Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

LXFlyer

gezdub wrote: »

Dublin bus DOES run on Sundays to and from the airport! 16, 41 747and 757 services all are available, just from a quick check..There's also Aircoach which runs everyday except Christmas Day. Plenty of buses there

The poster clearly meant that Dublin Bus operate a different timetable on Sundays to Dublin Airport at a much reduced level to weekdays, despite a full flight programme operating, and not that they don't serve the airport on Sundays.

denis halpenny

isnt it realy time the government got the finger out and start on the metro to the airport,not only the airport but a modern transport system
for dublin that would rival any other cities across the world.Why does everything so long to get done here.Exasperation.

Jamie2k9

As a starting point, this should involve a proper bus terminal with indoor seating, departures boards, and covered walkways to/from the terminals. PSO services should be exempt from having to pay to use the facilities unlike the present nonsense.

The walkways are covered. Extra seating and PIS would be positive but this comes down to NTA and operators who have little interest about facilities.

Very few PSO services serve the airport and should they be given yet another advantage over private operators (yes I know the point of PSO). You can bet BE have a good deal for fees and are paying far less than other operators. There is a reason why they have rapidly expanded their services from he airport year the last few years and are clearly making a healthy return. Should PSO services be exempt form tolls, same logic in my book.

I would however consider an incentive scheme for new routes.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Sorry where are you getting this from. The 747 and 757 starts at 06.30 on Sundays (04.45/05.00 Mon-Sat) and the last bus is at 00.30 Monday-Sunday. They are very quiet before 07.00 most days of the week anyway.

Yes the 16 and 41 start lather but demand on Sunday mornings ex DUB is generally lower combined with the majority driving or taking a taxi from hotel to the airport simply because it's much easier and convenient for many. They also finish at 23.30 same as Mon-Sat.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I'm not saying the bus service is prefect however it's pretty decent service even on a Sunday. Its just far easier for workers to drive and I don't think an improved bus service would change this. Tourist may want a regular service for the sake of 2-3 euro but dosn't justify a service.

Ideally the Airlink service should and prehaps might in time become 24h with a 30 minute service between 00.30 and 05.00.

The bus service is far from perfect at Dublin Airport and anyone who tries to say otherwise is kidding themselves. It's an example of how poorly designed our public transport services in our capital are.

This isn't about the service along the Swords Road Corridor - it is about the PSO public bus service as a whole to Dublin Airport.

The fact that you have the single largest employment location in north Dublin with the only local PSO bus services being the 16, 41 and 102 is ludicrous.

If government policy were followed through, the NTA and DAA between them would be forced to actually deliver a public transport PSO network from across north Dublin to facilitate airport workers for a start, and obviously passengers as well. The notion that airport/airline workers are grand, they can drive, as you seem to suggest, flies in the face of any coherent public transport policy.

At a bare minimum in my view a recast set of routes and timetables is needed, with the 4, 27b, 33a, 33b, and 140 all operating to the airport, the 16 taken out of the Beaumont loop (replaced by the 1), and additional orbitals added that link the likes of Blanchardstown or Raheny/Clontarf areas to the airport. They should have operating hours (certainly in the northern half of the city at least) that are compatible with staff hours at the airport.

The fact that the major PSO provider in Dublin is dissuaded from operating new services because it will incur additional charges from the DAA is just one of the most crazy ideas I have ever heard and government policy needs to stop this.

And again - surely a proper bus station, with proper internal waiting facilities and seating area, with departures boards should be provided. All of this is down to the DAA and NTA - there is an a massive amount that could be done that isn't.

It is indicative of the "ah sure it's grand" attitude that seems to prevail in this country and needs to stop. This is a good place to start frankly.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The walkways are covered.

The moment you walk out of the T1 car park building there is no cover whatsoever along each of the bays except for the small shelters at stops which are completely insufficient.

Again it is the small things like this that make a difference.

Jamie2k9

The fact that the major PSO provider in Dublin is dissuaded from operating new services because it will incur additional charges from the DAA is just one of the most crazy ideas I have ever heard and government policy needs to stop this.

How does it discourage them when it's the NTA paying the bill and not the bus operators.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

How does it discourage them when it's the NTA paying the bill and not the bus operators.

At the moment the NTA don't cover that - the operator has to pay that cost.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

How does it discourage them when it's the NTA paying the bill and not the bus operators.

At the moment the NTA don't cover that - the operator has to pay that cost.

If the NTA contracts x operation to run a service and it must run via airport the surly costs associated with PSO are given. No?

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If the NTA contracts x operation to run a service and it must run via airport the surly costs associated with PSO are given. No?

My understanding is that DB are still hit with those costs and it was one reason that they were reluctant to operate additional services to/from the airport.

The company gets a PSO subsidy set at EUR xx million each year, and that's what they have to operate within cost wise. It's not the other way around.

The provision of PSO services in Dublin isn't really as separated out as you might make out - what's provided is dictated to a large degree by what resources in terms of buses & drivers DB has available, and they do still have a considerable say in what services operate, when and where, because the NTA don't necessarily have the resources/expertise in house to do that.

This is slowly changing and the NTA are getting more control over the network, but it is a glacially slow process.

There is going to be an independent review carried out of the Dublin City PSO but network on behalf of the NTA this year and hopefully the poor network coverage at the airport can be addressed as part of that. The last review was effectively a Dublin Bus review following the Deloitte Report, and approved by the NTA - they have not really reviewed the network themselves yet.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

My understanding is that DB are still hit with those costs and it was one reason that they were reluctant to operate additional services to/from the airport.

The company gets a PSO subsidy set at EUR xx million each year, and that's what they have to operate within cost wise. It's not the other way around.

The provision of PSO services in Dublin isn't really as separated out as you might make out - what's provided is dictated to a large degree by what resources in terms of buses & drivers DB has available, and they do still have a considerable say in what services operate, when and where, because the NTA don't necessarily have the resources/expertise in house to do that.

This is slowly changing and the NTA are getting more control over the network, but it is a glacially slow process.

There is going to be an independent review carried out of the Dublin City PSO but network on behalf of the NTA this year and hopefully the poor network coverage at the airport can be addressed as part of that. The last review was effectively a Dublin Bus review following the Deloitte Report, and approved by the NTA - they have not really reviewed the network themselves yet.

Not to drag it to off topic but problems with airport services are very flawed PSO system and a lesser extent DB resources. PSO should cover the fee and the NTA could well put pressure on the daa but give them good deal.

I'm not saying I support the airport fee's however given the nature of airport business it's revenue from transport, taxi, retail, car parks is critical because airlines don't want to shoulder the cost and airports have little power to push it onto airlines because they are very mobile.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not to drag it to off topic but problems with airport services are very flawed PSO system and a lesser extent DB resources. PSO should cover the fee and the NTA could well put pressure on the daa but give them good deal.

I'm not saying I support the airport fee's however given the nature of airport business it's revenue from transport, taxi, retail, car parks is critical because airlines don't want to shoulder the cost and airports have little power to push it onto airlines because they are very mobile.

Historically the issue at Dublin Airport with regard to PSO city bus services has been Dublin Bus complete inability to think outside the box and their reluctance to incur additional costs by operating more routes to/from Dublin Airport.

Re the fees - as I've said before the NTA sets subsidies at a particular level within which costs have to be maintained. If they did it the other way around they would be giving the operators carte blanche to incur whatever costs they wanted. Therefore there is a disincentive to DB to operate additional routes to the airport as it means extra costs which they have to deal with.

What fundamentally needs to change is that the NTA gets to the point where they alone make the network decisions and the operator has to accept that - we aren't at that point yet in Dublin City. Hopefully the independent network review that is going to happen this year will address these issues.

At the same time the NTA and the DAA need to get to a point where government policy regarding public transport operation is put into place at Dublin Airport and PSO services are not seen as a revenue stream for the airport in terms of fees, and that proper waiting facilities are put in place.

The current situation is far from ideal in terms of network, facilities and operating hours.

gezdub

No the poster Clearly said there was NO dublin bus service from the airport, which is untrue, and even if it were, there are other bus ervices, running around the clock!

LXFlyer

gezdub wrote: »

No the poster Clearly said there was NO dublin bus service from the airport, which is untrue, and even if it were, there are other bus ervices, running around the clock!

That's not what they said. You've misread it.

They said:

moloner4 wrote: »

One thing we could is change immediately is Dublin Bus sunday service from the airport. The airport has no sunday service and buses shouldn't be with a sunday service aswell.

What they meant by that was that the flights from the airport don't have a different schedule on Sundays to the rest of the week, and that the bus service should reflect that. They did not mean that there was no bus service on Sundays at all.

Now I don't fully agree with that, in that quite clearly many UK destinations at least have fewer flights on Saturday evenings and Sunday mornings, but they do have a point - there are still many flights from just before 06:00.

Their point was the same as mine - the PSO bus service at the Airport is pretty awful in terms of network, operating hours and frequency, and needs a radical overhaul.

I'm sure they can come back and reiterate what they meant, but given they thanked my original explanation to you I suspect that I'm right.

Gaoth Laidir

Is this thread about the new runway or Dublin buses?

Avada

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Is this thread about the new runway or Dublin buses?

Its a thread about New Runway/Infrastructure. Personally I'd count public transport as infrastructure.

JCX BXC

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Is this thread about the new runway or Dublin buses?

New Runway/Infastructure

I'd imagine buses fall under that, do they not? Transport Infastructure is vital for the airport and I don't see why we shouldn't discuss it.

Phen2206

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/dubai-backers-in-deal-to-fund-2bn-mcevaddy-terminal-plan-35544011.html

Interesting article about potential development of a third terminal at DUB.

There seems to be a lot of opposition, mostly from the DAA, to a competing terminal. I don't know much about how a third terminal would work (i.e. who would run it, financial arrangements with the DAA etc), but I wonder is this supposed opposition based on financial worries; like taking airlines away from the DAA-run terminals? Or would it be be an operational nightmare in terms of overall airport management?

Irish Steve

There would be a number of issues, one of which would be the security of the area, and access permits, as that would have to be managed by the one organisation for the whole airport. I am sure that DAA would be reluctant to see this project go ahead, while they are now near enough a private sector company, they have a lot of historic semi state baggage, so it is likely that the new terminal will be able to offer some services at a lower price than those provided by the DAA.

There would be complications with linking the terminals, I don't have a map that shows the exact location of the proposed T3.

You can be sure that DAA are not going to fall into line easily or quickly, I'm sure they are still upset that they didn't manage to get control of that part of the land bank when it became available.

Phen2206

Interesting I hadn't considered security management etc. Just thinking out loud here - if the government deemed it necessary to provide a third terminal, and agreed with the DAA that it should not be a competing terminal, would the government be in a position to issue a compulsory purchase order like when building motorways/railways? Or is it simply tough luck now that the DAA didn't get hold of that land at the time? No doubt if the DAA were to try to purchase it now, any price would be sky high (no pun intended...)

Are there any comparable examples of airports that do have competing terminals in Europe?

Irish Steve

I think we can rest assured that if a CPO were to be sought, it would be fought to the highest courts in Ireland, and possibly further, and bluntly DAA's track record is not the best, they have managed to muddle through in recent years, but there are so many shortcomings with the present operation that could have been dealt with, the potential for a competitor to upset their cosy monopoly has to be being seen as a massive threat.

Avada

Would it being built privately and rented to DAA be an option I wonder? That would overcome a lot of the issues I would think.

Noxegon

Does anyone have a map showing exactly where these lands are?

yannakis

Connecting flights make airports attractive to passengers. Connecting passengers bring money to airports. It would be a very big mistake if they don't work out a connection between the terminals..

T3 surprisingly appears in Dublin Airport's Master Plan, and is located between the 2 runways:


Source: https://consult.fingal.ie/en/system/files/materials/1962/Draft%20Dublin%20Airport%20Central%20Masterplan_FEB2016.pdf (Page 9)

man98

Any private company operating T3 would be a great oversight and would be a poor move in general. The DAA are doing a good job running the existing infrastructure. Even things as simple as the blame culture which ppps bring along - constant litigation and fines being thrown out. While it may be MOL's wet dream it would be extremely unwise. The DAA operating it is merely common sense, as they can pocket and reinvest the profits rather than letting the airline bosses and T3 owners roll it in.

Peregrine

yannakis wrote: »

Connecting flights make airports attractive to passengers. Connecting passengers bring money to airports. It would be a very big mistake if they don't work out a connection between the terminals..

T3 surprisingly appears in Dublin Airport's Master Plan, and is located between the 2 runways:
[IMG]Source:[/img]https://consult.fingal.ie/en/system/files/materials/1962/Draft%20Dublin%20Airport%20Central%20Masterplan_FEB2016.pdf (Page 9)

That's not Dublin Airport's Masterplan. It's Fingal's local area plan from 2006. Any long term plans I've seen from the DAA are the plans in the Capital Investment Programme and they all pointed towards building Piers F and G for narrowbodies and rebuilding Pier B linearly for widebodies (which would take 16/34 out of action).

IIRC, there was very little talk of T3 until Shane Ross decided he should say something to make people think he actually knows something about transport.

Avada

Peregrine wrote: »

That's not Dublin Airport's Masterplan. It's Fingal's local area plan from 2006. Any long term plans I've seen from the DAA are the plans in the Capital Investment Programme and they all pointed towards building Piers F and G for narrowbodies and rebuilding Pier B linearly for widebodies (which would take 16/34 out of action).

IIRC, there was very little talk of T3 until Shane Ross decided he should say something to make people think he actually knows something about transport.

tbh I think Ross got confused and said Dublin needs another terminal rather than saying it needs another runway and has gone with it ever since...

Jamie2k9

man98 wrote: »

Any private company operating T3 would be a great oversight and would be a poor move in general. The DAA are doing a good job running the existing infrastructure. Even things as simple as the blame culture which ppps bring along - constant litigation and fines being thrown out. While it may be MOL's wet dream it would be extremely unwise. The DAA operating it is merely common sense, as they can pocket and reinvest the profits rather than letting the airline bosses and T3 owners roll it in.

Private operator would be bad but the daa are doing a good job, great is a stretch in some respects. Anyway there is little need for T3 anytime soon.

BonkeyDonker

Ultimately the only bits of real estate worth operating are the runways. You own those you make money.

JCX BXC

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

Ultimately the only bits of real estate worth operating are the runways. You own those you make money.

I'm not sure what you mean there, the terminal is a massive part of an airport, especially with all the businesses and duty free located in them!

And good look getting airlines to fly to an airport without a terminal....Or taxiways.....Or stands

jamo2oo9

JCX BXC wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean there, the terminal is a massive part of an airport, especially with all the businesses and duty free located in them!

And good look getting airlines to fly to an airport without a terminal....Or taxiways.....Or stands

If it was the opposite, what would you have? A terminal with all the fancy shabang but with no use if there's no runways/taxiways

Runway is the most vital part of the infrastructure for an airport. Without it, it can't function as an airport.