Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

Gaoth Laidir

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Eastern bloc & Eastern Europe are 2 different things.

I guess having lived out there, I can understand why they don't like being called Eastern European, the same way Irish people don't like being called English, or Canadians don't like being called American etc...

Anyway, enough of that, this is a Dublin airport thread.

Yes well that's what I was talking about until you brought this nonsense up.

Blut2

Beijing is already in-range of DUB currently, I believe. Extending the runway is a no-brainer though - it would cost relatively little and create new options for DUB. What remains of the Shannon lobby are the only people I could see being against it.

The big potentials medium/long term I'd see would be Sao Paulo in South America, Cape Town or Jo'burg in Africa, and Hong Kong or Singapore in Asia.

JCX BXC

Blut2 wrote: »

What remains of the Shannon lobby are the only people I could see being against it.

For the new runway only the residents are against it from what I can see.

Gaoth Laidir

Beijing would only be in range if conditions are right. There would be some times of the year when the current runway would not be long enough.

Donegal Storm

Beijing is comparable in distance to LAX though and you'd have the jet stream in favour. Are there any restrictions on LA flights?

I've always thought Bangkok would be a more obvious Asian link in that it'd presumably attract significant leisure traffic on top of the hub options. Presumably BKK is out of range of the runway at the moment though

Avada

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Beijing would only be in range if conditions are right. There would be some times of the year when the current runway would not be long enough.

Someone should tell the airlines that

Arthur Daley

How much longer is it going to be economical to fly non stop to south america, singapore or Hong kong from Dublin?

With peak oil? If the numbers didn't stack up to do this 20 years ago, are they better now? Would Dublin be jumping into a mature, declining market making this move?

Phen2206

IngazZagni wrote: »

The new runway length of 3100 metres will be more than adequate.  Extending the existing runway would be a colossal waste of money I feel.

I agree. Don't forget that Dublin is NOT hot and high. Aircraft performance does not depend solely upon runway length. Airports such as Istanbul are located in hot climates where extra runway length is necessary due to average daily temperatures. Performance on most days out of Dublin would be good enough to allow the vast majority of potential heavy long haul departures off the new runway at its current planned length. It will likely have a clearway at either end which will also improve the available take off distance.

JCX BXC

Worth noting that Istanbul Ataturk has runways of 3000m, copes perfectly fine with them even with the much higher summer temperatures.

Idbatterim

https://www.dublinairport.com/latest-news/detail/1.8-million-passengers-in-february-at-dublin-airport

Almost 1.8 million passengers passed through Dublin Airport in February, a 4% increase over the same month last year.

The increase in passenger numbers came despite the fact that there was one day less in February this year as 2016 was a leap year.

Passenger volumes to and from continental Europe increased by 4% with more than 852,000 passengers travelling to and from European destinations.

UK traffic remained static when compared to last year with 750,000 passengers travelling to and from Britain in February.

Passenger volumes to and from North America grew by 28% with almost 127,000 passengers travelling on this sector in February.

Other international traffic, principally on routes to and from the Middle East, grew by 10% with over 55,000 passengers travelling on these routes in February. Almost 7,000 passengers travelled on domestic routes last month, a 9% increase over February 2016.

The number of passengers using Dublin Airport as a hub to connect to another destination increased by 81% as more 59,000 passengers connected through the airport last month.

More than 3.6 million passengers have used Dublin Airport in the first two months of this year, which is a 6% increase on the same period in 2016.

Peregrine

Planning permission extended by 5 years. Current 10 year permission would have expired this year.
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/dublin-airport-runway-gets-five-year-planning-extension-1.3005433

Irish Steve

Having just taken a short break away to Hamburg, the difference between Hamburg and Dublin bears some comparison. Hamburg handles about half the annual volume of passengers compared to Dublin, and in terms of distance from the centre of the city, there's not a lot of difference between them. The population of Hamburg Urban area is higher than Dublin, but not by a massive difference, where the 2 are very different is the ease of getting to the airport, and commuting in the city, in that Hamburg has a direct rail link from the centre of the city running at 10 minute intervals, with each train being about 8 coaches length, so a capacity of of probably close on 500 people at peak periods, and the station, (only 2 tracks) is very close to both terminals, which is very different from any of the proposals that have been put forward for Dublin. Hamburg also has a very comprehensive rail network that operates at high frequency for most of the day, and it was very clear that it works very well.

I could spend a lot of time talking about the public transport system in Hamburg, they are 20 years at least ahead of anything in Dublin, and the result is that they have a system that works, very well, and it is used by significant numbers of people, both off peak and at peak periods. The ticketing system is a lot better than that offered by Leap, and there's a lot less checking of tickets, which may not be such a good idea, but the important factor is that the system works well. Hamburg has a much higher percentage of apartment complexes, so the population density is much higher than Dublin's sprawl, which may affect the numbers that can use the trains, the important factor, which was very evident, the trains can and do move many more people than can every be possible using buses.

The reality is that one train (heavy, light or underground) carries as many passengers as up to 8 buses at peak periods, and at peak, in the inner ring, which is pretty large, there is a train every 5 minutes on most routes, and the timetables are organised in such a way that at main interchange stations, the trains are timed to meet at those stations. There is no way that buses can ever hope to carry the same number of people, simply because the dwell time at the stops would make it impossible for the number of buses to serve the route in the same way, and that's before the congestion factor is built in to the equation.

We had a very good break there, made better by a transport system that works, and it was made even more evident when we got back to Dublin, there's no information available at the airport to even indicate which stop of a choice of 6 is the right stop for a particular route, so it was pure luck that we managed to get the bus we were looking for, as it was late, and we'd not found the right stop when it came through, but even the driver wasn't completely certain which was the right stop, and he stopped close enough that were were able to get on to it before it left. If it had gone to the right stop, we'd have been struggling to get to it before it left.

From what I can see of it, DAA don't want to encourage any form of rail connection, their preferred location for the metro station is a long way from the terminals, which makes no sense, and they seem to be less than enthusiastic about buses, if their lack of clear information about the location of the stops for the bus services is anything to go by, which probably and unfortunately is down to their dependence on the revenue stream they get from the car parking and taxi access fees, which are significant, and the reality is that we don't have any politicians with vision for the Dublin area, so this is unlikely to change any time soon.

In most other respects, there is not a lot of difference between the services and systems of the 2 airports, and in fairness, security at Dublin is better than it used to be, and we were through immigration at Dublin on return a lot quicker than the last time I came through.

Another interesting similarity that was a surprise is that Hamburg does not completely segregate arriving and departing passengers, which I thought was now a requirement, but they must have found a way to deal with that.

Open Up

Irish Steve wrote: »

their preferred location for the metro station is a long way from the terminals

On that point, the proposed stop is actually adjacent to the T2 short-term car park. So not far at all, certainly not from T2.

Jamie2k9

their preferred location for the metro station is a long way from the terminals

Come on it's comparable to most airports in terms of distance, really splitting hairs.

and they seem to be less than enthusiastic about buses,

Really??

down to their dependence on the revenue stream they get from the car parking

Revere is more less in decline and the regulator knows it hence why they are forecasting less revenue from all future decisions on charges.

jamo2oo9

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Come on it's comparable to most airports in terms of distance, really splitting hairs.

Really??

Revere is more less in decline and the regulator knows it hence why they are forecasting less revenue from all future decisions on charges.

Where is the proposed location for the metro in the airport?

lord lucan

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

Where is the proposed location for the metro in the airport?

Currently a surface car park between the church and the T2 multistorey car park.

jamo2oo9

lord lucan wrote: »

Currently a surface car park between the church and the T2 multistorey car park.

That's hardly a hike of a walk to the terminals. Pretty similar to what Paris, Munich and Manchester have.

billie1b

This here is the proposed location of it for people who aren't that familiar, this is the new location, the original location was beside the Radisson Blu hotel, nearly a kilometre walk to the terminal

L1011

300m from T1 and 400m from T2. They need to upgrade the covers, but that's within normal range.

lucernarian

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Revere is more less in decline and the regulator knows it hence why they are forecasting less revenue from all future decisions on charges.

That doesn't really address the point that was made though. The DAA seem very reluctant to even provide mediocre improvements to bus facilities.Treating public buses as a revenue stream in and of themselves,is further evidence of that irrespective of the long term outlook.

Peregrine

billie1b wrote: »

This here is the proposed location of it for people who aren't that familiar, this is the new location, the original location was beside the Radisson Blu hotel, nearly a kilometre walk to the terminal

The stop entrances would have been located on the northern end of than carpark and in the carpark to the south. i.e. beside the bus stops and as close to the airport as possible.

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/eis-metro-north/09-LMN000TO103001A.pdf

This is RPA's Metro North plan which received a railway order in 2011 for 10 years. It's shelved at the moment for an 'optimised' version which is really just a bunch of silly cost-saving measures which will end up costing more in the long run and has to go through the planning process all over again. Alan Farrell TD believes this plan expired many years ago. It's ready to be built tomorrow.

Which plan had a stop near the Radisson?

MJohnston

Peregrine wrote: »

The stop entrances would have been located on the northern end of than carpark and in the carpark to the south. i.e. beside the bus stops and as close to the airport as possible.

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/eis-metro-north/09-LMN000TO103001A.pdf

This is RPA's Metro North plan which received a railway order in 2011 for 10 years. It's shelved at the moment for an 'optimised' version which is really just a bunch of silly cost-saving measures which will end up costing more in the long run and has to go through the planning process all over again. Alan Farrell TD believes this plan expired many years ago. It's ready to be built tomorrow.

Which plan had a stop near the Radisson?

It's mentioned on the Metro North wiki page, pre-2006 it seems to have been the plan, as DAA wanted to avoid tunnelling under the airport.

Irish Steve

I find the location that's shown on the map images hard to believe, in as much as the size suggests that the trains will be very short, almost luas length, which makes little sense. The last (underground) location I saw was over by the Great Southern, which in comparison to a lot of metro type systems is a stop away from the end of the line, based on the station at Hamburg, there are 2 platforms, which in their case are end of line, not through station, and don't take huge space. DAA being reluctant to tunnel under the airport seems to be a good excuse for doing nothing, the technology to tunnel without significant disturbance to structures and areas above the tunnel has been long proved, I don't remember too many issues with the Port Tunnel, which has been around for some time now, and a massive project for Crossrail in London seems to have been managed without collapsing anything.

Properly planned for the long term (too often an impossible dream in this country), it would make a lot of sense to have a light rail system that not only gets people to and from the airport, but also links the car parks with the terminals, one of the issues that's conveniently forgotten about is the number of people that work on the airport site, and who have to get there at all hours of the day and night, if parking for staff could be facilitated off site, that one change alone would free up significant land space in the core of the airport, and reduce the cost of accommodating the staff parking.

At one time, there were long term aspirations to have additional terminal capacity at the western end of the airport, between the runways, and while it's been quiet on that subject for some time, I still anticipate that expansion will end up happening in that area at some stage, and properly planned (those words again), a rail link that would be capable of serving that area as well, along with the existing central core would be much better than putting the infrastructure in place, and then having to think about how to provide access to it, and such a rail link would also facilitate inter terminal transfers, along the same lines as is possible at Heathrow via the underground services there.

The other consideration about (electric) trains is that an increased use of trains around the airport would help to reduce the pollution issues that are a combination of aircraft and road vehicle emissions, while it's not even on the agenda here yet, it's an issue that's causing concerns at some of the larger airports in other countries, and will at some stage become an issue here as well.

Peregrine

Irish Steve wrote: »

I find the location that's shown on the map images hard to believe, in as much as the size suggests that the trains will be very short, almost luas length, which makes little sense.

They're 90m platforms and the PDF I posted is a drawing from the 2011 Metro North railway order.

Ground level: http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/eis-metro-north/09-LMN000TO103001A.pdf
Concourse and mezzanie: http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/eis-metro-north/09-LMN000TO103001A.pdf
Platform level: http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/eis-metro-north/11-LMN000TO103003A.pdf
Cross sections: http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/eis-metro-north/12-LMN000TO103004A.pdf

The new and 'optimised' Metro North would 'optimise' that to 60m platforms. Extending an underground station box is difficult and expensive. The mind boggles.

billie1b

Peregrine wrote: »

The stop entrances would have been located on the northern end of than carpark and in the carpark to the south. i.e. beside the bus stops and as close to the airport as possible.

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/eis-metro-north/09-LMN000TO103001A.pdf

This is RPA's Metro North plan which received a railway order in 2011 for 10 years. It's shelved at the moment for an 'optimised' version which is really just a bunch of silly cost-saving measures which will end up costing more in the long run and has to go through the planning process all over again. Alan Farrell TD believes this plan expired many years ago. It's ready to be built tomorrow.

Which plan had a stop near the Radisson?

No stop at the Radisson, the original plans were to have the metro station located beside the Radisson blu (the purple staff car park), they changed the plans though as they would have had to tunnel under the airport and runway and DAA don't want this.

Chris_5339762

The very early plans had it near the Radisson about 700m away but were very quickly changed as everyone realized how stupid it was.

What they would probably do in other airports is tunnel from the current proposed 'carpark' stop directly into both terminals. Why, in a country so rainy, we insist on using a covered walkway when drier, nicer countries spend the extra cash and tunnel I don't know. We'll see, but I won't hold my breath for something as sensibly thought out as the continent.

medoc

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The very early plans had it near the Radisson about 700m away but were very quickly changed as everyone realized how stupid it was.

What they would probably do in other airports is tunnel from the current proposed 'carpark' stop directly into both terminals. Why, in a country so rainy, we insist on using a covered walkway when drier, nicer countries spend the extra cash and tunnel I don't know. We'll see, but I won't hold my breath for something as sensibly thought out as the continent.

Yes nothing wrong with short walking distances but realistically they need to be covered properly. It's not nice walking from T2 to the bus stops sometimes with the wind and rain we occasionally get in Dublin. Interchanges need to be as practical and user friendly as possible in transport systems too.

LXFlyer

For a start the government, as a matter of public policy, should be encouraging the use of public transport to/from the airport, and directing the relevant agencies to do whatever is needed to deliver this.

As a starting point, this should involve a proper bus terminal with indoor seating, departures boards, and covered walkways to/from the terminals. PSO services should be exempt from having to pay to use the facilities unlike the present nonsense.

It is utterly ludicrous that the only public bus services at Dublin Airport serves the R132 corridor. As a minimum a full network of local bus services from communities across north Dublin should be in place with first arrivals from 04:00.

Irish Steve

The comment I would make is that walking is fine for the young able bodied, it's a very different issue for older, or disabled, and with luggage as well, (and most underground services don't have luggage cart facilities) that's a very different and possibly prohibitive issue for a significant number of intending travellers, the intention should be to facilitate all the potential users, not just the able bodied, and to make the journey as simple and stress free as possible for all travellers.

In fairness to Bus Eireann, I would defend one aspect of their 109A service that serves the airport from Kells, Navan, Dunshaughlin, Ratoath and Ashbourne, that service is now 24/7, every hour. Overnight from 0030 to 0530, it also goes in to town to the main bus station, during the day though it only goes on from the airport to DCU, and then back to Kells. The route is not ideal, in that it goes to DCU via the Motorway, so in order to turn right at on to Collins Avenue at Whitehall, it can't use the bus lane, so in the mornings, I suspect that the delay is significant, and while the timetable shows it serving Ikea, the reality is that it stays on the Ballymun road, which is not a comfortable walking distance from Ikea if there are any bags or purchases involved.

The reality is that there's a long way to go for Dublin to have a working integrated public transport system, what's there now is better than it was when we first moved here some 25 years ago, but there's a lot more that could and should have been done, especially when there was money available to make the sort of infrastructure changes that are needed to get an effective system into place.

It can be done, it needs to be done, what's missing is the political will and commitment to making it happen. As for if it ever will, I'm not going to hold my breath, I don't see any of our present leadership having the courage to push through the changes needed, mainly because the returns from such schemes are not going to be seen within the life of one Dail session, so there's no votes to be gained for them, so they will go for the short term result every time, and we've seen where that gets us.

gezdub

Dublin bus DOES run on Sundays to and from the airport! 16, 41 747and 757 services all are available, just from a quick check..There's also Aircoach which runs everyday except Christmas Day. Plenty of buses there