Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

Captain_Crash · 26-10-2022 8:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797203#Comment_119797203

Not likely! The opening hours for now are only until 1pm, so your flight would need to be fairly early to get it! Although flights do leave early, a departure time of 1pm on the ticket means off blocks at 1pm, not wheels up!

shamrocka330 · 26-10-2022 10:27pm

How come aircraft taking off from runway 27R at Heathrow don’t turn right after departure like in DUB - in many cases I’ve observed aircraft turning left which would put them across the flight path of 27L?

Hearing reasons that the right turn at DUB is a standard procedure doing dual runway operations but this procedure doesn’t seem to exist at other airports with dual operations?

Captain_Crash · 26-10-2022 11:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797871#Comment_119797871

Because the runways are further apart!

Regarding the turn, any turn crossing the adjacent runway would be at the direction of ATC at the time of the request. Bear in mind Heathrow ATC has many years experience with dual runway ops, Dublin doesn’t!

Dazler97 · 26-10-2022 11:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797266#Comment_119797266

Yes i know that, also lately it's been delayed by half an hour most days been keeping an eye out

bikeman1 · 26-10-2022 11:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797871#Comment_119797871

If you look at the charts for Heathrow there is diversions on 27L rather than in our case 27R. In LHR they swap the runways in the middle of the day to be fair to people.

Bsal · 27-10-2022 2:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119798107#Comment_119798107

Heathrows runways are only 1400m apart, Dublin's are 1680m apart so that can't be the reason.

Captain_Crash · 27-10-2022 7:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119798447#Comment_119798447

Are they? I actually didn’t know that! Can’t be that reason so! I always just presumed they were!

Although as another poster stated, there is still a turn on departure at LHR. It’s quite pronounced off 09R, especially in a heavy!

Phen2206 · 27-10-2022 10:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797871#Comment_119797871

If we had someone from LHR ATC to answer your question it would be the ideal thing but there are usually no parallel departures at LHR. So in the situation you describe with traffic departing off 27R; there is no flight path from 27L for the departures to cross because 27L will normally only be for landing aircraft when 27R is in use for departures. The missed approach for landing aircraft on 27L takes an immediate turn to the left away from the departures off 27R so that is where the separation comes in.

bikeman1 · 27-10-2022 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119799080#Comment_119799080

Correct. And when 27L is in use for departures (as in now 1419), there is a divergence and some quite (depending on the routing) heavy left turns off it over the reservoirs. As someone else said, quite fun on a heavy.

Can we get back on topic. One of the runways (North or South) has to have a divergence for safety reasons during parallel operations. With the City of Dublin to the South of the airport, this is not going to be the South runway diverging. It will be straight out in both directions on the South runway. This was never a question for the North runway. All that is in question is the degree of the divergence off the North runway.

shamrocka330 · 27-10-2022 7:23pm

My point was that some departures off 27R at Heathrow turn left and cross the path of 27L (which would be in use for arrivals) and could therefore causing a potential conflict if there was a go ahead off 27L.

A previous poster commented that in DUB, the reason departures take an immediate right turn off 28R is to avoid a potential conflict with a go around off 28L…..why do they need to do that in DUB but not LHR?

I’m sure there’s a reason for it but I can’t find it yet!

Lustrum · 27-10-2022 8:30pm

The missed approach off 27L is an almost immediate left turn to the south of the field. The missed approach off 27R is an almost immediate right turn to the north of the field. There is unlikely to be any conflict with departing traffic.

The missed approach of 28L in Dublin goes initially straight ahead before turning to the right and back to the VOR, potentially creating a conflict. There's a chance that had some part to play in the design of the departures from 28R.

Chris_5339762 · 27-10-2022 9:17pm

Theres an old BBC documentary (which is actually quite good) set in the future in 2003 (yes) about gridlock around England. Its a bit overdramatic, but it contains exactly what you're describing - a go-around being hit by a departure with a turn.

This is roughly where that segment starts.

https://youtu.be/z6BxSbx1Fm0?t=3182

27-10-2022 9:30pm

Have a read of the ICAO doc 9643 (updated during the build of the new runway at DUB) that is relevant to parallel runway operations. A missed approach has to provide 30 degree separation from a potential departure off the other parallel runway. The missed approach from 28L has to climb straight ahead due to the proximity of the restricted areas for Baldonnell. Hence the minimum 30 degree right turn for all departures off 28R.

The 75 degree right turn off 28R for some of the SIDs is (partly) to meet the 45 degree difference between successive departure criteria that allows 60 seconds between departures. ie. 30 + 45 = 75 It also reduces track miles to the east

Heathrow basically runs a sequence, whenever possible, of departures that fly SIDs the go left, right, straight ahead or some sequence that doesn’t do left, left, right; this facilitates 60 seconds separation between successive departures. In my time, God help you if you presented departures to the Air Controller that didn’t follow that philosophy. They don’t do independent simultaneous departures on both runways at the same time

Dublin’s parallels are sufficiently far apart to operate independently. Simultaneous parallel departures are possible. They’re not possible at LHR (AFAIK, anyway). The rules were prescribed decades ago, before accurate FMS were available.

HTCOne · 27-10-2022 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119801462#Comment_119801462

I’ll try and keep this simple. In Heathrow, in a westerly operation, the go around on the southern runway takes an immediate turn to the south, thus allowing SIDS in any direction on the northern runway. In this instance, it is the Go Around procedure ensuring separation effectively. In Dublin, the major population centre is to the south, so for noise abatement you don’t want to send low level traffic there, you can’t send go arounds from the southern runway in a southern direction. As such, in westerly operations, the SIDs on the northern runway take a turn to the North, thus allowing go arounds on the southern runway proceed straight ahead.

A go around is a high workload event for crews and ATC, much better to formalise the separation criteria in advance via procedures than do it ad hoc.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-10-2022 10:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119801931#Comment_119801931

It's fiction not a documentary!

Plenty of dramatic licence taken.

Chris_5339762 · 28-10-2022 10:54am

Fair comment, it is fiction and there is a decent bit of dramatic licence. But it is EXTREMELY well done, and was very highly rated. More than one person got caught out thinking it was real. The way they did the CCTV style footage, the acting in the fake interviews.... it was very very cleverly created.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-10-2022 11:31am

Oh yeah it's very well done alright but at the end of the day it's entertainment.

I got about halfway through the first episode of The Office before I realised it wasn't real 😊

magicbastarder · 31-10-2022 3:42pm

what's the deal with the new runway and wind direction? i think i've only ever seen planes taking off from it westbound.

i passed the airport earlier, and there were planes taking off in that direction; was near dead calm. about 45 minutes later i passed again; a decent enough SSE breeze had picked up and all arrivals and departures were using the old runway, eastbound - and there was a decent queue of planes, nine deep, waiting to take off. the new runway was not being used.

Captain_Crash · 31-10-2022 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815738#Comment_119815738

Under normal circumstances 10L is only used for landing, with eastbound takeoffs using 10R and currently its only open until 13:00.

I’m presuming when you passed later in the day the new runway was closed. Plenty of mornings it’s been used with landings coming in from the west and easterly take offs happening on the southern (old) runway

EchoIndia · 31-10-2022 4:17pm

Much of this discussion thread has been about the usage of the new runway...

magicbastarder · 31-10-2022 4:24pm

my trip out and trip home probably just about spanned that 1pm threshold, which might explain why i saw a couple of takeoffs westbound from the new one on the way out, and it was closed on the way home.

what's the rationale behind the 1pm closure?must be frustrating when you're stuck on a plane. i passed an AL A330 which was ninth in the queue and by the time i'd gotten round to the other side of the runway, eight minutes later, it had jumped to seventh.

Brendan Bendar · 31-10-2022 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815901#Comment_119815901

Over 6000 posts on this thread ……mostly referring to that issue….

magicbastarder · 31-10-2022 9:19pm

cheers, i read back a page or two and it was people talking about heathrow and very specific stuff that didn't answer my question. completely unclear as to how far back i'd have had to read to get the answer to my question.

but Captain_Crash was decent enough to answer my question.

MICKEYG · 07-11-2022 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119816890#Comment_119816890

Went through the airport this morning and saw one security lane in each of T1 and T2 boarded up. Hoping they are installing the new tray loading security systems that they have in the UK.