Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

TheFitz13

Thanks guys!

Idbatterim

in terms of IAG wanting the second runway etc, can they not have a lot of influence on forcing the situation, by simply sending loads of traffic via dublin to force the issue or certainly speed it up?

IRLConor

Idbatterim wrote: »

in terms of IAG wanting the second runway etc, can they not have a lot of influence on forcing the situation, by simply sending loads of traffic via dublin to force the issue or certainly speed it up?

That could be counter-productive because stretching the current facilities could result in a worse customer experience and affect their products.

It also assumes that they could just turn that tap on in a profitable manner without affecting their other routes. It's probably not that easy a thing to do.

sdanseo

Who was it who said that 25m pax would trigger the runway development to come out of hibernation, and how much truth was there to it? Would be great to see some proper movement; maybe a renewal of PP.

markpb

The Commission for Aviation Regulation told DAA that they couldn't increase their landing charges to pay for the construction of a second runway until passenger numbers hit 25m.

The ball is now firmly in DAAs court to decide whether to proceed with construction under the existing planning permission (which removes the cross wind runway, reduces the number of early morning flights and possibly had the two runways so close together that parallel operations can't happen) or to apply for new planning permission (which may improve on those deficiencies but will put the project back several years).

sdanseo

markpb wrote: »

The Commission for Aviation Regulation told DAA that they couldn't increase their landing charges to pay for the construction of a second runway until passenger numbers hit 25m.

The ball is now firmly in DAAs court to decide whether to proceed with construction under the existing planning permission (which removes the cross wind runway, reduces the number of early morning flights and had the two runways so close together that parallel operations can't happen) or to apply for new planning permission (which may improve on those deficiencies but will put the project back several years).

Cheers firstly, I knew I'd seen mention of it and couldn't for the life of me remember where. The CAR reasoning makes sense, there was no need for it unless the numbers rose, although there seems to be less panic now at 25m pax than there was about the matter at 23.6m pax in 2008.

Many airports operate perfectly without crosswind runways, albeit we can get a bit windy. Provision for keeping 16/34 wouldn't be that hard to integrate although it would likely be seldom used.

What's your source for parallel operations being impossible?

EASA says the minimum lateral separation for parallel instrument approaches is 1,035m. At present the Threshold of R28 is approximately 1,500m south of where it would intersect 10L/28R.

CS-ADR-DSN.B.055 — Minimum distance between parallel instrument runways TXT
MOVE to GM

(a) Where parallel instrument runways are intended for simultaneous use, the minimum
distance between their centre lines should be:

(1) 1 035 m for independent parallel approaches;
(2) 915 m for dependent parallel approaches;
(3) 760 m for independent parallel departures;

jimbis

Is there a logical reason why they sought permission for parallel runways that would be too close together?

markpb

sdanseo wrote:

Many airports operate perfectly without crosswind runways, albeit we can get a bit windy. Provision for keeping 16/34 wouldn't be that hard to integrate although it would likely be seldom used.

The IAA objected to the loss of the cross wind runway and have a figure for the number of flights that made use of it last year. I don't have it to hand right now but it wasn't immaterial.

sdanseo wrote:

What's your source for parallel operations being impossible?

Someone here posted it, I'll dig out the post. It's possible they were wrong (or, more likely, that I misunderstood).

sdanseo

Did a little more research, and there's no physical reason the runways can't be used for parallel operation. There may well be planning reasons, for example noise abatement.

For comparison, Heathrow's 09L/27R and 09R/27L are ~1,430m apart. The DAA says the two runways with current permission would be 1,690m apart. They also confirm that 16/34 would remain.

Pat Dunne

sdanseo wrote: »

Did a little more research, and there's no physical reason the runways can't be used for parallel operation. There may well be planning reasons, for example noise abatement.

For comparison, Heathrow's 09L/27R and 09R/27L are ~1,430m apart. The DAA says the two runways with current permission would be 1,690m apart. They also confirm that 16/34 would remain.

I would excerise a little bit of caution when quoting from the link posted above, as the article along with the overall section Community Affairs section on the DAA website does not appear to have been up dated since 2012.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

Someone here posted it, I'll dig out the post. It's possible they were wrong (or, more likely, that I misunderstood).

There is several different types of parallel runway operations available, the NICE kind up to totally autonomous IFR LVP kind. It depends on what the airport operator and ANSP want.

basill

There is several different types of parallel runway operations available, the NICE kind up to totally autonomous IFR LVP kind

They will probably go with the cheap and nasty kind. Then we can have fun going around for a tcas as some idiot forgets to arm the localiser and sails through:)

Idbatterim

Ryanair passenger figures up 25% Jan 16 v 15. Will be interesting to see the Dublin airport January stats...

http://corporate.ryanair.com/news/passenger-figures/160204-jan-traffic-grows-25-to-7-5m-customers/?market=en

Idbatterim

passenger numbers up 17% in January, that's up on even last year!

https://www.dublinairport.com/gns/at-the-airport/latest-news/16-02-09/Strong_Passenger_Growth_at_Dublin_Airport_in_January.aspx

Shannon Control

Idbatterim wrote: »

passenger numbers up 17% in January, that's up on even last year!

https://www.dublinairport.com/gns/at-the-airport/latest-news/16-02-09/Strong_Passenger_Growth_at_Dublin_Airport_in_January.aspx

Great news. That's only likely to continue for the coming months, and if it does, that leads me to believe that the new runway construction will be confirmed very soon, as the DAA were sceptical that traffic would sustain its exponential growth for another year.

737max

Those regional traffic growth numbers are a bit underwhelming.
Their slots have a quantifiable monetary value now that the airport is busy.

The only two routes showing as regional are Kerry and Donegal and neither are exactly right beside the tourist destinations tourists are visiting.

Google travel distances by road.
292km 3h29m Dublin - Kerry Airport
217km 2h22m Dublin - Adare (end of motorway)
Once the motorway bypasses Adare and works its way down toward Killarney there is less of a justification for those regional routes and hopefully the planes will be used for more useful links to UK.

If the ATR-42 holds 48 passengers I figure they are at about 45% occupancy with 8 flights each day between the two destinations.

Slots cost money and there is an opportunity cost to not using them to their maximum. Better getting a larger plane in to that slot going somewhere people want to go to and Government(not DAA) should subsidise regional areas by building however many KM of motorway or high quality wide roads the current subvention is costing taxpayers to make regional parts of Ireland less remote.

Pat Dunne

Idbatterim wrote: »

passenger numbers up 17% in January, that's up on even last year!

https://www.dublinairport.com/gns/at-the-airport/latest-news/16-02-09/Strong_Passenger_Growth_at_Dublin_Airport_in_January.aspx

Good to see the continued positive PAX figures for DUB especially in Jan which can be a quite month.
Any fgures on ORK, SNN or NOC.
The following link seems to work better for myself http://www.dublinairport.com/gns/at-the-airport/latest-news/16-02-09/Strong_Passenger_Growth_at_Dublin_Airport_in_January-2069495640.aspx

JCX BXC

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Any fgures on ORK, SNN or NOC.

Haven't seen any. If it was something to make noise about I'd imagine we would have seen them. Marginal growth was expected at ORK and SNN, with a marginal fall was expected at NOC.

JCX BXC

737max wrote: »

Those regional traffic growth numbers are a bit underwhelming.
Their slots have a quantifiable monetary value now that the airport is busy.

The only two routes showing as regional are Kerry and Donegal and neither are exactly right beside the tourist destinations tourists are visiting.

Google travel distances by road.
292km 3h29m Dublin - Kerry Airport
217km 2h22m Dublin - Adare (end of motorway)
Once the motorway bypasses Adare and works its way down toward Killarney there is less of a justification for those regional routes and hopefully the planes will be used for more useful links to UK.

If the ATR-42 holds 48 passengers I figure they are at about 45% occupancy with 8 flights each day between the two destinations.

Slots cost money and there is an opportunity cost to not using them to their maximum. Better getting a larger plane in to that slot going somewhere people want to go to and Government(not DAA) should subsidise regional areas by building however many KM of motorway or high quality wide roads the current subvention is costing taxpayers to make regional parts of Ireland less remote.

PSO routes, what can ya do.
DUB isn't exactly LHR or LGW yet though, there's still alot of expansion room. I'm sure if Stobart wanted another UK route they would get the aircraft and start it.

737max

Carnacalla wrote: »

PSO routes, what can ya do.

What Dublin Airport do? Bitch and Moan about the PSO for an eternity before dealing with any topic that politicians/Government bring to their doors going forward.
Imagine getting a 737 or A320 in to those slots. Between passenger charges and extra activities in the airport they'd be making maybe €2 million more per year in income and that is before you count the cash spent in the Irish economy by these visitors; that buys an awful lot of civil engineering work on a second runway.


And while we are on the topic of infrastructure I note that now not only do you have to walk 800 metres from the entrance door of terminal 1 to the end gates in pier D but they've also taken away nearly all the seats and put in a new queue to the departure gates adding another 50m to the walk for a Ryanair flight.
I don't know if Ryanair or DAA are to blame for this but they appear to have set the default gate for most Ryanair departure flights as geographically distant from Terminal 1 front door as is technically possible. Only thing they can do to make it more difficult is to add a few walls to scale and barbed wire to crawl under while soldiers shoot over your head.

LXFlyer

737max wrote: »

And while we are on the topic of infrastructure I note that now not only do you have to walk 800 metres from the entrance door of terminal 1 to the end gates in pier D but they've also taken away nearly all the seats and put in a new queue to the departure gates adding another 50m to the walk for a Ryanair flight.

I don't know if Ryanair or DAA are to blame for this but they appear to have set the default gate for most Ryanair departure flights as geographically distant from Terminal 1 front door as is technically possible. Only thing they can do to make it more difficult is to add a few walls to scale and barbed wire to crawl under while soldiers shoot over your head.

Surely the walk from the entrance of T2 to gate 426 is similar?

Avada

lxflyer wrote: »

Surely the walk from the entrance of T2 to gate 426 is similar?

It's fairly similar, it just doesnt feel as long as it's mostly a straight line imo.

Gaoth Laidir

I've measure roughly 800 metres from Terminal 1 Security to the end of Pier D while onnly 500 metres from T2 to the end of the 400 pier.

LXFlyer

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

I've measure roughly 800 metres from Terminal 1 Security to the end of Pier D while onnly 500 metres from T2 to the end of the 400 pier.

The comparison quoted was from the front entrance of each terminal - I'd suggest T2 to gate 426 is in fact quite comparable with the T1 to furthest 100 gates, particularly given three sets of escalators, and the walk through the duty free area in T2.

Jamie2k9

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Good to see the continued positive PAX figures for DUB especially in Jan which can be a quite month.
Any fgures on ORK, SNN or NOC.
The following link seems to work better for myself http://www.dublinairport.com/gns/at-the-airport/latest-news/16-02-09/Strong_Passenger_Growth_at_Dublin_Airport_in_January-2069495640.aspx

Not really relevant here but Cork up 6.5% last month.

sdanseo

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not really relevant here but Cork up 6.5% last month.

That's the runways. They're pointing in a different direction now, so attracting more people down from Limerick.

Magnetic Variation

:rolleyes:

JCX BXC

sdanseo wrote: »

That's the runways. They're pointing in a different direction now, so attracting more people down from Limerick.

Magnetic Variation

:rolleyes:

Not changed yet actually:rolleyes:

IRLConor

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

I've measure roughly 800 metres from Terminal 1 Security to the end of Pier D while onnly 500 metres from T2 to the end of the 400 pier.

From the kerb at T1 to the end of D is ~950m by my measurement. From the kerb at T2 to the last of the 4xx gates is ~650m by the same method.

I've never understood the whining about the distances involved. If walking <1km is a problem for you then OCS will be more than happy to wheel you to your plane. If you're capable of walking but just don't want to, well... that's just laziness tbh.

JCX BXC

I take it none of you have walked to Concourse C in Palma de Mallorca airport only to have to walk all the way back and then go to Concorse A!
The estimate from Security to Concourse C is 20+ mins on the Sign posts in the airport, so not fun!

Irish Steve

IRLConor wrote: »

From the kerb at T1 to the end of D is ~950m by my measurement. From the kerb at T2 to the last of the 4xx gates is ~650m by the same method.

I've never understood the whining about the distances involved. If walking <1km is a problem for you then OCS will be more than happy to wheel you to your plane. If you're capable of walking but just don't want to, well... that's just laziness tbh.

For a fit person, yes, it's not an issue, but for a family, 2 adults, with 3 young children, 2 buggies and 5 pieces of carry on hand luggage, 1 Km can seem insurmountable, simply due to the logistics of getting everything going in the right direction at the same time.

Then there's the older passengers that DO have mobility or other health issues, but don't want to accept or admit to it, so don't use the services of OCS to get to the gate, and end up with respiratory distress or worse as a result.

Unfortunately, laziness is engrained in the culture, how often do you see cars left illegally on double yellow lines outside a shop, when there is parking available less than 50 metres away?

The size of modern aircraft unfortunately means that the stands to access them are further apart than they used to be, if you think Dublin is bad, have you ever travelled through Istanbul, the distances from door to aircraft there are considerably longer than the distances at Dublin.