned once the LL loses the case.

The point is that injunctions are expensive to fight, especially when the LL/bank have no chance of getting their costs back, since the LL is so clearly in the wrong. It might be a question of having/not having the time to chase this debt with any enthusiasm. If the OP has the time, then go all out.

If it involves taking time off work, tapping into savings (or even getting a loan), then charge the LL for all those things. You'd guess that things aren't going great for the LL and maybe the bank is selling the property, so that's a pity for the LL, but it's no excuse to illegally hold back a deposit and it's time to get a solicitor writing stern letters.

I'd be interested to know the OP thinks of the idea.

Id imagine that many tenants don't have the means to get an injunction though, assuming one would even be granted which I'm not convinced would happen as the debt / deposit owed is completely independent of the house sale.

So there is no guarantee that the OP in this example would get the cost of the injunction back.

These kind of legal challenges are the kind of things Id love to do if I were a millionare just so I could set many legal precedents for the little guy to follow. Problem is that that is essentially what you need , somebody who will put themselves out there and run the risk to try and create clarity and routes to justice for the average joe soap.

Uriel.

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies and the interesting discussion.

Unfortunately, money is tight at the moment and I really can't see my GF going down the road of an expensive legal challenge especially where the end result (particularly in relation to costs) is uncertain.

We both have a strong belief that she is unlikely to see any of her money, but at the same time don't want to write it off completely without some challenge.

I can't see her applying for an injunction in all honesty. At this stage, most likely she will be requesting the PRTB to undertake the enforcement of the order through the court. We expect to get a "sorry no can do, due to resources response". We will then request the case files and try to decide what to do next and make a decision as to whether it is worth spending money to go to the Circuit Court. Perhaps, we will write to the Landlord and see if that brings any response, though I doubt it, to be honest.

JenL

I got a determination order granted in my favour against an ex- landlord for deposit retention back in 2010. The ex-landlord never paid and I had considered the circuit court. I've left it on the long finger to be honest but to my surprise the PRTB called me two weeks ago to see if it had been sorted. I told them it hadn't and they said they will put it forward to the committee later this month to see if they can fund it to go to court. I really should have brought it to court myself as I was told by a solicitor friend that it was a clear cut case and wouldn't be necessary to have a solicitor in court. If they decide not to go ahead I will take it further myself.

whippet

The problem with the PRTB is that regardless of what it rules; no one has to abide by these decisions ... neither LL or Tenant. The most pointless quango ever.

D3PO

JenL wrote: »

I got a determination order granted in my favour against an ex- landlord for deposit retention back in 2010. The ex-landlord never paid and I had considered the circuit court. I've left it on the long finger to be honest but to my surprise the PRTB called me two weeks ago to see if it had been sorted. I told them it hadn't and they said they will put it forward to the committee later this month to see if they can fund it to go to court. I really should have brought it to court myself as I was told by a solicitor friend that it was a clear cut case and wouldn't be necessary to have a solicitor in court. If they decide not to go ahead I will take it further myself.

even with that its three years later and then how long till they sort the legal part ? 4 years plus to get your deposit back, its a farce and many landlords know it unfortunately.

Most people wont pursue it because of this and unfortunately they know that. The deposit situation in this country is a joke.

The PRTB are pretty much toothless and without a lot of reform are not really fit for purpose.

Kosseegan

edanto wrote: »

No, the costs would all be returned once the LL loses the case.

The point is that injunctions are expensive to fight, especially when the LL/bank have no chance of getting their costs back, since the LL is so clearly in the wrong. It might be a question of having/not having the time to chase this debt with any enthusiasm. If the OP has the time, then go all out.

If it involves taking time off work, tapping into savings (or even getting a loan), then charge the LL for all those things. You'd guess that things aren't going great for the LL and maybe the bank is selling the property, so that's a pity for the LL, but it's no excuse to illegally hold back a deposit and it's time to get a solicitor writing stern letters.

I'd be interested to know the OP thinks of the idea.

This is ludicrous. It would cost about 20k up front to get an injunction and it would be unlikely to succeed. The order against the landlord is in personam it gives no interest in the house. If it had been converted to a a judgement then a judgment mortgage could have been registered which would have to be satisfied before the sale would close. If uit is the bank selling as mortgagee in possession, even that would not happen.
The cheapest thing to do is summons the landlord.to the District Court which costs €10 and get him convicted.

Uriel.

JenL wrote: »

I got a determination order granted in my favour against an ex- landlord for deposit retention back in 2010. The ex-landlord never paid and I had considered the circuit court. I've left it on the long finger to be honest but to my surprise the PRTB called me two weeks ago to see if it had been sorted. I told them it hadn't and they said they will put it forward to the committee later this month to see if they can fund it to go to court. I really should have brought it to court myself as I was told by a solicitor friend that it was a clear cut case and wouldn't be necessary to have a solicitor in court. If they decide not to go ahead I will take it further myself.

Is there not a statute of limitations on these things? I haven't checked the 2004 Act yet. Must do so later

whippet

Kosseegan wrote: »

The cheapest thing to do is summons the landlord.to the District Court which costs €10 and get him convicted.

The amount of false information on these boards about what is and isn't possible is unreal.

The leglislation giving effect to the PRTB and thus giving the determination order allows recourse only to the circuit court - not a cheap place to be


Where the terms of a Determination Order have not been complied with within the specified timeframe, a party can opt to enforce their own Determination Order through the Circuit Court under Section 124 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. Alternatively a party can apply to the PRTB to initiate enforcement proceedings against the other party. Such proceedings can involve Court proceedings against a non-compliant party, which could result in a criminal conviction being secured against them by the PRTB. All judgements are registered and thus are likely to affect the person’s credit rating, employment prospects and visas for foreign travel.

BostonB

I agree its a farce for the tenant, but just for balance its a farce for the LL trying to recover money too.

The system is unworkable from both points of view.

Kosseegan

whippet wrote: »

The amount of false information on these boards about what is and isn't possible is unreal.

Look in mirror and see one of the culprits.

whippet wrote: »

The leglislation giving effect to the PRTB and thus giving the determination order allows recourse only to the circuit court - not a cheap place to be

Wrong. Prosecutions under section 126 of the RTA are heard in the District Court. Cost of stamping summons €10.

whippet wrote: »

Where the terms of a Determination Order have not been complied with within the specified timeframe, a party can opt to enforce their own Determination Order through the Circuit Court under Section 124 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. Alternatively a party can apply to the PRTB to initiate enforcement proceedings against the other party. Such proceedings can involve Court proceedings against a non-compliant party, which could result in a criminal conviction being secured against them by the PRTB. All judgements are registered and thus are likely to affect the person’s credit rating, employment prospects and visas for foreign travel.

The proceedings under Section 124 merely result in a judgment not a conviction. The conviction is obtained under section 126.
Judgments have no consequences for foreign travel.

The District Court is far cheaper than the Section 124 proceedings in the Circuit Court. A conviction may have consequences for foreign travel.

Richard Dower

BostonB wrote: »

I agree its a farce for the tenant, but just for balance its a farce for the LL trying to recover money too.

The system is unworkable from both points of view.

I think the original poster is peeing against the wind, i doubt he'll ever recover the money....it might cost more to chase the LL down then to just get on with your life and learn from the experience.

punksanders

I found myself in a very similar situation in July 2009 when our deposit was retained by the landlord. An enforcement order was made in July 2010 and we received the same letter that the OP did outlining the difficult economic circumstances the PRTB found itself in.

The PRTB was set up to remove tenancy disputes from the small claims court. Unfortunately it has no powers to enforce anything. According to the Residential Tenancies Act it is the Circuit Court that enforces enforcement orders made by the PRTB.

Perhaps it is the case though that a District Court Registrar would accept the case. It seems really cut-and-dry. A binding order is made in your favour, all you need is for the other guy to pay up. You should rightfully get any costs incurred awarded to you by the judge as the person who has ignored the binding order is very very much in the wrong.

Pawwed Rig

The Op can apply for legal aid if they do not want to use the PRTB. Legal aid is easier to get than you might believe.
The PRTB will take 1.5 years plus before they will even make a decision on whether to take the case or not.

Uriel.

punksanders wrote: »

I found myself in a very similar situation in July 2009 when our deposit was retained by the landlord. An enforcement order was made in July 2010 and we received the same letter that the OP did outlining the difficult economic circumstances the PRTB found itself in.

The PRTB was set up to remove tenancy disputes from the small claims court. Unfortunately it has no powers to enforce anything. According to the Residential Tenancies Act it is the Circuit Court that enforces enforcement orders made by the PRTB.

Perhaps it is the case though that a District Court Registrar would accept the case. It seems really cut-and-dry. A binding order is made in your favour, all you need is for the other guy to pay up. You should rightfully get any costs incurred awarded to you by the judge as the person who has ignored the binding order is very very much in the wrong.

OP here, do you mind me asking if you were ever successful in recovering any of the money owed to you.

We haven't done much on the matter since, save for sending a registered letter to the LL's solicitor requesting payment within 30 days or the matter will be escalated. I don't expect it to achieve anything. Just wanted something to show either the PRTB or the Court (or both as the case may be) that some effort was made from our side to recover.

Uriel.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

The Op can apply for legal aid if they do not want to use the PRTB. Legal aid is easier to get than you might believe.
The PRTB will take 1.5 years plus before they will even make a decision on whether to take the case or not.

might look into that. Didn't think it was available for civil actions.

punksanders

Uriel. wrote: »

OP here, do you mind me asking if you were ever successful in recovering any of the money owed to you.

We haven't done much on the matter since, save for sending a registered letter to the LL's solicitor requesting payment within 30 days or the matter will be escalated. I don't expect it to achieve anything. Just wanted something to show either the PRTB or the Court (or both as the case may be) that some effort was made from our side to recover.

I have left it with the 'enforcement' section of the PRTB, in honesty because of fear of incurring a massive legal bill. I am relocating to the UK at the end of the month so I am regretting slightly not having taken the case myself through my own solicitor. What was different about my case was that the guy is a builder operating as a sole trader in Cork and these guys have become expert at making themselves seem financially poor on paper which could have lead to there being an award in my favour paid in monthly instalments of 2.50 for the next 600 years

RATM

If this is an open and shut case then the OP could consider going it alone to avoid the risk of legal bills. I am not sure what the stamping fee is in the Circuit Court but think it is around €20 in the District Court so that it about all it should really cost. You pay the money and submit the forms and wait for a hearing date at which point your girlfriend needs to submit all relevant documents and show up on the day to plead her case.

The only two ways out for the landlord are if a) he claims he never received any PRTB correspondence (walking on thin ice in front of any judge, even more so if they use registered post) or b) he has already filed for bankruptcy in which case his bank will be a preferential creditor to you and the money is gone.

Uriel.

Surprisingly good news to report.

Having sent the letter to the solicitor in question, they came back to say that they no longer represent the LL but kindly provided the contact details for his new solicitor.

We wrote to them and within 15 days a two line cover letter was returned along with a cheque (from the solicitor) for the full amount of the determination order.

My GF is delighted, as am I, but seriously surprised at the same time.

I was dreading having to go down the legal route.

Thanks to all for the advice.

Pawwed Rig

Uriel. wrote: »

We wrote to them and within 15 days a two line cover letter was returned along with a cheque (from the solicitor) for the full amount of the determination order.

Nice 1.
The system is like a Commodore 64. It takes a long time to load and sometimes there are random errors that noone understands but every now and then, eventually, you get to play.

edanto

That's great news. From the LLs point of view, the risk of interfering with the house sale was too great I'd say, far cheaper to settle debt with your GF. Hope the cheque from them covrred your solicitor/personal time costs.

Uriel.

edanto wrote: »

That's great news. From the LLs point of view, the risk of interfering with the house sale was too great I'd say, far cheaper to settle debt with your GF. Hope the cheque from them covrred your solicitor/personal time costs.

There was not costs really in the end save for the cost of sending two registered letters. We didn't get to the point of engaging legal representation. I am a law student myself and while I am a long way away from being legally competent, I was able to draft the letter myself and it seems to have worked.