Provincial Schools Cups 2013-2014 [MOD NOTE POST 1]

.ak

Can't really blame him for not picking up where he left off pre-break, especially when your legs are your primary weapon as a back player. Having said that, I heard he was decent in the B&I knock out games.

FR2

He'll be fine! All happened a bit quick last season and injury clearly didn't help. So decent backs in the Academy line up, but really need to see them push on in year 2 & 3. B & I cup should be the minimum for these players.

ormond lad

CGD wrote: »

Have to agree with jägerscout he is a bit over hyped and has regressed a little not impressive lately. Needs to improve and kick on this season still a young lad potential is there just needs to improve mentally and believe in himself big year ahead for him!

don't think he has regressed. He got a call up out of the blue to play a small bit of pro12 and when back after a leg injury he didn't play to some peoples expectations for the 20s. He's underage again this season and has plenty of potential.

Anyway to the interpros. how do people see the interpros at under 18 schools and under 19 going?
Leinster to dominate both or will someone else challenge?

JagerScout

under 18 is a complete toss up really
under 19, should be leinster but a very large portion of that group have skipped ahead to u20 level.

Leinster5

For the 20's, I originally said Leinster would win it comfortably, but since Dooley & Leavy aren't playing, I wouldn't be as confident. Connacht will have a very strong pack, but I don't know much of their backline bar Rory Parata. Munster are the same except don't have as much talent in their pack.

FR2

JagerScout wrote: »

under 18 is a complete toss up really
under 19, should be leinster but a very large portion of that group have skipped ahead to u20 level.

Leinster will win the schools as per norm! Can't remember the last time they didn't. They were so far ahead last year that despite the call ups, they should shade the 19's also. At 20's Connacht and Ulster travel to Leinster which is an advantage, but I'm going for a Connacht win overall. Wish there was more squad info available, would help to generate interest (gate)

rughug

The u18 Leinster schools play the u18 Leinster clubs at Wanderers this afternoon at 3pm.

lurtz

Dardis was with the seniors today

CGD

lurtz wrote: »

Dardis was with the seniors today

I would think he is a long way way off physically from playing with the seniors probably just got him involved to keep him keen but isa position that needs strenghtening

.ak

CGD wrote: »

I would think he is a long way way off physically from playing with the seniors probably just got him involved to keep him keen but isa position that needs strenghtening

Fantastic pun, really.

Leinster5

Supposedly Leinster have prevented Richie Allen joining up with Connacht 20s even though he was dropped by Leinster 20s and has already trained with Connacht 20s. Anyone have any details on this ?

JagerScout

any idea how the schools clubs game went

its_phil

Leinster5 wrote: »

Supposedly Leinster have prevented Richie Allen joining up with Connacht 20s even though he was dropped by Leinster 20s and has already trained with Connacht 20s. Anyone have any details on this ?

Really? Shame on Leinster if that is true. Couldn't be though just sound so childish and tribal.

Leinster5

its_phil wrote: »

Really? Shame on Leinster if that is true. Couldn't be though just sound so childish and tribal.

Got confirmation on this tonight. Absolute disgrace really. Very curious to find out the full story as it's a pity that an underage player is getting the raw deal.

Hagz

Have to say I don't believe it. What power do Leinster have over a 19 year old? If he wants to go to Connacht and Connacht are happy to see him, then I fail to see what Leinster can do about it.

Tox56

Leinster5 wrote: »

Got confirmation on this tonight. Absolute disgrace really. Very curious to find out the full story as it's a pity that an underage player is getting the raw deal.

I have a hard time believing Leinster would (or could) prevent an out of favour underage player from moving to a different province considering how frequently it happens (with all provinces but the Leinster-Connacht route is particularly common). If this is true there must be a lot more to it

Stanza2

I agree, don't see how they could stop him from playing with Connacht. If he was a player who was under contract maybe, just do not believe that they could stop him otherwise, nor do I believe that Leinster who have an enormous pool of great talent would try to keep a player back from improving themselves. Every province would want what is best for young Irish players. Lots of players who are cut from Leinster go to Connacht, why would this be any different?

Leinster5

From what I heard(and this is from a coach in the Leinster set-up) is that Leinster didn't want Allen playing for Connacht because he'd already trained with Leinster for a month and was needed if there was an injury. He also said his former coach phoned Connacht to complain and prevent him playing for them. I doubt my mate would lie about this stuff, but Allen is 100 percent no longer training with Connacht.

its_phil

An absolute disgrace. I'd love to see some media spotlight given to this.

JagerScout

its_phil wrote: »

An absolute disgrace. I'd love to see some media spotlight given to this.

:rolleyes: save your feigned outrage

its_phil

JagerScout wrote: »

:rolleyes: save your feigned outrage

Excuse me? What are you saying?

Hagz

I wouldn't dish out terms like disgrace until there's been some form of clarification. As solid as Leinster5's info has been up till now, this does have a slight chinese whispers theme to it.

Leinster5

Hagz wrote: »

I wouldn't dish out terms like disgrace until there's been some form of clarification. As solid as Leinster5's info has been up till now, this does have a slight chinese whispers theme to it.

I'll get full clarification tomorrow, but I'm almost certain this is the truth.

thetruth_time

FR2 wrote: »

Leinster will win the schools as per norm! Can't remember the last time they didn't. They were so far ahead last year that despite the call ups, they should shade the 19's also. At 20's Connacht and Ulster travel to Leinster which is an advantage, but I'm going for a Connacht win overall. Wish there was more squad info available, would help to generate interest (gate)

Anybody know the result from the Leinster u18 clubs v Leinster u18 Schools game? Cheers

CGD

Leinster5 wrote: »

I'll get full clarification tomorrow, but I'm almost certain this is the truth.

Would be more likely that IRFU intervened if anything did in fact happen. There has been a long tradition of failed Leinster players going to Connacht and the fact that a few have also embarassed Leinster by playing better and out performing the lads they were dropped for might be the real truth.

If a lad is dropped by a province at a non professional level such as the 20's they can not prevent him for going to Connacht or any other province for that matter. Actually thinking more about it, more likely that he would have been dropped from Leinster sub-academy if he went to Connacht which would be well with in Leinsters rights and he probably didn't want to give that up and went home

Tox56

its_phil wrote: »

Excuse me? What are you saying?

Don't believe everything you read on a rugby forum, particularly on the topic of underage players, is definitely applicable in this case.

If the kid has been dropped from Leinster, they have no control over him, he can do what he likes

BigHeel

thetruth_time wrote: »

Anybody know the result from the Leinster u18 clubs v Leinster u18 Schools game? Cheers

I don't know the final score, the schools won, but they played four periods of 20 mins with both sides fielding strong teams for the first 2 periods. The score at the end of these first 2 periods was 8 - 8. Very evenly matched and some good rugby. It lost shape after that with wholesale changes on both side.

lurtz

could be that he was already declared in the leinster squad to the IRFU and theyre preventing it so late in the season

.ak

Could be Leinster genuinely need him. We're not privy to that info tho.

lurtz

Parata playing for seniors against wasps in friendly

RobbieRuns

lurtz wrote: »

Parata playing for seniors against wasps in friendly

Fair play to him. Connacht U20's playing Munster in friendly game today.

Leinster5

I can safely say Allen was prevented playing for Connacht by Leinster as he was on 'stand-by' and had already trained with Leinster for 5 weeks. Also a Connacht coach involved with the Connacht Academy told me Leinster accused Connacht of 'tapping him up' and were furious about the situation. According to Allen's former schools coach, he's now training with Old Belvedere's senior side.

I'm attending the Connact 20's vs Munster 20's game later, will keep you updated.

Foxtrol

Leinster5 wrote: »

I can safely say Allen was prevented playing for Connacht by Leinster as he was on 'stand-by' and had already trained with Leinster for 5 weeks. Also a Connacht coach involved with the Connacht Academy told me Leinster accused Connacht of 'tapping him up' and were furious about the situation. According to Allen's former schools coach, he's now training with Old Belvedere's senior side.

I'm attending the Connact 20's vs Munster 20's game later, will keep you updated.

I don't see the outrage about this is coming from (I'm not saying you Leinster5). The lad had the option to train for Connacht from the get go but chose Leinster. Leinster see him as a backup player and he needs to live with that for the interpros as he’s nailed his colours to the mast. Aside from them needing him for depth can you really be that surprised that Leinster weren’t delighted with the fact that a player who had intimate knowledge of players/tactics/moves after training with them for 5 weeks was going to train and play for one of the teams they would be facing, especially as they’ll be facing them first up? I’m sure if Allen wants to go play for Connacht after the interpro’s then he’ll be free to do so.

Hagz

Foxtrol wrote: »

I don't see the outrage about this is coming from (I'm not saying you Leinster5). The lad had the option to train for Connacht from the get go but chose Leinster. Leinster see him as a backup player and he needs to live with that for the interpros as he’s nailed his colours to the mast. Aside from them needing him for depth can you really be that surprised that Leinster weren’t delighted with the fact that a player who had intimate knowledge of players/tactics/moves after training with them for 5 weeks was going to train and play for one of the teams they would be facing, especially as they’ll be facing them first up? I’m sure if Allen wants to go play for Connacht after the interpro’s then he’ll be free to do so.

+1

its_phil

Well in terms of the big picture which is the Irish u20s and identifying players for the professional game it is petty.

Allen would have had a better chance of playing for Ireland if he had been at Connacht. It's a missed opportunity due to the short sightedness of the coaches at Leinster. A great shame.

Tox56

its_phil wrote: »

Well in terms of the big picture which is the Irish u20s and identifying players for the professional game it is petty.

Allen would have had a better chance of playing for Ireland if he had been at Connacht. It's a missed opportunity due to the short sightedness of the coaches at Leinster. A great shame.

You speak of this like it's fact, do you have inside knowledge?

Foxtrol

its_phil wrote: »

Well in terms of the big picture which is the Irish u20s and identifying players for the professional game it is petty.

Allen would have had a better chance of playing for Ireland if he had been at Connacht. It's a missed opportunity due to the short sightedness of the coaches at Leinster. A great shame.

This is really hypocritical. Connacht posters (including yourself I believe) have screamed till you’re blue in the face about how Connacht have been winning games at underage level but suddenly now results aren’t important, it’s all about development…

I presume we won’t have any mention of Connachts results if they perform well but in your opinion are underrepresented for Ireland under 20’s?

Leinster5

Foxtrol wrote: »

I don't see the outrage about this is coming from (I'm not saying you Leinster5). The lad had the option to train for Connacht from the get go but chose Leinster. Leinster see him as a backup player and he needs to live with that for the interpros as he’s nailed his colours to the mast. Aside from them needing him for depth can you really be that surprised that Leinster weren’t delighted with the fact that a player who had intimate knowledge of players/tactics/moves after training with them for 5 weeks was going to train and play for one of the teams they would be facing, especially as they’ll be facing them first up? I’m sure if Allen wants to go play for Connacht after the interpro’s then he’ll be free to do so.

I agree with the above to be fair. But I think it's unfair that a player(who in my opinion was a contender for the Ireland 20's squad) will play no provincial rugby with any province. He didn't even play a match for Leinster so I don't see why he couldn't join Connacht. It's not like he'd know their game-plan and all of their moves.

Foxtrol

Leinster5 wrote: »

I agree with the above to be fair. But I think it's unfair that a player(who in my opinion was a contender for the Ireland 20's squad) will play no provincial rugby with any province. He didn't even play a match for Leinster so I don't see why he couldn't join Connacht. It's not like he'd know their game-plan and all of their moves.

You really don't think that training with Leinster for 5 weeks wouldn't give him a massive insight on how they're aiming to play, type of defense and a number of back moves? If they were playing Connacht last it mightn't be too much of an issue but seeing as they're first up it could give Connacht a big advantage as they'd have inside knowledge while Leinster would probably be going into the fixture pretty blind.

He took the risk by chosing to play for an outfit that has more depth so he can't have his cake and eat it. If everything you said is true he's obviously on their radar so he could still get gametime.

Leinster5

Foxtrol wrote: »

You really don't think that training with Leinster for 5 weeks wouldn't give him a massive insight on how they're aiming to play, type of defense and a number of back moves? If they were playing Connacht last it mightn't be too much of an issue but seeing as they're first up it could give Connacht a big advantage as they'd have inside knowledge while Leinster would probably be going into the fixture pretty blind.

He took the risk by chosing to play for an outfit that has more depth so he can't have his cake and eat it. If everything you said is true he's obviously on their radar so he could still get gametime.

Well considering Leinster only focused on basic skills for the first 2 weeks I don't think Allen would have much of an insight considering he only had 6 pitch sessions with them. I just think it's a tragedy that the best hooker in this years Senior Cup doesn't get to play for a provincial side, sure even Conor Duffy who subbed for Allen this year with 'Michaels played for Connachts 20's side today against Munster(they drew 10-10, Walshe and Moloney were stand outs along with Munster's 4 and number 8). Would love to know which Leinster coach is responsible, who coaches the Leinster 20's side?

Stanza2

How did the Connacht backs look? Did Sean O'Brien play in the forwards? Who was the Munster 8?

Foxtrol

Leinster5 wrote: »

Well considering Leinster only focused on basic skills for the first 2 weeks I don't think Allen would have much of an insight considering he only had 6 pitch sessions with them. I just think it's a tragedy that the best hooker in this years Senior Cup doesn't get to play for a provincial side, sure even Conor Duffy who subbed for Allen this year with 'Michaels played for Connachts 20's side today against Munster

Even in the first two weeks of basic skills you could easily get a feeling about what sort of style the team would be aiming to play and what about the other three weeks he was there? How much scumaging did they do, how knowledgeable is he of their lineout calls/moves?

There could be numerous reasons why he wasn’t picked, for all we know he could have been sent back to his club to train to get him to straighten out some on/off field issues and instead he stormed off to/got his head turned by Connacht. Despite your source we simply do not know the facts and without knowing the intricacies of the situation we can’t judge who is right/wrong.

Whatever the situation all I can say is unless they wiped his memory clean Men In Black style I can understand why a coach wouldn’t be happy with one of his players moving to the opposition, especially due to the small number of games in the tournament and the fact they play them first.

its_phil

Foxtrol wrote: »

This is really hypocritical. Connacht posters (including yourself I believe) have screamed till you’re blue in the face about how Connacht have been winning games at underage level but suddenly now results aren’t important, it’s all about development…

I presume we won’t have any mention of Connachts results if they perform well but in your opinion are underrepresented for Ireland under 20’s?

There is a massive difference between not picking players who have performed more than well in the interpros and, IMO, good enough for the Irish 20's and denying a player the chance to play in the interpros because he did a few weeks training?

Where did I say anything about results not mattering? Of course they matter. The function of these games is to deliver players for the 20s. The results reflect the quality of players in the team. Connachts representation last year was a reflection of how good they were which wasn't very good. The year before was a different matter.

S147bt

18's Schools ended up winning by 5 or 6 tries against the 18's Clubs

Foxtrol

its_phil wrote: »

There is a massive difference between not picking players who have performed more than well in the interpros and, IMO, good enough for the Irish 20's and denying a player the chance to play in the interpros because he did a few weeks training? .

He’s being denied a chance to play interpro’s not because he did a few weeks training but because he made a commitment to play/train for Leinster and for whatever reason didn’t make the grade. He should accept responsibility for his choices/actions and try to work his way into the side. Do you really think that if he said in advance, ‘if I’m dropped at any point I’m going to join the opposition’ that he’d have been let near the training ground. He cant have his cake and eat it.

Where did I say anything about results not mattering? Of course they matter. The function of these games is to deliver players for the 20s. The results reflect the quality of players in the team. Connachts representation last year was a reflection of how good they were which wasn't very good. The year before was a different matter.

Well if you believe the results matter then you should be able to understand and tone down the faux outrage when a coach isn’t happy with a player training with his side for weeks switching over to the opposition. As you said results should reflect the quality of the players in the team but if one side has insider knowledge of moves/players/tactics this might not be the case.

Absolute storm in a teacup.

ormond lad

Foxtrol wrote: »

He’s being denied a chance to play interpro’s not because he did a few weeks training but because he made a commitment to play/train for Leinster and for whatever reason didn’t make the grade. He should accept responsibility for his choices/actions and try to work his way into the side. Do you really think that if he said in advance, ‘if I’m dropped at any point I’m going to join the opposition’ that he’d have been let near the training ground. He cant have his cake and eat it.

Well if you believe the results matter then you should be able to understand and tone down the faux outrage when a coach isn’t happy with a player training with his side for weeks switching over to the opposition. As you said results should reflect the quality of the players in the team but if one side has insider knowledge of moves/players/tactics this might not be the case.

Absolute storm in a teacup.

Accept responsibility for his actions/choices?? It seems to me like you're saying he did something quite wrong.
Leinster have decided he is not in their plans. Why shouldn't he look elsewhere for a shot at playing interpro's and for a shot at an Irish jersey. Why should Leinster be allowed stop a player, who they do not have in their immediate plans, from playing with another side and developing and improving.
I disagree with you when you say he has nailed his colours to the mast. He hasn't. He looked at his home province for representative rugby. They picked him initially and he wasn't up to what was wanted. He looked to another province and his home province refused to let him play. That's just very unfair on the player and doesn't help long-term for Ireland as a player who would have been involved in interpro's will not be.

Quint2010

Ridiculous from Leinster. If it's true it's very spiteful.

lurtz

Mitchell and Fogarty and coaching leinster 20s

Foxtrol

ormond lad wrote: »

Accept responsibility for his actions/choices?? It seems to me like you're saying he did something quite wrong.

He didn't do something wrong but he did make an adult commitment to a side and has to see this through for this competition.

Leinster have decided he is not in their plans.

The only evidence we have of what went on is Leinster5 and that source said he was seen as a backup so clearly in their plans.

Why shouldn't he look elsewhere for a shot at playing interpro's and for a shot at an Irish jersey. Why should Leinster be allowed stop a player, who they do not have in their immediate plans, from playing with another side and developing and improving.

Because he’s been within the Leinster camp for 5 weeks, dealing with their game style, moves, lineout calls. If you’re going to take the competition element out of the interpro’s you might as well just have one big camp for all the sides and just play practice games for their development.

I disagree with you when you say he has nailed his colours to the mast. He hasn't. He looked at his home province for representative rugby. They picked him initially and he wasn't up to what was wanted. He looked to another province and his home province refused to let him play. That's just very unfair on the player and doesn't help long-term for Ireland as a player who would have been involved in interpro's will not be.

At what point does a players colours become nailed to the mast, if you’re told you’re on the bench a few days before a game can you take your ball and go to the opposing province then if they promise to start you for the remaining games? If he was dropped after 2 weeks I’d say there shouldn’t be an problem with going to a different province but 5 weeks is beyond the tipping point of insider knowledge for a competition with so few games, where very little would be known about the sides prior to their initial game.

Once again I repeat, we have no clue what the full story of this situation is so can we please reign in the ‘unfair’, ‘spiteful’, ‘disgrace’, ‘petty’ comments until there is actually some facts rather than just Chinese Whispers. As I said before for all we know he was sent back to his club for some on/off field issue and rather than doing that and coming back into the Leinster setup he ran off/got his head turned by Connacht and in that situation Leinster coach’s annoyance with Connacht could be completely justified. Leinster could easily be in the wrong but so could the player and/or Connacht so can we please save the outrage until the facts become clear.

Leinster5

Foxtrol wrote: »

He didn't do something wrong but he did make an adult commitment to a side and has to see this through for this competition.

The only evidence we have of what went on is Leinster5 and that source said he was seen as a backup so clearly in their plans.

All I've said is fact. I'd name the people involved with Leinster I talked with but I told them I wouldn't spread the word as it's a touchy subject at the minute. Allen was seen as "back-up" to their reserve hooker. Leinster currently have 3 hookers in their set-up, so even if there's an injury, Allen would still not be in the 23, so therefore I think it's a f*cking disgrace that Leinster have prevented a player from potentially starting for Connacht's 20 side and going on to play/be involved with the Ireland 20's, instead he's expected to just sit at home and be happy to let his talent go to waste. I agree with most of your statements Foxtrol, but I don't understand how you've zero sympathy for a young player who just wants a chance at making a provincial side and trying to make an Ireland set-up. I just don't think any player, no matter what standard, should receive this harsh treatment, especially at such a crucial stage in his rugby career.