Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

Irish Steve

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Steve.... the grey dullness and old ‘Soviet Style’ facade has to be improved.

What that building was, was a square steel frame, like a fohherking warehouse, with low ceilings ,poor natural lighting , claustrophobic cramped conditions, dressed up with equally grey dull concrete units hung on the outside.

Nothing about it needs to be ‘preserved’ in this day and age.

Think the old Lansdowne Road vs the Aviva Stadium.

No argument from me, I worked in it for several years, (before T2 was built) and there are so many aspects of it that are a disaster, if it was possible, flatten it and put a new design in place, but that won't happen, even though now would be the perfect time to do it, given the massive fall in numbers as a result of covid.

We can but hope that they will try and be creative

Brendan Bendar

Irish Steve wrote: »

No argument from me, I worked in it for several years, (before T2 was built) and there are so many aspects of it that are a disaster, if it was possible, flatten it and put a new design in place, but that won't happen, even though now would be the perfect time to do it, given the massive fall in numbers as a result of covid.

We can but hope that they will try and be creative

That would be my preference too Steve, doubt though they could knock out all that usable space and replace with better design in the ‘hopefully’ timescale of the Corona Virus scene,

Hopefully things would be recovered in a shorter timescale than a major demolition/rebuild would take?

donvito99

Irish Steve wrote: »

I just hope that they don't just tinker with the facade. For all sorts of reasons, the insane concept of a pedestrian crossing in the middle of the set down road has to be changed, to completely segregate passengers on foot coming from the car park and bus area from the traffic on the set down road. It should have been done a long time ago, but DAA are not known for their intelligence where these sorts of issues are concerned, there have been so many monumental blunders over the years, I'm not going to hold my breath in anticipation of their people seeing the light.

There is nothing wrong with a pedestrian crossing in that context. To force arriving passengers to use, say, the departures overpass is a needless, stupid pain in the hole for people just so that useless drivers don't get frustrated at their lack of patience.

Irish Steve

donvito99 wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with a pedestrian crossing in that context. To force arriving passengers to use, say, the departures overpass is a needless, stupid pain in the hole for people just so that useless drivers don't get frustrated at their lack of patience.

Well, I hate to disagree with you, but the reality is that at peak periods, with large numbers of passengers coming from the car park and the bus lanes to go into departures, there are times when it's almost impossible for the traffic on the road to get through, which then causes significant congestion in the first half of the departure level road.

There are timed lights on the crossing on the lower (arrivals) level, which has a much lower vehicle traffic level, and that works, but for reasons best known to the DAA, they've never put a similar flow control system in on the departure road level. At peak periods, that IS a problem, especially for traffic that is not as such using the terminal, but due to the bad design of the road structure, they have no choice other than to go through that section of road.

The result is pedestrians all over the place, weaving in and out of traffic lanes, when with some relatively simple changes, it could be a lot safer for all concerned. The through lane should be in the middle, and the passengers getting out of vehicles on the right hand side should be facilitated to go into the car park complex to then use a travelator link over to the terminal. The number of near misses I've seen when excited kids get out of a vehicle and start running around with the present layout is only brutal, and it's only been luck that there haven't been major injuries over time.

It's not unique to the DAA, for some reason, the designers of roads, especially in places like major shopping centres, have a complete inability to design the traffic flow in 3 dimensions, with the result that all too often, there are conflicts between pedestrians and vehicles, which could be avoided without too many problems if the designers applied some thought to the process. The Airside shopping complex is a classic example, the busiest part of the internal road structure runs directly outside the retail units, with the result that it's a nightmare for pedestrians and drivers. It would not have taken much work to design the structure in a way that keeps the majority of pedestrians away from the peak traffic flows, but the relevant designers, (and local authority planners that approve the mess) seem to be unable to come up with viable schemes that enhance safety.

Time will tell, but I doubt that DAA will give things like this much serious thought, they've missed several opportunities to get things like this right over the years, and I suspect that it will be status normal this time round as well.

donvito99

Irish Steve wrote: »

Well, I hate to disagree with you, but the reality is that at peak periods, with large numbers of passengers coming from the car park and the bus lanes to go into departures, there are times when it's almost impossible for the traffic on the road to get through, which then causes significant congestion in the first half of the departure level road.

There are timed lights on the crossing on the lower (arrivals) level, which has a much lower vehicle traffic level, and that works, but for reasons best known to the DAA, they've never put a similar flow control system in on the departure road level. At peak periods, that IS a problem, especially for traffic that is not as such using the terminal, but due to the bad design of the road structure, they have no choice other than to go through that section of road.

The result is pedestrians all over the place, weaving in and out of traffic lanes, when with some relatively simple changes, it could be a lot safer for all concerned. The through lane should be in the middle, and the passengers getting out of vehicles on the right hand side should be facilitated to go into the car park complex to then use a travelator link over to the terminal. The number of near misses I've seen when excited kids get out of a vehicle and start running around with the present layout is only brutal, and it's only been luck that there haven't been major injuries over time.

It's not unique to the DAA, for some reason, the designers of roads, especially in places like major shopping centres, have a complete inability to design the traffic flow in 3 dimensions, with the result that all too often, there are conflicts between pedestrians and vehicles, which could be avoided without too many problems if the designers applied some thought to the process. The Airside shopping complex is a classic example, the busiest part of the internal road structure runs directly outside the retail units, with the result that it's a nightmare for pedestrians and drivers. It would not have taken much work to design the structure in a way that keeps the majority of pedestrians away from the peak traffic flows, but the relevant designers, (and local authority planners that approve the mess) seem to be unable to come up with viable schemes that enhance safety.

Time will tell, but I doubt that DAA will give things like this much serious thought, they've missed several opportunities to get things like this right over the years, and I suspect that it will be status normal this time round as well.

I would hope that the DAA focus on improving the passenger experience rather than slightly improving (at enormous expense) the person dropping off the passenger experience.

There is unfortunately a general tendency in this country to massively and expensively over-engineer things in this country. The disappearance of the zebra crossing is proof of that.

In this case as you propose, a timed pedestrian crossing which switches from absolute pedestrian priority at less busy times to some priority for vehicles as and when appropriate is sufficient. Failing that, what's wrong with an attendant reading the situation, taking over and waving traffic through where things get busy?

We don't need hugely expensive land side projects which force passengers up and down yet more escalators and detracting from investment airside.

cameramonkey

The building that you walk through going to terminal 1 is an absolute shiiiiiteee hole. I mean the one when you get off the buses from the car parks. It is a concourse in the multi story car park . It is dirty , ill designed, stained, and generally shabby, there are pigeon droppings everywhere.. It would not take much to do a job on that, it is depressing to walk through. The DDA should be ashamed of themselves for letting it get into that state.

Irish Steve

The multi storey concourse is only part of the problem, much more fundamental is the total absence of any sort of bus and coach service information and waiting facility in that area, the shelters at each stop are not an acceptable place to have to sit, (or stand) for maybe an hour, especially in the winter months with a howling gale blowing the rain in horizontally. There needs to be an area where passengers can wait that's well lit, warm and dry, with departure indicator boards to show which stand and the time of the departures, the local service that comes out to our area runs (supposedly) every hour, but from experience, there can be delays of up to 30 minutes, and with no real time information, that effectively means having to be at the relevant stand for a potentially long wait, as the airport is not as such the end of the route, so the bus comes in and departs very quickly, which means having to be at the stop when it arrives to make sure it doesn't go without you.

LXFlyer

Irish Steve wrote: »

The multi storey concourse is only part of the problem, much more fundamental is the total absence of any sort of bus and coach service information and waiting facility in that area, the shelters at each stop are not an acceptable place to have to sit, (or stand) for maybe an hour, especially in the winter months with a howling gale blowing the rain in horizontally. There needs to be an area where passengers can wait that's well lit, warm and dry, with departure indicator boards to show which stand and the time of the departures, the local service that comes out to our area runs (supposedly) every hour, but from experience, there can be delays of up to 30 minutes, and with no real time information, that effectively means having to be at the relevant stand for a potentially long wait, as the airport is not as such the end of the route, so the bus comes in and departs very quickly, which means having to be at the stop when it arrives to make sure it doesn't go without you.

A proper bus station (like that at Heathrow Central) with heated internal waiting area, with plenty of seats, departure boards etc. is what is needed.

Irish Steve

I've not been through Heathrow in a long time, so I can't be sure, I would guess that it's a reasonable facility, given the numbers that go through the place, to be honest, almost anything would be an improvement on the non facility that's on the ground at Dublin, it's a major disincentive to using the bus at present, and financially, using the bus is a much better option for us now.

At some stage, the whole aspect of public transport (both for the local area and the wider implications of some sort of high capacity link to central Dublin) will have to be addressed, using diesel powered buses to service the car parks will have to change to something like an electric monorail or similar, or even a "local" Luas type tram, but we are saddled with a major problem called parish pump politics, so TD's from the back end of Kerry think they have to have a critical voice and say in how the services for users of Dublin airport are delivered, with the result that all too often, what's needed and what gets delivered are two very different things.

If there was a decent monorail or similar link to the car parks, it would be totally feasible to have a decent bus station at the long stay car park, which could significantly reduce the number of vehicle movements through the central core area, and even more so if there was also a drop off/pick up option for vehicle and taxi services, but that's too easy, doing it right would be a step too far for "the system", we've seen that with the way that the Metro service is constantly being changed or deferred or revised.

Brendan Bendar

We shouldn’t though forget that by bus you will be in the Centre of Dublin in under half an hour from leaving the airport.

Non stop via the tunnel.

bk

Irish Steve, I'd say Diesel Buses would most likely just be replaced by fully EV buses, rather then going tram/monorail.

EV buses are become increasingly standard, hundreds of thousands of them in Asia now and even DB are talking of going full EV in about 5 years time.

I don't see them going for the high expense of tram/monrail unless there are very high levels of demand.

I agree with everything else you have said about the public transport facilities at the airport.

prunudo

https://www.thejournal.ie/traffic-light-system-ireland-5262553-Nov2020/?utm_source=twitter_short

Probably the wrong place to post but is that photo accurate or a photoshop. Would have thought 4 engined planes are rare enough out of Dublin as it is but is the angle of take off even possible from where the shot is taken from and how it lines up with the towers.

bk

bk wrote: »

Irish Steve, I'd say Diesel Buses would most likely just be replaced by fully EV buses, rather then going tram/monorail.

Article in the Irish Times today saying the BE and DB have gotten a Hydrogen powered bus to trial the technology and the article mentions that Dublin Airport will trial it too. It is part of a project with DCU.

So perhaps another option for replacing Diesel buses at the airport.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/hydrogen-powered-bus-takes-to-streets-of-dublin-1.4404748

Idbatterim

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

We shouldn’t though forget that by bus you will be in the Centre of Dublin in under half an hour from leaving the airport.

Non stop via the tunnel.

this argument, yeah half hour off peak. Getting to airport is extremely time critical, how long does it take during a normal year in the depths of winter in **** weather?!

L1011

Idbatterim wrote: »

this argument, yeah half hour off peak. Getting to airport is extremely time critical, how long does it take during a normal year in the depths of winter in **** weather?!

Much the same. Bus lanes.

Idbatterim

L1011 wrote: »

Much the same. Bus lanes.

LOL! from down past heuston station, up the north quays and through the port tunnel?!

L1011

Idbatterim wrote: »

LOL! from down past heuston station, up the north quays and through the port tunnel?!

Heuston is not in the centre of Dublin

AnRothar

L1011 wrote: »

Heuston is not in the centre of Dublin

I always believed that Glasnevin was the centre of Dublin.

Shamrockj

Does anyone know roughly the completion date for the north runway? I tried searching but everything just said 2021. It's not that far way now!

Stealthirl

Shamrockj wrote: »

Does anyone know roughly the completion date for the north runway? I tried searching but everything just said 2021. It's not that far way now!

Pre covid id have said in time for Summer 21 use

Brendan Bendar

Stealthirl wrote: »

Pre covid id have said in time for Summer 21 use

Best I could get was late 2021

goingnowhere

Commissioning and testing will take a while, getting the ILS setup and get Cat3 approval won't happen in a day.

That said you don't need any tech in good clear daylight conditions for departures

Shedite27

Stealthirl wrote: »

Pre covid id have said in time for Summer 21 use

They've been working fairly solidly on it. I go cycling out there most weekends and there's always trucks coming and going even on Saturday/Sundays

Shamrockj

I don't think they ever actually stopped construction even during lockdown

jamo2oo9

Shamrockj wrote: »

I don't think they ever actually stopped construction even during lockdown

iirc, they did stop at the start of the lockdown as there were confusion about whether if their job was essential or not. It was later clarified but I'd say they stopped for a week at most which isn't going to have a major impact on the project overall.

cgcsb

You would think with hardly any flights for months they'd have opportunity to complete some work early

Hotblack Desiato

AnRothar wrote: »

I always believed that Glasnevin was the centre of Dublin.

It's the dead centre of Dublin as the old joke goes

cgcsb wrote: »

You would think with hardly any flights for months they'd have opportunity to complete some work early

The work doesn't affect 10R/27L so it makes no difference whether that runway is busy or not. They did have to take 16/34 out of service for a while.

jamo2oo9

cgcsb wrote: »

You would think with hardly any flights for months they'd have opportunity to complete some work early

Flight operations have zero effect on the construction of the new runway. Aircraft can't use it until it's commissioned into use.

Brendan Bendar

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

Flight operations have zero effect on the construction of the new runway. Aircraft can't use it until it's commissioned into use.

What if they have to use the 16/34 r/w due an incident or weather issues?

Now, it won’t be much but it could happen.

PinOnTheRight

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

What if they have to use the 16/34 r/w due an incident or weather issues?

Now, it won’t be much but it could happen.

16/34 was closed most of the summer for narrowing, so wouldn't have been able to impact 28R construction anyway.