Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

Bebop

QUOTE=The cries of "put him in charge of the HSE he'll sort it out", yes the HSE where you would pay for oxygen and have to put in 50c to charge the paddles before they use them on you

We are getting into some serious topic creep here; maybe MOL can be persuaded to end his silence and give us something to talk about rather than endlessly recycling this kind of stuff

Jamie2k9

Dublinflyer wrote: »

There is a bit of room there for expansion in the check in building, the foundations are in place already, you just can't see them. The baggage handling collector belt was also built with expansion in mind and can be added onto easily and the back end can handle the capacity of the extra check in desks. There is also the land and plans for extra stands, a new pier. Now, how long it would take to build these and what would trigger the build is another thing, and the minor detail of paying for them. The stand planning this summer has been a challenge and the US pre clearance brings it's own problems, especially when delays happen. Next summer will be interesting with some of the airlines talking about more expansion.

They actually plan to expand the whole lot of the building, not just the check in hall to allow F be build with 12 narrow body stands. Would solve EI problem overnight if it was built.

daa expect the check in hall trigger likely to be in 2019 regulation submission however it wouldn't surprise me if F pier is to because it will be 2024 before the next period.

Dublinflyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They actually plan to expand the whole lot of the building, not just the check in hall to allow F be build with 12 narrow body stands. Would solve EI problem overnight if it was built.

Sorry, that's what I meant :eek:

If things keep going the way they are it will make for an interesting few years.

Idbatterim

Is the lack of a longer runway, currently impacting on business at dublin airport?

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

Is the lack of a longer runway, currently impacting on business at dublin airport?

Possibly to probably, it'll be more the runway length that's impacting business.

Irish Steve

If DAA wasn't under the political banner, and had people that understand aviation, rather than political appointees who are there as a quid pro quo for some other reason, there might be a chance that DAA would run the place, rather than SIPTU, and we all know what SIPTU's agenda is, and improving the quality of the product offered at Dublin Airport doesn't figure very high on that agenda. Some of the design decisions that have been made over time beggar description, I used to work airside, and there are so many issues that cause huge problems it's not funny. As an example, one of the outbound baggage halls had to have been designed by an architect that had never been near the working areas of a busy airport in his life, the twists and turns that are required to get equipment in and out of the place defy description, and there's no storage space close to the baggage hall, so things like containers that are needed for outbound flights have to be parked a long way from the hall, causing delays and problems with managing the flow of bags through the hall. The slope into the 6 bay arrivals baggage hall is an accident black spot in the winter months, there have been a number of accidents due to ice on the inbound slope, and there are limits on the number of bags that can be taken in at one time as a result, which causes more problems for fast delivery of bags to the passengers.

Even if DAA were really running the place, the chances of anything sensible happening any time soon is slim, regardless of how necessary it might be, or how much benefit it would bring to the national economy, the people at the top are about to go into "must get re-elected" mode, so anything that is even mildly controversial, or expensive, will get kicked into the long grass real soon, as we've already seen with the Howlin public pay pronouncement. Any serious expenditure is being mothballed, so even if it was self financing, expansion at Dublin is likely to be such a hot potato, or banana skin, (depending on your viewpoint), the politicians are going to run a mile from anything to do with Dublin Airport until after the next election.

Realistically, the airport needs a number of things in order to keep operating sensibly. 28R is going to be needed before too long, and if it's not needed to provide extra capacity or longer routes, it's going to be needed in order to allow repair work on the existing 28.

Cargo apron space is going to become an issue before too much longer, it's been neglected big time.

Wide body gates are an issue, and the problem is that wide body aircraft can't be turned round in 25 minutes, for all sorts of reasons, like fuel loading times, so the throughput on the wide body gates is a lot lower than on a narrow body gate.

The airport desperately needs a viable rail link into the city.

The Departures road at T1 needs to be completely reorganised to segregate passengers from the car park from the traffic on the set down road, and to make it safer for passengers exiting from vehicles, the through lane should go down the middle lane of the 3, with the set down being on either side, avoiding the hassle of trying to get through a line of parked taxis blocking the middle lane and making kerbside access almost impossible.

Another option would be to have a drop off and collect bay at one or both of the long term car parks, where people could be dropped or collected and then use the shuttle bus service to and from the terminals.

The roundabout at the entrance needs to be replaced by a graded junction, so that the traffic flow is smoother, while there is still time to make those sorts of changes, rather than after the junction reaches grid lock levels, which it will when traffic levels recover as the eventual improvement in the economy happens.

man98

25,000,000? Probably they weren't inspect the Travel Tax to be removed, increasing passenger numbers! And if the government are even thinking about spending the €2bn quoted on Page 1, why did they only dish out €150k on WAT's runway extension? I'd say lengthening ORK's runway to 9,000 feet or so to offload flights would be money better spent. Although they did build a €1bn to cope with increasing demand.

jamo2oo9

man98 wrote: »

25,000,000? Probably they weren't inspect the Travel Tax to be removed, increasing passenger numbers! And if the government are even thinking about spending the €2bn quoted on Page 1, why did they only dish out €150k on WAT's runway extension? I'd say lengthening ORK's runway to 9,000 feet or so to offload flights would be money better spent. Although they did build a €1bn to cope with increasing demand.

The problem is, tourists don't fly to Cork as much as Dublin. Dublin is the aviation hub in Ireland for tourists. Extending the runway in Cork wouldn't do Dublin any favours in terms of easing congestion.

johnnycage2008

does anyone know if they extend the existing main runway, will they extend it towards the East (e.g. coast) or towards the West (e.g.

Also, is it a sure thing that the Northern runway will go ahead ?
will this effect Malahide you think also ?

Thanks a million

sparrowcar

johnnycage2008 wrote: »

does anyone know if they extend the existing main runway, will they extend it towards the East (e.g. coast) or towards the West (e.g.

Also, is it a sure thing that the Northern runway will go ahead ?
will this effect Malahide you think also ?

Thanks a million

West
Yes, eventually.
No major affect to Malahide, other than approach over southern part of Malahide.

Dublinflyer

Irish Steve wrote: »

Wide body gates are an issue, and the problem is that wide body aircraft can't be turned round in 25 minutes, for all sorts of reasons, like fuel loading times, so the throughput on the wide body gates is a lot lower than on a narrow body gate.

IMO this is by far the most pressing issue we have here at the airport. the longer runway is needed but the problem of wide body parking, especially for CBP flights, needs to be sorted first.

johnnycage2008

Great Thanks Sparrow !!!

as soon as (if) Northern runway is built will that actually reduce traffic on the existing 10/28 ?
Any indication if one would be used for take off and the other for landings ?

also, does the wind usually come from West then ? and that is why they take off westerly ?

Thanks again !!

Irish Steve

johnnycage2008 wrote: »

Great Thanks Sparrow !!!

as soon as (if) Northern runway is built will that actually reduce traffic on the existing 10/28 ?
Any indication if one would be used for take off and the other for landings ?

also, does the wind usually come from West then ? and that is why they take off westerly ?

Thanks again !!

If the example of Heathrow is anything to go by, they swap runways at least once a day, and the normal operation is to use one for departures, and the other for arrivals.

If the 2 runways are different lengths, that can cause problems if the longer runway is being used for arrivals, and a departure needs the extra length, but it's manageable. Another thing that can help considerably is that they will put a slower aircraft (General aviation size) in to land on the departure runway, in parallel with jet arrivals on the other runway, as that can significantly improve the flow rate for arrivals, without causing problems for departures.

Westerly wind is most common, which means departures and arrivals are on 28, but having said that, I've been surprised by the number of occasions when 10 has been used over the last while, we've seen a lot more easterly winds over Ireland in the last few years than would have been normal.

johnnycage2008

Irish Steve wrote: »

If the example of Heathrow is anything to go by, they swap runways at least once a day, and the normal operation is to use one for departures, and the other for arrivals.

If the 2 runways are different lengths, that can cause problems if the longer runway is being used for arrivals, and a departure needs the extra length, but it's manageable. Another thing that can help considerably is that they will put a slower aircraft (General aviation size) in to land on the departure runway, in parallel with jet arrivals on the other runway, as that can significantly improve the flow rate for arrivals, without causing problems for departures.

Westerly wind is most common, which means departures and arrivals are on 28, but having said that, I've been surprised by the number of occasions when 10 has been used over the last while, we've seen a lot more easterly winds over Ireland in the last few years than would have been normal.

Great thanks Irish Steve... so i presume if the govt's cutoff is 25 million planes for northern runway to commence, then once built it should be an even enough split between the 2 runways e.g. initially about 12,5 million planes per runway.... ? therefore actually reducing traffic over existing flight paths ?

L1011

johnnycage2008 wrote: »

Great thanks Irish Steve... so i presume if the govt's cutoff is 25 million planes for northern runway to commence, then once built it should be an even enough split between the 2 runways e.g. initially about 12,5 million planes per runway.... ? therefore actually reducing traffic over existing flight paths ?

25 million passengers.

johnnycage2008

MYOB wrote: »

25 million passengers.

sorry meant 25 million passengers
25 million planes and we would be in trouble

IRLConor

Here are the approximate tracks for both the current 10/28 and the planned 10L/28R runways out to the east of the airport. IOW, for 10L/10R departures and 28L/28R arrivals.

ozzy jr

Two questions,


1. How much would the current runway need to be extended by, to be able to take all current type of passenger plane at there maximum take off weight?


2. How far does the end of the runway need to be from the perimeter fence?


I was cycling around the airport yesterday and my not so accurate measurement tells me there's approx. 900m currently between the end of the runway and the perimeter fence. Would there be enough space there at the moment to extend the runway or would the road at the west end of the airport need to be moved back further?

man98

ozzy jr wrote: »

Two questions,


1. How much would the current runway need to be extended by, to be able to take all current type of passenger plane at there maximum take off weight?


2. How far does the end of the runway need to be from the perimeter fence?


I was cycling around the airport yesterday and my not so accurate measurement tells me there's approx. 900m currently between the end of the runway and the perimeter fence. Would there be enough space there at the moment to extend the runway or would the road at the west end of the airport need to be moved back further?

Well, Dublin would need a 500 metre extension roughly to accommodate all aircraft I would say. Some Boeing 777s and Airbus A340s have trouble landing or taking off with Max. payload but I don't really see am issue with runways as the A330, 767, 787, A380, some 777s, 747s and A350 can land, and these are the future of aviation imo.

andy_g

As i said it somewhere before. The main runway 28/10 is in bits sure only last year a 738 burst tire's on landing due to the patch work. Later inspection of said A/C had even shown impact marks and that was not from the tire.

There was a report also on avherald about it i think.

So yes it does need the new rwy at dub.

billie1b

andy_g wrote: »

As i said it somewhere before. The main runway 28/10 is in bits sure only last year a 738 burst tire's on landing due to the patch work. Later inspection of said A/C had even shown impact marks and that was not from the tire.

There was a report also on avherald about it i think.

So yes it does need the new rwy at dub.

Come on, dont be lazy, linky please

andy_g

billie1b wrote: »

Come on, dont be lazy, linky please

Will linky when i get the chance.

billie1b

andy_g wrote: »

Will linky when i get the chance.

Thanks, I had a look but cant find anything, my heads killing me though.

johnnycage2008

Does anyone know how often the flights deviate the take-off/landing direction ?

I know normally they land East to West(come in over St Margerets), and then take off East to West, but depending on wind direction they may land West to East, and take off West to East.

However anyone know how often this actually happens say in a year ? Or is there any tracking information that could show this ?

Thanks a mill

BonkeyDonker

johnnycage2008 wrote: »

Does anyone know how often the flights deviate the take-off/landing direction ?

I know normally they land East to West(come in over St Margerets), and then take off East to West, but depending on wind direction they may land West to East, and take off West to East.

However anyone know how often this actually happens say in a year ? Or is there any tracking information that could show this ?

Thanks a mill

I would be surprised if any sort of accurate figures are kept as the direction of traffic for all runway configurations can change at any time, based upon many criteria. You could perhaps try the IAA or DAA, but outside that your best bet may be to sit down in front of FR24 or similar and review as much of it as you think you can.

peter1892

johnnycage2008 wrote: »

Does anyone know how often the flights deviate the take-off/landing direction ?

I know normally they land East to West(come in over St Margerets), and then take off East to West, but depending on wind direction they may land West to East, and take off West to East.

However anyone know how often this actually happens say in a year ? Or is there any tracking information that could show this ?

Thanks a mill

This isn't scientific or backed up with any evidence other than my own observations but I'd say that around 75% of the time runway 28 is in use - so that means approaches coming in over the sea and departures heading out over St. Margarets.

Today we've had runway 10 in use so the departing flights are heading east and out over the sea

But as I say, that's what I observe myself and I don't measure it in any way. I'd be curious to see real figures!

johnnycage2008

johnnycage2008 wrote: »

Does anyone know how often the flights deviate the take-off/landing direction ?

I know normally they land East to West(come in over St Margerets), and then take off East to West, but depending on wind direction they may land West to East, and take off West to East.

However anyone know how often this actually happens say in a year ? Or is there any tracking information that could show this ?

Thanks a mill

Figures a few years ago indicated 70%~28, 20%~10 and then the last 10% was split between 16/34.

Now those will probably have changed a bit towards 10 as the winds the last few years have been a bit more easterly and 34 is used for 90mins most mornings, but, while 34 is available you can sometimes only get 3-4 movements due wind direction so how do you calculate that, by movements or time it was in operation?

johnnycage2008

Cheers guys all great info.. i found this which clearly shows majority of the time wind comes from West (roll over Dublin airport to get the airport wind direction map)

This also gives an indication as to the wind power in knots based on overall percentage of direction.

Does anyone know how the airport use info such as this to determine when to shift take off/landing direction ?

is it simply if wind blows from East it takes off to East or does it also use e.g. a certain amount of knots to change direction ?

Thanks again

johnnycage2008

hmm cant post link

but google
met ireland climate wind

should find it

basill

As a general rule aircraft performance dictates that we take off into wind ie: have a headwind. We get better climb performance, use less runway etc. Most commercial aircraft have a tailwind limit in the order of 10kts.

ATC have to balance the wish of pilots to land and takeoff into wind with the commercial reality that switching runways can at certain times of the day/night with high traffic flows be a nightmare leading to long delays and/or diversions.

Certain airports around the world have terrain issues or are overly sensitive about noise which dictates which runway will be in use and pilots will be expected to take a max tailwind to land or depart.