Further fare hikes (2014)

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

It was the reference to the back to work scheme that annoyed me. The impression was created that it somehow contributed to this apparent black market in self employment.

Why get annoyed? Everything gets abused in this country.

Mikehaw

cdebru wrote: »

What actually needs to be looked at is the whole free travel scheme, 1.1 million adults in the country entitled to free travel. If we take it that 400,000 of them live in Dublin and Dublin Bus gets 25 million of the 60 million the government pays for the scheme that is about 63 euro per person and that is not including the rest of the holders of free travel passes who also have free travel when in Dublin.

An annual bus ticket is 1120 euro and Dublin Bus is being asked to carry these people for the year for about 60 euro. There is no company could survive having about 30 to 35% of your customers getting the service effectively free. ( and that is not counting the fraud that goes on with the social welfare passes)

The only option is to make the 65% of your customers who pay, pay more to cover the cost and that is what is happening.

It is not the sustainability of the cost base that needs to be looked at it is the sustainability of having 35% of your customers being subsidised to a massive extent by the rest.

People are correct if it is not sorted soon DB will be gone and so will any type of free travel for anyone, just like the bins now everyone pays.

In fairness at least with Dublin bus a very large % pay their way.

BE is the problem. Too many people with free passes who have no business using the service, only passing their time going from one end of the country to the other. Funny thing is they will be the first to complain too.

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

The much more important question is how much will revenue increase if the free travel is removed.

I say it will only increase by a small amount and the resulting drop in passengers will mean cuts in services across all state public transport services and the result will be massive job losses. There will also be a mass move by passe
ngers to private operators because they will be operating more efficiently and will have more services than the state operators, Irish Rail will be finished as at least half the staff would have to go as well as half the trains.

Sorry that makes zero sense, if trains and buses are only operating to carry people for free to give those people something to do, then that is a waste of resources.
However while i accept that some people are making journeys only becausr they are free but the simple fact is that CIE would not be worse off by those journeys not being made as they are not being paid for anyway.
Besides there are other options than complete scrappage like discount tickets. What is not sustainable is 1.1 million people travelling for free and 1.9 million paying for everyone.

Also it should be remembered that capacity opened up by those currently paying zero is now available to fare paying passengers allowing the operators to lower the cost to all travellers.

foggy_lad

cdebru wrote: »

Sorry that makes zero sense, if trains and buses are only operating to carry people for free to give those people something to do, then that is a waste of resources.
However while i accept that some people are making journeys only becausr they are free but the simple fact is that CIE would not be worse off by those journeys not being made as they are not being paid for anyway.
Besides there are other options than complete scrappage like discount tickets. What is not sustainable is 1.1 million people travelling for free and 1.9 million paying for everyone.

Also it should be remembered that capacity opened up by those currently paying zero is now available to fare paying passengers allowing the operators to lower the cost to all travellers.

There is no problem with capacity especially with irish rail and if those 1.1million or a large portion of them stop using buses and trains then state transport will collapse as there will need to be massive cuts in services and thousands of job losses. At the moment most buses to waterford/carlow are fairly well loaded but take out the free travel holders and a minibus service would do. But that would not happen, what will happen is a reduction in the frequency of services making it unattractive for even more paying passengers so bus eireann lose even more money.

Mikehaw

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is no problem with capacity especially with irish rail and if those 1.1million or a large portion of them stop using buses and trains then state transport will collapse as there will need to be massive cuts in services and thousands of job losses. At the moment most buses to waterford/carlow are fairly well loaded but take out the free travel holders and a minibus service would do. But that would not happen, what will happen is a reduction in the frequency of services making it unattractive for even more paying passengers so bus eireann lose even more money.

It would be a good thing if the free loaders(free pass users passing their time, yet still whinging) stopped using the service. Then cie could evaluate what services make economical sense and cut / reduce those that do not.

At the moment a lot of services are kept running because their are bums(literally) on seats not paying fares

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is no problem with capacity especially with irish rail and if those 1.1million or a large portion of them stop using buses and trains then state transport will collapse as there will need to be massive cuts in services and thousands of job losses. At the moment most buses to waterford/carlow are fairly well loaded but take out the free travel holders and a minibus service would do. But that would not happen, what will happen is a reduction in the frequency of services making it unattractive for even more paying passengers so bus eireann lose even more money.

No it costs money to provide capacity for people travelling for free, it makes no sense to suggest if people were not travelling for free that the companies would lose money.
Either they would travel and pay or not travel and capacity for them would not need to be provided.

foggy_lad

Mikehaw wrote: »

At the moment a lot of services are kept running because their are bums(literally) on seats not paying fares

Many services are kept running because there is a social need for such services, like in rural areas where there is a bus a few times a week to bring people to local towns for shopping etc or in larger areas where people are unable to get around without services like the 109.

I would suggest that in all the years of operating services if cie can't evaluate the real need for services then the first major saving should be feom their salaries.

monument

Mikehaw wrote: »

It would be a good thing if the free loaders(free pass users passing their time, yet still whinging) stopped using the service. Then cie could evaluate what services make economical sense and cut / reduce those that do not.

At the moment a lot of services are kept running because their are bums(literally) on seats not paying fares

Cut out the free loaders talk - moderator.

foggy_lad

cdebru wrote: »

No it costs money to provide capacity for people travelling for free, it makes no sense to suggest if people were not travelling for free that the companies would lose money.
Either they would travel and pay or not travel and capacity for them would not need to be provided.

Ok so waterford is usually served by one bus about 7 or 8 times a day, if there were no free pass holders there would be no need for many of these services so bus eireann would cut maybe 3-4 services meaning the paying passengers from those buses have to make alternative arrangements like going with JJ Kavanaghs or going by car, all this means a loss to cie/bus eireann. To suggest it will save money is misguided at best. They save by having less buses in service so less drivers and less on diesel and maintenance but they bring in far less in fares also.

the groutch

cdebru wrote: »

No it costs money to provide capacity for people travelling for free, it makes no sense to suggest if people were not travelling for free that the companies would lose money.
Either they would travel and pay or not travel and capacity for them would not need to be provided.

totally agree with this

for example the 59 Dublin Bus route, from when I've used it I'd say about 80% of users have free passes, so it's a guaranteed loss everytime it runs.

bring in a nominal fee for passholders, and then they either pay it and help stop the losses, or they don't and the user numbers become low enough to justify discontuing the route, simples.

foggy_lad

the groutch wrote: »

totally agree with this

for example the 59 Dublin Bus route, from when I've used it I'd say about 80% of users have free passes, so it's a guaranteed loss everytime it runs.

bring in a nominal fee for passholders, and then they either pay it and help stop the losses, or they don't and the user numbers become low enough to justify discontuing the route, simples.

It is very probable that the route would not be discontinued if there is a social need for it, but putting that to one side, instead of making at least some money from fares on a bus that is running anyway and providing jobs for drivers it is now ok to get rid of half the drivers in dublin bus and half the buses and have much less money coming in as fare paying passengers find more suitable alternatives.

n97 mini

^ That's kind of a Claire Daly argument.

One reason *not* to keep buses running is to keep drivers in jobs. DB is not a charity.

I pay my bus fare when I board the bus. I'm not too keen on paying other people's bus fares aswell via my taxes.

Qualitymark

Mikehaw wrote: »

It would be a good thing if the free loaders(free pass users passing their time, yet still whinging) stopped using the service. Then cie could evaluate what services make economical sense and cut / reduce those that do not.

At the moment a lot of services are kept running because their are bums(literally) on seats not paying fares

The 'freeloaders' are actually keeping the bus service running; this subvention is the major government funding for all transport services in Ireland.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

^ That's kind of a Claire Daly argument.

One reason *not* to keep buses running is to keep drivers in jobs. DB is not a charity.

I pay my bus fare when I board the bus. I'm not too keen on paying other people's bus fares aswell via my taxes.

You wouldn't have so many services if not for the taxpayers money which subsidises many routes.

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

You wouldn't have so many services if not for the taxpayers money which subsidises many routes.

I am one of those taxpayers!

the groutch

foggy_lad wrote: »

it is now ok to get rid of half the drivers in dublin bus and half the buses and have much less money coming in as fare paying passengers find more suitable alternatives.

I'm sure that is happening as is with the repeated fare increases to cover the cost of all these free travel passes, combined with pass users during peak times leading to potential fare payers using other forms of transport instead of watching buses go past full.

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

Ok so waterford is usually served by one bus about 7 or 8 times a day, if there were no free pass holders there would be no need for many of these services so bus eireann would cut maybe 3-4 services meaning the paying passengers from those buses have to make alternative arrangements like going with JJ Kavanaghs or going by car, all this means a loss to cie/bus eireann. To suggest it will save money is misguided at best. They save by having less buses in service so less drivers and less on diesel and maintenance but they bring in far less in fares also.

No if BE was actually able to collect the fares from all those who uswd the service it would either lower the cost to current fare payers or mean that less capacity was needed, it would also mean BE could compete with jjkavavanagh or anyone else on a more level playing field.
It is nonsense to suggest that people should be carried for a fee that nowhere near covers the cost of providing the service because it makes it look busy. Merely having passengers does not make the service sustainable if a large number of those passengers are travelling for free.

MrDerp

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Introduce a congestion charge for Dublin City center and pay some of the money towards current expenditure on buses (subvention) and provide continuous capital funding towards improving bus corridors and infrastructure (shelters, electronic timetables etc)

AlekSmart

the groutch wrote: »

I'm sure that is happening as is with the repeated fare increases to cover the cost of all these free travel passes, combined with pass users during peak times leading to potential fare payers using other forms of transport instead of watching buses go past full.

I see a blurring of the lines between the cost of administering the DSP Free Travel Scheme and the role of a Direct Government PSO Subvention administered by the NTA.

There are two different issues at play here,or at least,there should be.

Foggy's contention that Irish Public Transport would suddenly collapse if the Free Travel Scheme ended is an argueable one.

For sure,there would be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth from those,who,in the mould of former Asst Dublin City & County Manager,George Redmond,could be termed "heavy travellers".

However,nobody is suggesting the total abolition of the Free Travel Scheme,but rather the absolute necessity to rein it in and bring it back to something which can be realistically costed,administered and provided as a concession.

I would contend that reducing the numbers of individual entitlements by c.70% would be a good start,coupled with the abolition of automatic Spouse/Partner entitlement.

Companion Passes should remain in the current manner,with specific note being taken of the reason for their issuance....

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Appendix-1---Free-Travel-Companion-Pass.aspx

* You are aged 66 to 69 inclusive and are medically assessed as unfit to travel alone,
* You are aged 70 or over and are medically unfit to travel alone,
* You are getting full-time care and attention from someone who is getting Carer's Allowance from this Department,

* You are getting Disability Allowance or Invalidity Pension or Disablement Pension and Incapacity Supplement and are medically assessed as unfit to travel alone,

Either one is unfit to travel alone or one is not.

I would suggest that,given our country's size and population that a total figure of c.250,000 members of the Free Travel Scheme would appear realistic.

To fund this realistically,I would suggest the DSP could reduce it's current benchmark 2010 figure of c.€76 Million by c.25% which would see PT Operators then recieving a sum commensurate with actual cost of service provision.

The remainder of those dispossessed of their Free Travel "entitlement",would then be invited to apply for "Assisted Public Transport" provision on a somewhat more targeted basis.

50-75% reductions on Urban Public Transport,perhaps with Time Based restrictions for Jobseekers etc, within a Geographic Area,with a varying number of concessionary Mainline Rail journeys available on a sliding scale basis.

ALL Public Transport Concessionary documentation to be renewable annually,(5 Yearly for Pension Age Recipients) with a cost factor of c.€5-10 per card.

All of the above controls are now available at virtually no cost through the medium of contactless,Smart Card technology,however,the news that the DSP is even considering retaining the Smart Enabled Public Service Card in "Flash Pass" mode sickens me to the pit of my stomach,as it clearly demonstrates they have NO idea of the abilities of their new systems.

cdebru

n97 mini wrote: »

^ That's kind of a Claire Daly argument.

One reason *not* to keep buses running is to keep drivers in jobs. DB is not a charity.

I pay my bus fare when I board the bus. I'm not too keen on paying other people's bus fares aswell via my taxes.

You are actually paying other peoples fare with your fare, and that is only going to increase as the number of people with free travel increases but the funding for it remains static.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

I am one of those taxpayers!

So are most free travel recipients, Everyone pays taxes of some form.

the groutch wrote: »

I'm sure that is happening as is with the repeated fare increases to cover the cost of all these free travel passes, combined with pass users during peak times leading to potential fare payers using other forms of transport instead of watching buses go past full.

There will be no reductions in fares if free travel is removed as the resulting reductions in passenger numbers and also in the money from Government the services would be drastically cut back and many more fare paying passengers will choose other forms of transport as well as private operators due to them being far more efficient than the Public service operators. More likely there would be further increases to cover heavier losses!

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

So are most free travel recipients, Everyone pays taxes of some form.



There will be no reductions in fares if free travel is removed as the resulting reductions in passenger numbers and also in the money from Government the services would be drastically cut back and many more fare paying passengers will choose other forms of transport as well as private operators due to them being far more efficient than the Public service operators. More likely there would be further increases to cover heavier losses!

Do you accept that the current contribution of 61 million euro does not cover the cost of providing the free travel scheme for 1.1million people?

If you accept that then how could a change to the free travel scheme make matters worse ?

CIE is carrying these people for far less than it costs so at the moment the free travel scheme is merely a millstone.
Yes less of them would travel if they had to pay but those travelling would actually be paying.

Besides most people are not talking about complete scrappage just a sustainable system in which at least the actual cost of the service is paid to the provider.

foggy_lad

cdebru wrote: »

Do you accept that the current contribution of 61 million euro does not cover the cost of providing the free travel scheme for 1.1million people?

If you accept that then how could a change to the free travel scheme make matters worse ?

CIE is carrying these people for far less than it costs so at the moment the free travel scheme is merely a millstone.
Yes less of them would travel if they had to pay but those travelling would actually be paying.

Besides most people are not talking about complete scrappage just a sustainable system in which at least the actual cost of the service is paid to the provider.

Considering that so many people's views of those on free travel are of "freeloaders" "scumbags" "Junkies" "medicated zombies" etc then I would have to say that these people will find ways to travel without paying if free travel is taken from them, this will increase fraud and some of this behaviour will "rub off" onto fare paying passengers who will take a chance on the Dart or Luas more often than they might currently do which will lead to even higher losses for the public service transport companies. remove the free travel and the states public transport operators will collapse starting with Irish Rails intercity services.

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

Considering that so many people's views of those on free travel are of "freeloaders" "scumbags" "Junkies" "medicated zombies" etc then I would have to say that these people will find ways to travel without paying if free travel is taken from them, this will increase fraud and some of this behaviour will "rub off" onto fare paying passengers who will take a chance on the Dart or Luas more often than they might currently do which will lead to even higher losses for the public service transport companies. remove the free travel and the states public transport operators will collapse starting with Irish Rails intercity services.

So your contention is what that these people will travel for free anyway ? So just let them travel for free?
You didnt answer my question what you posted makes no sense.
The economic cost of free travel is not being paid by the government. So how will an alteration to that scheme lead to a collapse in public transport?

If a train carries 100 people and 50 are full fare paying passengers and the other 50 are having 2% of the fare paid for them. Well removing that free travel if even 1 of that 50 buys a ticket the company is no worse off. If you give them reduced fare say 50% off only 2 out of the 50 travelling leaves you no worse off.
Yes the train only has 52 passengers so you need less carriages etc etc.

Explain how the system will collapse by not carrying people for free?

foggy_lad

cdebru wrote: »

So your contention is what that these people will travel for free anyway ? So just let them travel for free?
You didnt answer my question what you posted makes no sense.
The economic cost of free travel is not being paid by the government. So how will an alteration to that scheme lead to a collapse in public transport?

If a train carries 100 people and 50 are full fare paying passengers and the other 50 are having 2% of the fare paid for them. Well removing that free travel if even 1 of that 50 buys a ticket the company is no worse off. If you give them reduced fare say 50% off only 2 out of the 50 travelling leaves you no worse off.
Yes the train only has 52 passengers so you need less carriages etc etc.

Explain how the system will collapse by not carrying people for free?

There will be less passengers so fewer services as none of the operators will run half empty buses or trains especialy at peak times so less services means fewer fare paying passengers.

Also my contention is not that these people will travel free anyway but that most will not travel at all or will pay for much better service from private operators like with the excellent buses to cork and Galway meaning less demand for bus and rail services from the cie group meaning losses and cuts to services and jobs. Ending free travel will see cie, bus Éireann, dublin bus and Irish rail go to the wall.

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

There will be less passengers so fewer services as none of the operators will run half empty buses or trains especialy at peak times so less services means fewer fare paying passengers.
I
Also my contention is not that these people will travel free anyway but that most will not travel at all or will pay for much better service from private operators like with the excellent buses to cork and Galway meaning less demand for bus and rail services from the cie group meaning losses and cuts to services and jobs. Ending free travel will see cie, bus Éireann, dublin bus and Irish rail go to the wall.

I will try to be nice because that is the biggest load of nonsense i have read in a while.

Bums on seats are not the only criteria on which a service is based. Revenue is a massive factor. Filling a bus or train with non paying customers is the road to oblivion.

So your contention is that CIE will cancel services that are half full even if half full is generating more revenue than the current model?

Now I have to admit I don't credit CIE management very highly but even I would say that CIE management can work out that a bus or train half full of paying passengers is better than a bus or train full of non paying passengers.

Also you have freed up capacity for more fare paying passengers and the possibility of raising more revenue.

Also unfortunate as it may be and as politically incorrect but it would be no harm at all if some of the less desirables who currently have free travel made less journeys. It would actually make public transport at little more appealing to most people.

foggy_lad

cdebru wrote: »

I will try to be nice because that is the biggest load of nonsense i have read in a while.

Bums on seats are not the only criteria on which a service is based. Revenue is a massive factor. Filling a bus or train with non paying customers is the road to oblivion.

So your contention is that CIE will cancel services that are half full even if half full is generating more revenue than the current model?

Now I have to admit I don't credit CIE management very highly but even I would say that CIE management can work out that a bus or train half full of paying passengers is better than a bus or train full of non paying passengers.

Also you have freed up capacity for more fare paying passengers and the possibility of raising more revenue.

Also unfortunate as it may be and as politically incorrect but it would be no harm at all if some of the less desirables who currently have free travel made less journeys. It would actually make public transport at little more appealing to most people.

Services are half full currently but remove the free travel element and many services will be curtailed leading to job losses as well as paying passengers from curtailed services moving to alternatives. I won't bother repeating this as if you don't get it by now there is no point explaining further.

ezra_pound

foggy_lad wrote: »

There will be less passengers so fewer services as none of the operators will run half empty buses or trains especialy at peak times so less services means fewer fare paying passengers.

Also my contention is not that these people will travel free anyway but that most will not travel at all or will pay for much better service from private operators like with the excellent buses to cork and Galway meaning less demand for bus and rail services from the cie group meaning losses and cuts to services and jobs. Ending free travel will see cie, bus Éireann, dublin bus and Irish rail go to the wall.

Genius! You must have gone to London school of economics same time as Bertie. Maybe cie should increase free travel to everyone earning under 100,000 pa. That would probably sort out all the problems. No need for cuts, strikes etc. I am in favour of a scheme for pensioners and the disabled but your argument is just ridiculous.

It is also reasonable to expect people to party at least a third of the normal price minimum.

Richard Logue

cdebru wrote: »

You are actually paying other peoples fare with your fare, and that is only going to increase as the number of people with free travel increases but the funding for it remains static.

At this stage there's no doubt that the free travel pass system as it stands is totally unfit for purpose and should be scrapped. CIE as a whole either needs to get the equivalent actual revenue from the government for all free travel journeys or the entitlement levels should be reviewed, possibly means tested.

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

So are most free travel recipients, Everyone pays taxes of some form.

But not everyone earns. Paying VAT on purchases made using Social Welfare doesn't really count, for example.

hfallada

I have yet to hear of other country in Europe giving OAPs free travel. In most European countries they get fare for half price like students and even in Germany trains are free for under 14s. I find it ridiculous when people give out students getting a like 25-30% of ticket prices. Where as anywhere else in Europe it would be half price.

I think some of the unprofitable trains services should be abolished if there is suitable bus arrangements. Ireland has some unhealthy obsession with trains. Which would be understandable if the journey was over 5/6 hours. But 3 hours on a bus is very manageable.Sure the eastern europeans and Dutch takes buses from their own country to Ireland all the time.

Infini

Actually its the other way around hfallada Ireland has an unhealthy obsession with ROADS rather than trains. Exception might be the Western Rail Corridor which was a complete waste and shouldve been routed better along a new alignment through major towns with fewer turns and stops. When one thinks about it rail was gutted too much in the past as several routes might've still been usable today and might generate decent cash like if the M3 spur had still run all the way to Navan and other major population areas and not middle of nowhere places.

As for the whole free travel scheme its needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Possible ways of fixing the system
1) Only OAP's get free travel at the maximum. Rest have to pay or at least pay a reduced price of 50%
or
2) Free travels abolished outright. Replaced with concession fares system limited to OAPs and those with limited mobility.
3) Passes have to be updated yearly and be colour coded for the year therye issued.
4) Unemployed dont get free travel end of story.
5) Passes only usable by their owners. No ability to add additional people they must have their own pass.

Richard Logue

hfallada wrote: »

I have yet to hear of other country in Europe giving OAPs free travel. In most European countries they get fare for half price like students and even in Germany trains are free for under 14s. I find it ridiculous when people give out students getting a like 25-30% of ticket prices. Where as anywhere else in Europe it would be half price.

I think some of the unprofitable trains services should be abolished if there is suitable bus arrangements. Ireland has some unhealthy obsession with trains. Which would be understandable if the journey was over 5/6 hours. But 3 hours on a bus is very manageable.Sure the eastern europeans and Dutch takes buses from their own country to Ireland all the time.

I was agreeing with you up to the point where you started to make bizarre claims about rail. Ask those Dutch people how they travel inside Holland, chances are they'll do so by rail.

_Kaiser_

MrDerp wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Introduce a congestion charge for Dublin City center and pay some of the money towards current expenditure on buses (subvention) and provide continuous capital funding towards improving bus corridors and infrastructure (shelters, electronic timetables etc)

All that'll do is push more people to the suburban shopping centres. This isn't London with its millions of people and there are lots of alternatives within what? 15/20 miles of the city centre?

Take myself as an example. I can't remember the last time I was in town to be honest. I do all my shopping online or locally and so the only reason I'd have to venture into the city really is for social purposes .. but even then that's curtailed partly because of the high cost of a night out, partly because of the fact that most of my friends have moved to the aforementioned suburbs (or a lot further in most cases!) and settled down, partly because I'm just getting old and can't handle the mad nights out anymore

Introduce a congestion charge and coupled with increased public transport costs, watch the city centre become deserted of (paying) customers/consumers.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Services are half full currently but remove the free travel element and many services will be curtailed leading to job losses as well as paying passengers from curtailed services moving to alternatives. I won't bother repeating this as if you don't get it by now there is no point explaining further.

Sorry Foggy but I'm with a lot of the others on this one.

As already pointed out, DB/CIE isn't a job creation scheme (or at least, it's not supposed to be.. although I will grant you that on some days it may seem like that), nor is it a charity service.

Running buses to primarily benefit non-paying passengers doesn't make any sense, financially or otherwise - not least because it encourages certain people to make no effort to do anything about their situation or actively abuse their "entitlement"

You could also make the case that reducing the ability of certain elements to travel for free would in fact improve the quality of the service for the rest, not to mention end/reduce the problems seen on the Red Line LUAS and certain city centre streets for example.

The only people who should be entitled to "free" travel (because it's not actually free - someone is paying for it after all) are the aged (with a means test), or the (genuinely) disabled. I'm not sure I'd make everyone pay something, as there are many people in this category who genuinely struggle on the pittance they get, but certainly those that abuse it should be disincentivised. You could even create a few jobs out of it by putting on more inspectors to enforce the changed (long overdue) reality.

Of course in our "modern" sharing caring touchy-feely PC world it's not "right" to say such things but then I've never been very PC anyway. I spent a lot of years living in one of our "disadvantaged" areas and watching for myself how the system was abused.

Ultimately the bottom line is that CIE needs to focus more on keeping and attracting more paying customers - not accommodating those who aren't to the point where the policy actively drives the former away.

Keep that up and you WILL see the cuts and job losses you talk about.

AlekSmart

cdebru wrote: »

You are actually paying other peoples fare with your fare, and that is only going to increase as the number of people with free travel increases but the funding for it remains static.

It is interesting to note how the CIE group was having "Significant Concerns" regarding the operation of the Free Travel Schemes as far back as 1998.

http://www.tcd.ie/policy-institute/assets/pdf/BP5_Quinn_Free_Schemes.pdf

Section 3. Page 56

EG:

CIE is of the opinion that the spirit of the Companion Pass is not being honoured in all cases

CIE's bind in all of this has been the traditional high level of Politicial Expedience attached to what otherwise would be commercially focused decisions.

Whilst the shareholder loudly calls for "Commerciality" in public,as soon as the Company responds to this (and it does !!),the off-the-record contacts are made to "Clarify" or "Expand Upon" what was originally said.

In short,it's a managers nightmare,far worse than anything a losing-streak Premiership Manager would face.

For example,the Seamus Brennan led peak-time restriction abolition would have had a far greater degree of inspection and consideration applied to it than occured with CIE,had it been Stagecoach or FirstGroup providing the services.

However the ability of a Minister of the Day to force through any changes deemed Politically expedient by way of S.I. or similar,renders any management opposition irrelevant,except perhaps to the relevant Managers future career prospects.

Earlier in the thread,cdebru also raised a point worth debating

Also unfortunate as it may be and as politically incorrect but it would be no harm at all if some of the less desirables who currently have free travel made less journeys. It would actually make public transport at little more appealing to most people.

Within the past week I have had conversations with people who mentioned taking Rail Journeys which left a negative impression,not because of any failure of Irish Rail,as the actual Trains,facilities and Journeys were deemed excellent.....the issues,on two seperate journeys were with racous and drunken individuals loudly declaiming to the rest of the train that they could not be ejected due to their Free Pass....:rolleyes:.

A similar "Think" exists throughout the DB system as is evidenced by the reactions of persons asked for a closer inspection their Free Pass,as they rush past to get upstairs.

I actually do believe that "Quality" in any service,will create a desirability and will lead to more discretionary purchasing of that service.

This is where myself and Foggy_Lad differ I'm afraid,as I consider the risk of total collapse worth taking,because I'm confident that such an event will not occur IF a substantially reduced and appropriately supervised Free Travel Scheme is immediately introduced.

I'm now of the opinion that the DSP Free Travel Scheme is now the greatest impediment to putting,not alone the CIE group,but Irish Public Transport as a whole,on a sound sustainable footing.

However,it's my belief that substantial questions will arise as the historical operation of the Free Travel Scheme come under scrutiny.

One aspect,for example,continually avoided is what the level of "Passes returned subsequent to Death of Passholder" is at.

The only figures,again from the 2000 Quinn Report,relate to 1997/8 when 17,000 Pension Age persons died,yet no figures are given for Documents Returned to the Department.

This is but one more area where total non-enforcement of the few regulations has led to a collapsed system.

Foggy,continually berates front-line CIE Staff for their perceived lack-of-enthusiasm in checking Free Travel Documentation,as if that were the answer to the scheme's ill's.

However I suspect he does'nt fully appreciate the "Finger in the Dyke" reality of day to day Irish PT operation.

Gotta go now,as I have a shift of pass checking to carry out...."Good afternoon Sir/Madam,may I see your Pass please ?"....:D

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

This is where myself and Foggy_Lad differ I'm afraid,as I consider the risk of total collapse worth taking,because I'm confident that such an event will not occur IF a substantially reduced and appropriately supervised Free Travel Scheme is immediately introduced.

Is that not just another public service transport employee thinking that the government would never let Irish Rail, Dublin bus and Bus Eireann collapse?

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is that not just another public service transport employee thinking that the government would never let Irish Rail, Dublin bus and Bus Eireann collapse?

No it is someone I suspect that believes that the entire CIE group is at risk of collapse if the unsustainability of the current free travel scheme is not addressed.

Owryan

How much does BE or IE get per head to cover free travel ?

For example, in my case I use the train twice a week to travel to kilkenny for attending st lukes. Thats 2x€9.80 (i think) so quick maths, 2 trips a week by at a quess the 26 weeks I ll be needing treatment so €509.60. Say €450 as there could be some weeks where I wont travel or can get a lift . Do IE even come close to be reimbursed that amount ?

If all free travel was abolished and a new scheme with free and reduced rates for qualified people was introduced I cant see how and public transport providers could worsen their losses.

dowlingm

Owryan wrote: »

How much does BE or IE get per head to cover free travel ?

It's a block grant. The notion is that the heavy users are compensated by people who will only use it occasionally. Of course the latter category is mostly people who live where public transport is not, which is why provision of free transport is actually one of the few ways urban dwellers are not screwed by the overrepresentation of rural interests in the Oireachtas

cdebru

Owryan wrote: »

How much does BE or IE get per head to cover free travel ?

For example, in my case I use the train twice a week to travel to kilkenny for attending st lukes. Thats 2x€9.80 (i think) so quick maths, 2 trips a week by at a quess the 26 weeks I ll be needing treatment so €509.60. Say €450 as there could be some weeks where I wont travel or can get a lift . Do IE even come close to be reimbursed that amount ?

If all free travel was abolished and a new scheme with free and reduced rates for qualified people was introduced I cant see how and public transport providers could worsen their losses.

1.1 million people entitled to free travel CIE gets €61 million a year for the free travel scheme. That works out at about €60 a year divide between the 3 companies so IE gets about 25 euro for the year.


So in your example IE is losing out on about €425.

BTW in your case that is 100% genuine use of the free travel scheme, I think you should have free travel if you have to attend hospital like that, and I wish you all the best with it.

It is just that the free travel scheme is out of control and not properly funded.

And lastly only in the foggy lad school of economics does changing free travel make you lose more money. It would only be possible if the 1.1 million people currently entitled as well as the thousands using fake/forged free travel all completely stopped using CIE and the government cut off the 61 million and there were no savings from the freed up capacity.

carpejugulum

foggy_lad wrote: »

the resulting drop in passengers will mean cuts in services across all state public transport services

That's what we hope for. Not only is it a huge financial drain, it's also an unacceptable environmental drain.

foggy_lad

cdebru wrote: »

1.1 million people entitled to free travel CIE gets €61 million a year for the free travel scheme. That works out at about €60 a year divide between the 3 companies so IE gets about 25 euro for the year.


So in your example IE is losing out on about €425.

BTW in your case that is 100% genuine use of the free travel scheme, I think you should have free travel if you have to attend hospital like that, and I wish you all the best with it.

It is just that the free travel scheme is out of control and not properly funded.

And lastly only in the foggy lad school of economics does changing free travel make you lose more money. It would only be possible if the 1.1 million people currently entitled as well as the thousands using fake/forged free travel all completely stopped using CIE and the government cut off the 61 million and there were no savings from the freed up capacity.

Do you actually think that the government will continue their €61million contribution to free travel if a fee or charge is brought into the equation?

I have explained already what will no doubt happen and the first is passenger numbers plummet on all transport but rail will be particularly badly hit,

then subsidies will be cut because of the lower passenger numbers and services will have to be cut with a machete leading to massive job losses.

the next thing is that more paying passengers will move to other operators or to private cars because services they used to use have been cut or changed so that they no longer suit,

this will lead to more losses even taking into account the savings in wages and diesel and maintenance.

There will also be massive redundancy costs and probably strikes as unions refuse to accept the new redundancy rates that the real world must endure.

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

Do you actually think that the government will continue their €61million contribution to free travel if a fee or charge is brought into the equation?

Actually they might well do. In most other European countries, the government (or local government) directly subsidises public transport, rather then the indirect subsidy the Irish government give via the free travel scheme.

I believe this ends up being a much more effective subsidy model as it leaves it up to the transport companies on how to spend the subsidy. Usually this means they give 50% fares to OAPs while using the rest of the money to spread across all adult users to keep ticket prices down.

On the whole I believe this is a more beneficial model then what we have in Ireland. The Irish model of given free travel to so many, but not adequately funding it means standard adult ticket prices are high to make up the difference, but this has the effect of driving working people to their cars instead as it is just as cheap, thus public transport gets caught in a vicious cycle of losing customers and rising ticket prices.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is that not just another public service transport employee thinking that the government would never let Irish Rail, Dublin bus and Bus Eireann collapse?

Apart from the fact that I'm not part of the Public Service,as your hypothesis requires to be accurate,I have no difficulty in agreeing that a level of risk attaches to the adaption of my viewpoint.

Again,I'll restate my view that you are misreading the current perilous state of the Free Travel Scheme in it's entirity,by basing your predictions on what is effectively a minority of scheme members.

I feel that you overstate the importance of the Free Travel Scheme in todays Ireland by a significant degree,as you do not take into account the far higher levels of reckonable and disposable income today over and above what existed in the Ireland of 1967.

In addition the far reaching nature of our various DSP support payments is of a magnitude undreamed of in 1967.
For example in 2011 the DSP paid out a total of €1,997,000 for Prams/Buggies and Cots under a heading of "Exceptional Needs",in addition to €2,196,000 for "Travel Costs" under the same general heading.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/2011stats.pdf

Page 65 Table C.17.

The times,they have a-changed,therefore insisting that a scheme still operating with 40 year old disbursement data can somehow be even relevant to modern Irelands needs is beyond my ken.

I have no problem conceeding (if thats what you require) that the abolition and re-launch of a Fit-For-Purpose Concessionary Travel Scheme would bring substantial and far reaching changes in Public Transport Provision in Ireland.

However where you see dereliction and tumbleweed,I see new opportunities for both State and Private Sector to offer new,innovative and popular services,once the providers are released from the dead-hand approach of having to regard the DSP as the agency dictating the actual levels of service.

You can cry Anecdotal if you wish,but my daily experience is of substantial numbers of DSP customers with enough disposable income to fund Mobile Devices,Alcohol,Tobacco,Jewellery and Clothing purchases whilst being deemed "unable to fund their Public Transport requirements".

What I do see resulting from a revised Concessionary Travel Scheme is a large number of DSP Customers being asked to revise their priorities in relation to spending their income.

In some cases these people will decide that public transport is not worth paying for at any level,however I feel that with companies thus freed up to realign fare structures in addition to a Concessionary Travel discount this would bring,in time,a stabilized and sustainable system for everybody.

Jamie2k9

You can cry Anecdotal if you wish,but my daily experience is of substantial numbers of DSP customers with enough disposable income to fund Mobile Devices,Alcohol,Tobacco,Jewellery and Clothing purchases whilst being deemed "unable to fund their Public Transport requirements".

I couldn't of put that any better.

suicide_circus

the amount of people with free travel passes is insane.i actually dont see a logical argument for ANYONE to get completely free public transport. its unsustainable and unnecessary.

suicide_circus

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I couldn't of put that any better.

+1
it is the states responsibility to provide food, water, shelter and education - not free transport on top of the already ludicrous €180 per week free cash.

carpejugulum

bk wrote: »

On the whole I believe this is a more beneficial model then what we have in Ireland. The Irish model of given free travel to so many, but not adequately funding it means standard adult ticket prices are high to make up the difference, but this has the effect of driving working people to their cars instead as it is just as cheap, thus public transport gets caught in a vicious cycle of losing customers and rising ticket prices.

It's the same model used in healthcare. The government gives out medical cards but the subsidy doesn't cover the cost.
So the private patient has to cover the subsidy and also the increased healthcare cost to subsidize medical cards again.