Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

lucernarian

Idbatterim wrote: »

Pilots appeal Dublin Airport plans over Metro North link

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/pilots-appeal-dublin-airport-plans-over-metro-north-link-1.2811950

I dont know if Ialpa are right or wrong, but I am glad if potential issues have been raised one way or another...

Indeed. I really wonder if the DAA are all that positive about Metro North being built - they won't be able to charge people taking it, unlike the existing car parks and bus services...

Jamie2k9

lucernarian wrote: »

Indeed. I really wonder if the DAA are all that positive about Metro North being built - they won't be able to charge people taking it, unlike the existing car parks and bus services...

I don't think it will make much difference as people who drive to Dublin Airport at the minute will not because there is a metro. The biggest losers will be Dublin Bus and Aircoach services.

Pilots appeal Dublin Airport plans over Metro North link

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...link-1.2811950

I dont know if Ialpa are right or wrong, but I am glad if potential issues have been raised one way or another...

I think they are doing it because they are annoyed at the daa or they feel some of the recent appeals will not pass such as the bus lanes.

lucernarian

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I don't think it will make much difference as people who drive to Dublin Airport at the minute will not because there is a metro. The biggest losers will be Dublin Bus and Aircoach services.

... who pay money to the DAA to be able to do so, as I just pointed out.

Jamie2k9

lucernarian wrote: »

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I don't think it will make much difference as people who drive to Dublin Airport at the minute will not because there is a metro. The biggest losers will be Dublin Bus and Aircoach services.

... who pay money to the DAA to be able to do so, as I just pointed out.

They pay for the bus stop, buses are not going to end if a metro is built. The price is not based on frequency of services.

There will be little price differsnce in bus/train ride to the coty so people will decide which to take.

I don't see daa loing much.

lucernarian

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They pay for the bus stop, buses are not going to end if a metro is built. The price is not based on frequency of services.

There will be little price differsnce in bus/train ride to the coty so people will decide which to take.

I don't see daa loing much.

Without meaning to sound like I'm put out over some opinion on the interwebs, you sound like you're disagreeing for the sake of it.

I can't think that the number of services would be unaltered while the frequency would decrease. Even more relevant, that some services have stops at each terminal, which costs a lot (6 digits per renewal, which is every 5 years I think).

And then, what of the context behind the IALPA appeal to an Bord Pleanála? Where exactly will the site for the metro north fit in with their master plan? civils, tunnel portal, dirt excavation and all?

Jamie2k9

lucernarian wrote: »

Without meaning to sound like I'm put out over some opinion on the interwebs, you sound like you're disagreeing for the sake of it.

I can't think that the number of services would be unaltered while the frequency would decrease. Even more relevant, that some services have stops at each terminal, which costs a lot (6 digits per renewal, which is every 5 years I think).

And then, what of the context behind the IALPA appeal to an Bord Pleanála? Where exactly will the site for the metro north fit in with their master plan? civils, tunnel portal, dirt excavation and all?

Not a lot will change but what will happen is DB and Aircoach will look to new area's of the city to serve and while some freq may change the metro will not suit everyone. Journey times will be similar so it could well come down to cheapest for many. If you are traveled well you would know airports in Europe have a rail and a high freq bus service side by side and I don't see why Dublin would be any different.

Could be argued the rail links to one or two airports have been a bit of a flop.

Anyway we are talking at around 15 years before it might happen.....and Luas has not managed to kill of DB has it!

AndyBoBandy

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Simply because they would be using T1 for half the flights anyway.

Like at LHR space is a problem. The level of feed BA will deliver to EI isn't significant.

so why not increase capacity on 3 or 4 flights a day, by either using an A321/757/767 from T2, and scrap the flights departing from T1 all together?

JCX BXC

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

so why not increase capacity on 3 or 4 flights a day, by either using an A321/757/767 from T2, and scrap the flights departing from T1 all together?

Because people want frequency. And as well as that many connect in LHR.

lucernarian

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not a lot will change but what will happen is DB and Aircoach will look to new area's of the city to serve and while some freq may change the metro will not suit everyone. Journey times will be similar so it could well come down to cheapest for many. If you are traveled well you would know airports in Europe have a rail and a high freq bus service side by side and I don't see why Dublin would be any different.

Could be argued the rail links to one or two airports have been a bit of a flop.

Anyway we are talking at around 15 years before it might happen.....and Luas has not managed to kill of DB has it!

This is all true, but I don't think that addresses the problem in that the DAA will inherently be unable to make any money directly from Metro North. I can only read between the lines like many of us here, and the impression I get is the DAA are rather muted about Metro North and the benefits it would bring to the airport.

Did they even make a submission to the North Dublin transport needs study that Aecom produced?

Jamie2k9

lucernarian wrote: »

This is all true, but I don't think that addresses the problem in that the DAA will inherently be unable to make any money directly from Metro North. I can only read between the lines like many of us here, and the impression I get is the DAA are rather muted about Metro North and the benefits it would bring to the airport.

Did they even make a submission to the North Dublin transport needs study that Aecom produced?

Yeah you may have a point. Only around 35% of passengers used buses to the airport last year and when you strip out National routes and area's outside Dublin city center it's probably close to 20%, the same % who take a taxi.

The daa know such revenue scheme's are under pressure and CAR also suggested the same time such as parking revenue and so on.

plodder

The last two mornings I've passed the current runway just before 8am. I counted twelve flights lined up to take off yesterday, with a few landing at same time and about ten this morning. I guess that's probably the busiest hour, but still it has to be eating into the schedule for those flights, and they need this second runway asap.

Also, I flew out through T2 a few weeks ago and the Aer Lingus checkin area was absolute bedlam. Granted the checkin machines weren't working for US flights, with no hint about that unless you could find someone to ask. What I was told "you could try the other machines down the end ..."

But, it seems there is a problem with peak time capacity in T2 also. They need to start planning a third terminal.

Maybe give Aer Lingus T2, let Ryanair build T3 and move everyone else into T1.....

Thoughts?

Blut2

plodder wrote: »

The last two mornings I've passed the current runway just before 8am. I counted twelve flights lined up to take off yesterday, with a few landing at same time and about ten this morning. I guess that's probably the busiest hour, but still it has to be eating into the schedule for those flights, and they need this second runway asap.

Also, I flew out through T2 a few weeks ago and the Aer Lingus checkin area was absolute bedlam. Granted the checkin machines weren't working for US flights, with no hint about that unless you could find someone to ask. What I was told "you could try the other machines down the end ..."

But, it seems there is a problem with peak time capacity in T2 also. They need to start planning a third terminal.

Maybe give Aer Lingus T2, let Ryanair build T3 and move everyone else into T1.....

Thoughts?

Its a nice plan. DUB would need an additional 10mn+ passengers a year spread along current lines between Aer Lingus/Ryanair/everyone else before it happens, though. But if that happens in the future putting Ryanair into a T3 by themselves would make sense given their lack of onwards connections.

devnull

Generally I think T1 copes right now even with early morning rush apart from the fact security can be a bottleneck, the biggest bottleneck right now for me as someone who takes early morning flights is the queue for the runway which is getting to ridiculous levels but if you look at the flight schedule, it's hardly surprising.

The number of flights due to depart between 6.10 - 7:30 or so is huge, and the number that are leaving is so high that it's impossible for them all to get out on time. For example there are 52 flights between 6.10 and 7.30 on Wednesday and that is the quietest day of the week, no wonder you see queues for the runway the length some have spoken about. Between 7.25 and 7.30 there are 13 flights!

737max

Bigger planes like A321 and A330 to London Heathrow/Gatwick and congestion on the runway during peak hours would be reduced. Even 737max help but you won't hear Ryanair complaining because they aren't in a position to migrate to planes beyond 737max.
Dublin Airport not the Airlines would need to take the lead here and not the airlines. The Airlines want general purpose 737/A320 and the route between Dublin and London needs big planes delivering passengers in to London before 10am each day.

devnull

Bigger planes doesn't always work out well for passengers, there is a trade off between capacity and giving people enough options between flight times, there are some leisure trips I might not take if there was only a morning flight vs a morning and late evening.

plodder

Also, given a choice between two flights to same short haul destination, I'd always prefer the smaller plane for the general convenience.

737max

It is stuff like this which I mean:
Southampton Flybe BE382 07 Oct 08:40
London-LGW Aer Lingus EI232 07 Oct 08:40
London - LCY Cityjet WX114 07 Oct 08:40
London-LHR British Airways BA833 07 Oct 08:45
London - LCY British Airways BA4463 07 Oct 08:45

Southampton is about the same distance to London as Mannheim to Frankfurt

Let the small planes get as much access to the runway as they want outside of 6:50 to 9:00 but in that time window nobody can argue that the Dublin runway isn't a precious resource.

Here is another
London-LTN Ryanair FR332 07 Oct 08:15
London-STN Ryanair FR206 07 Oct 08:20

and here is another
London-LHR Aer Lingus EI154 07 Oct 07:40
London-LHR British Airways BA831 07 Oct 07:40
leaving from different terminals; they can't be a code share from the same group.

London-LGW Aer Lingus EI230 07 Oct 07:35
London-LGW Ryanair FR112 07 Oct 07:35
Do you like a blue tail on your plane or a green tail when going to the same destination.

The competition between Ryanair and Aer Lingus has been great but that runway is a precious resource and now that London has convinced UK to Brexit we need to be concentrating on the guys who are still in the party; that is the rest of E.U. and perhaps a few flights passing through on their way across the ocean.

devnull

737max wrote: »

London-LTN Ryanair FR332 07 Oct 08:15
London-STN Ryanair FR206 07 Oct 08:20

They both serve very different markets to be fair however, believe it or not, not everyone is going to London just because they get a flight to an airport that is deemed as being London, they simply fly to the airport nearest where they want to go.

If they want to go to Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridge or Essex they will choose Stansted as it has excellent public transport links to these areas, meanwhile those going to Befordshire, Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire etc will always pick Luton.

This is what people forget when they moan about airports other than the big cities being small and out of the way and nobody wants to go there, people forget that people come from small cities and large Towns which do not have airports too....

The competition between Ryanair and Aer Lingus has been great but that runway is a precious resource and now that London has convinced UK to Brexit we need to be concentrating on the guys who are still in the party; that is the rest of E.U. and perhaps a few flights passing through on their way across the ocean.

A new runway is needed, or alternatively the option to start flights earlier. Other airports across Europe with this issue have started flights earlier from example at 5.30am instead of 6.10am to spread the morning load better.

737max

Why are you trying to turn this in to an argument about whether a new runway is needed or not. with one, two or three runways they'd still be scarce resources.

devnull

737max wrote: »

Why are you trying to turn this in to an argument about whether a new runway is needed or not. with one, two or three runways they'd still be scarce resources.

Because that is what this thread is about?

I go through Dublin Airport early morning on quite a regular basis and the biggest problem right now is the queue for the runway in the mornings which can be over half an hour waiting around because there is a long queue of planes.

The last thing we need to do is add more gates, because it's going to not fix the underlaying problem in that we can barely service the ones there are at the moment.

Blut2

To be fair to 737max although most of his flight pairings aren't really comparable, there is the odd one that is:

London-LHR Aer Lingus EI154 07 Oct 07:40
London-LHR British Airways BA831 07 Oct 07:40

Ones like the above you'd hope that with both the morning congestion in DUB, and the value of slots in LHR, that IAG would move to consolidate to a single larger plane.

If the start of departures could be moved up to 0500 (from the current 0545 I believe?) it might help too. Thats probably too early for business related flights but holiday makers on the early morning Malaga, Lanzerote etc flights would probably suck it up. And I'd imagine EI & FR would love having an hour less time wasted overnighting for their aircraft.

devnull

Blut2 wrote: »

To be fair to 737max although most of his flight pairings aren't really comparable, there is the odd one that is:

London-LHR Aer Lingus EI154 07 Oct 07:40
London-LHR British Airways BA831 07 Oct 07:40

Ones like the above you'd hope that with both the morning congestion in DUB, and the value of slots in LHR, that IAG would move to consolidate to a single larger plane.

That one I agree is a little mad, considering they are both owned by the same company!

However if they did something, they'd have the people moaning that AL and BA were supposed to be operated as separate brands and by combining them it would not be happening. But as far as business sense goes, it should happen.

If the start of departures could be moved up to 0500 (from the current 0545 I believe?) it might help too. Thats probably too early for business related flights but holiday makers on the early morning Malaga, Lanzerote etc flights would probably suck it up. And I'd imagine EI & FR would love having an hour less time wasted overnighting for their aircraft.

I agree, and to be honest on some of the flights FR are building in longer than minimum 25 minute turnarounds on some of the flights run by Dublin based crews, which in part helps them combat the delays they hit in the morning. In the summer months I've rarely had a FR flight land on time, not because of anything FR are doing wrong, but simply you sit in a long queue every morning for departure.

Dardania

As blut2 notes, the LHR slots are valuable-IAG might be trying to hold on to them (use them or lose them)

JCX BXC

737max wrote: »

It is stuff like this which I mean:
Southampton Flybe BE382 07 Oct 08:40
London-LGW Aer Lingus EI232 07 Oct 08:40
London - LCY Cityjet WX114 07 Oct 08:40
London-LHR British Airways BA833 07 Oct 08:45
London - LCY British Airways BA4463 07 Oct 08:45

Southampton is about the same distance to London as Mannheim to Frankfurt

Let the small planes get as much access to the runway as they want outside of 6:50 to 9:00 but in that time window nobody can argue that the Dublin runway isn't a precious resource.

Here is another
London-LTN Ryanair FR332 07 Oct 08:15
London-STN Ryanair FR206 07 Oct 08:20

and here is another
London-LHR Aer Lingus EI154 07 Oct 07:40
London-LHR British Airways BA831 07 Oct 07:40
leaving from different terminals; they can't be a code share from the same group.

London-LGW Aer Lingus EI230 07 Oct 07:35
London-LGW Ryanair FR112 07 Oct 07:35
Do you like a blue tail on your plane or a green tail when going to the same destination.

The competition between Ryanair and Aer Lingus has been great but that runway is a precious resource and now that London has convinced UK to Brexit we need to be concentrating on the guys who are still in the party; that is the rest of E.U. and perhaps a few flights passing through on their way across the ocean.

Alot of the flights you post are after 8am, almost all congestion is gone by 8am, so completely invalid point.

plodder

Dardania wrote: »

As blut2 notes, the LHR slots are valuable-IAG might be trying to hold on to them (use them or lose them)

IAG would probably be only too happy to reassign one of them to another route. I guess we don't want that to happen though.

737max

Carnacalla wrote: »

Alot of the flights you post are after 8am, almost all congestion is gone by 8am, so completely invalid point.

your interpretation of "completely" is puzzling.
Two planes going to LGW at the same time and two planes going to LHR at the same time 5 minutes later all before 8am. Two of those planes operating under different brands of the same company leaving at the exact same time going to the same destination.

Since the number of departures in the 7am hour has increased by 35 per cent since 2006 there are two flights there(out of four) in a 60 minute hour which are of questionable benefit to the stakeholders in the airport.

737max

plodder wrote: »

IAG would probably be only too happy to reassign one of them to another route. I guess we don't want that to happen though.

We do if it means that a plane still overnights in Dublin and services a new previously un-served or under-served route.
For example who wants to be flying in to Stuttgart on an Aer Lingus plane just as all the businesses are closing in the afternoon. Is that route a failure because nobody needs to go to Stuttgart or because the timings and frequency are rubbish.

JCX BXC

737max wrote: »

your interpretation of "completely" is puzzling.
Two planes going to LGW at the same time and two planes going to LHR at the same time 5 minutes later all before 8am. Two of those planes operating under different brands of the same company leaving at the exact same time going to the same destination.

Since the number of departures in the 7am hour has increased by 35 per cent since 2006 there are two flights there(out of four) in a 60 minute hour which are of questionable benefit to the stakeholders in the airport.

What difference does it make to the Stakeholders? Would a Ryanair route to Europe somehow give the airport a significantly larger fee?

JCX BXC

737max wrote: »

We do if it means that a plane still overnights in Dublin and services a new previously un-served or under-served route.
For example who wants to be flying in to Stuttgart on an Aer Lingus plane just as all the businesses are closing in the afternoon. Is that route a failure because nobody needs to go to Stuttgart or because the timings and frequency are rubbish.

Why should an airline compromise it's schedule and yield just because another airline serves the same route? BA and EI do still have different intellect, and fly to different terminals in both airports.

737max

A route early morning from any provider between Dublin and Stuttgart as an example would possibly entice business to locate in Ireland. Aer Lingus and Ryanair aren't the only players. A route which has a mix of business and pleasure travellers is sustainable year round.
A route from any other location in to Dublin would further the Airport's aspirations to become an international hub. Duplication of routes from existing international hubs doesn't help.