O'Gara poised to join Sexton at Racing Metro

sydthebeat

Rightwing wrote: »

But on the other hand, if you give tax breaks to the ordinary citizen, (instead of taxing them to the hilt) it will generate a massive multiplier effect across the economy as a whole. I would even hazard a guess that more people would be going to rugby matches!

but anyway, the multiplier effect works opposite in recessionary times as people tend to hold onto disposable income a lot more. Which means less tax income equates to less governmental spending on public wages equates to less liquidity in the economy

rrpc

I've read through all this stuff about the tax rebate and not one person has actually given the real reason for setting it up.

It was done to provide professional sportspeople with a 'soft landing' after they retired. Given that most sportspeople stop participating (and earning) before the age of 40, the sudden loss of income without any prospect of a job outside sport (even graduates would have absolutely no work experience) can be catastrophic.

Yes there are high profile guys who'll earn a decent living from punditry, but they are in the vast minority. Switching immediately to coaching a la ROG is also extremely rare, Bernard Jackman spent a few years in the AIL before heading to Grenoble.

It's fair and it's right and yes other peripheral arguments can be made for it too.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

I've read through all this stuff about the tax rebate and not one person has actually given the real reason for setting it up.

It was done to provide professional sportspeople with a 'soft landing' after they retired. Given that most sportspeople stop participating (and earning) before the age of 40, the sudden loss of income without any prospect of a job outside sport (even graduates would have absolutely no work experience) can be catastrophic.

Yes there are high profile guys who'll earn a decent living from punditry, but they are in the vast minority. Switching immediately to coaching a la ROG is also extremely rare, Bernard Jackman spent a few years in the AIL before heading to Grenoble.

It's fair and it's right and yes other peripheral arguments can be made for it too.

That's not the reason it was introduced at all. But it is another positive factor of it, absolutely.

who_me

sydthebeat wrote: »

jesus lads, from ROG to macro economics?????

Back in my day... when we starting a topic, we stayed on topic until the sun went down and the cows came home; or else it was a padding!

Lelantos

who_me wrote: »

Back in my day... when we starting a topic, we stayed on topic until the sun went down and the cows came home; or else it was a padding!

Getting the word "paddling" wrong......

That's a paddling!!

jm08

sydthebeat wrote: »

jesus lads, from ROG to macro economics?????

ROG has a Masters in Business Economics

(He has a BA is in Economics & Psychology - the psychology could come in very handy for a coach).

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's not the reason it was introduced at all. But it is another positive factor of it, absolutely.

If I said it was daylight outside, you'd contradict me IBF, it's starting to look like you're stalking me :eek:

Minister McCreevy said the measures have been introduced as a reward for the contribution our sports stars make, as an acknowledgement for their relatively short careers and as encouragement for them to stay in Ireland.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

If I said it was daylight outside, you'd contradict me IBF, it's starting to look like you're stalking me :eek:

Well as long as you keep getting things wrong I'll be happy to correct you!

It's not why they were brought in. As I said it's another positive to the rebate, but it was brought in after a period of lots of Irish internationals playing abroad. And it did help to change things.

You said we nobody mentioned the real reason. I'm afraid keeping them in Ireland was one of the main reasons (actually THE main reason... Charlie was my TD!)... as your quote says!

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well as long as you keep getting things wrong I'll be happy to correct you!

It's not why they were brought in. As I said it's another positive to the rebate, but it was brought in after a period of lots of Irish internationals playing abroad. And it did help to change things.

You said we nobody mentioned the real reason. I'm afraid keeping them in Ireland was one of the main reasons (actually THE main reason... Charlie was my TD!)... as your quote says!

Yep stalking...

Three reasons given and the last one is the one you're saying was the main one. Please name all those internationals playing abroad and don't start with Roy Keane please

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

Yep stalking...

Three reasons given and the last one is the one you're saying was the main one. Please name all those internationals playing abroad and don't start with Roy Keane please

Seriously? Keith Wood, Paul Wallace, Kevin Maggs, Conor O'Shea etc. Pretty much anyone who played for Ireland in the 90s!

Rightwing

rrpc wrote: »

If I said it was daylight outside, you'd contradict me IBF, it's starting to look like you're stalking me :eek:

I wonder what was McCreevy's excuse for giving the horsing industry the grants and breaks? JP & Magnier needs a few quid?

Benny Cake

Rightwing wrote: »

I wonder what was McCreevy's excuse for giving the horsing industry the grants and breaks? JP & Magnier needs a few quid?

Ah here, give us a break mate....

Politics forum that way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

.ak

Okay, I've let this go on in the hope it'd come full circle. It hasn't. Stick to the topic people. The finer points of tax rebates isn't the topic btw.

19543261

(Perhaps if we neatly envelope our off-topic discussion within brackets; like so.)

A rugby ball.

iroced

Well well well I'm off 10 days and this comes out !!!

A great news for top 14 anyway. Having ROG as a kicking coach is more than prestigious. Wisniewski is gonna work with 2 of the best 10 in Europe, he can only raise his game!

Oh and maybe the whole Sexton/ROG "war" was just a fans/media bullsh*t ? I can't imagine Lorenzetti signing the 2 of them if a tenth of what I read about them is half-true...

who_me

Lelantos wrote: »

Getting the word "paddling" wrong......

That's a paddling!!

Tox56

iroced wrote: »

Well well well I'm off 10 days and this comes out !!!

A great news for top 14 anyway. Having ROG as a kicking coach is more than prestigious. Wisniewski is gonna work with 2 of the best 10 in Europe, he can only raise his game!

Oh and maybe the whole Sexton/ROG "war" was just a fans/media bullsh*t ? I can't imagine Lorenzetti signing the 2 of them if a tenth of what I read about them is half-true...

They're good friends now, several players have come out and said that... BUT almost every player has qualified that by saying "after a rocky start" or something to that effect. Initially I don't think the fans/media were that far off the mark, seemed a fair bit of animosity, but that isn't an issue now. BOD said things cooled off when Sexton established himself as the clear first choice

CatFromHue

Tox56 wrote: »

BOD said things cooled off when Sexton established himself as the clear first choice

So only this season then! :D

(I'm joking but it is kinda true actually)

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

So only this season then! :D

(I'm joking but it is kinda true actually)

Yeah but you know what he meant, Sexton went through a rocky patch with his kicking and was dropped but at the same time I would have described him as 'first choice'. That doesn't make sense reading it back but i presume that was what BOD was talking about

CatFromHue

Considering the move Sexton to 12 and bring on ROG at 10 was going on until this time last year it is actually only this season when Sexton has become the established first choice.

Ah sure BOD's only stirring it up, he didn't even expect to be playing next season !!

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

Considering the move Sexton to 12 and bring on ROG at 10 was going on until this time last year it is actually only this season when Sexton has become the established first choice.

Ah sure BOD's only stirring it up, he didn't even expect to be playing next season !!

Did Sexton start many/any games at 12 for Ireland? Can't really use that as evidence to suggest he wasn't first choice

CIARAN_BOYLE

Tox56 wrote: »

Did Sexton start many/any games at 12 for Ireland? Can't really use that as evidence to suggest he wasn't first choice

None, he moved there during the game on five or six occasions

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Seriously? Keith Wood, Paul Wallace, Kevin Maggs, Conor O'Shea etc. Pretty much anyone who played for Ireland in the 90s!

When there was practically no professional rugby in Ireland. Please try harder! :pac:

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

When there was practically no professional rugby in Ireland. Please try harder! :pac:

Luckilly the IRFU know what they're talking about on this one..

The decision taken by the IRFU in 1999, following a disastrous World Cup campaign, to invest heavily in keeping Ireland's best players at home rather than let them be lured to England, and to a lesser extent France, was the turning point for Irish Rugby.

...

The IRFU acknowledges the tax allowances made available by the State to Irish Professional Sports people domiciled in this country, whereby an athlete can reclaim 40% of the tax paid on his/her sporting income at the end of a 10 year period. This initiative has had a positive impact in assisting the IRFU retain players in this country.

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Luckilly the IRFU know what they're talking about on this one..

Nice selective quoting there . The amendment to the TCA was not until 2002 at which point pro rugby was well established here. Not the 90s.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

Nice selective quoting there . The amendment to the TCA was not until 2002 at which point pro rugby was well established here. Not the 90s.

Well they were hardly going to push through a tax rebate in a few hours.

It was the reason it was brought in. Certainly more so than giving rugby players a "soft landing" which could be better achieved in other ways. And it was very successful so fair play to the IRFU and McCreevy and whoever else orchestrated it.

EDIT: And there's nothing selective about that quoting, they follow each other on the page but nothing else is really related to the rebates. It's funny how when talking about the professional game and keeping professional players in Ireland the very first point they made was thanking the government for the rebates!

CatFromHue

Tox56 wrote: »

Did Sexton start many/any games at 12 for Ireland? Can't really use that as evidence to suggest he wasn't first choice

No but equally you didn't see BOD, Kearney, Heaslip, or POC being moved to a different position that they don't play in so someone else could come on and play in their position even though they weren't injured. Either D'arcy came off or ROG came on for Sexton himself.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

No but equally you didn't see BOD, Kearney, Heaslip, or POC being moved to a different position that they don't play in so someone else could come on and play in their position even though they weren't injured. Either D'arcy came off or ROG came on for Sexton himself.

I think you're right in that you couldn't call Sexton the definite first choice until... probably the New Zealand tour?

Before then it would not have been surprising at all to see ROG starting. It was madness!

CatFromHue

ROG came on in all three tests against NZ for Sexton, D'arcy, and then Wallace in the last one.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

ROG came on in all three tests against NZ for Sexton, D'arcy, and then Wallace in the last one.

Yeah but I don't think there was any doubt Sexton would start all of them.

At the very least... When they brought out Wallace to start at 12 rather than Sexton I'd imagine the point was hammered home to ROG.

CatFromHue

I dunno they still brought on ROG for Wallace.

Sexton was ahead of ROG but established first choice I'm not so sure on.

Neil3030

Travelling back from a conference in Northern Italy and the train stopped at a town where I think Sexton should have looked for a club!

phog

ROG was interviewed by Newstalk today about his mobpve to Racing, he said he had a few French clubs offering tasty deals for him to go and play with them, he said he wanted to finish his playing career with Munster. A one club man.

He was asked about playing fairy Racing if required and he said when he accepted the offer to coach Racing but before it was announced he contacted Sexton to let him know, Sexton's response was one of wtf, now when I go to play internationals I'll have you stepping into my boots at Racing, ROG put himout of his misery and told him he was there as a coach only.

As always, it was an open and honest interview, worth a listen.

Micky Dolenz

Any link to it?

Will be disappointing to those who thought Sexton had a say in back room staff selection at his new club.

phog

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Any link to it?

Will be disappointing to those who thought Sexton had a say in back room staff selection at his new club.

Try OTB as they usually do podcasts.

Never thought about that, some here suggested Sexton would have been consulted, maybe he was but listening to ROG then that's probably unlikely.

phog

Here's a link to the Journal, seems like a similar interview http://thescore.thejournal.ie/ronan-ogara-munster-retirement-racing-957815-Jun2013/

athtrasna

phog wrote: »

ROG was interviewed by Newstalk today about his mobpve to Racing, he said he had a few French clubs offering tasty deals for him to go and play with them, he said he wanted to finish his playing career with Munster. A one club man.

He was asked about playing fairy Racing if required and he said when he accepted the offer to coach Racing but before it was announced he contacted Sexton to let him know, Sexton's response was one of wtf, now when I go to play internationals I'll have you stepping into my boots at Racing, ROG put himout of his misery and told him he was there as a coach only.

As always, it was an open and honest interview, worth a listen.

Did they put it to him that it was the tax rebate that made the difference between him refusing to play in France or not? Didn't hear the interview (It was on George Hook I think?) but the articles I saw on it all said wanted to finish at Munster and didn't mention the massive rebate he gets because of that? I'm a Munster fan and think ROG is a legend, but think it's ultimately a money decision. The guy loves rugby, there's only one reason he's hung his boots up.

Micky Dolenz

athtrasna wrote: »

Did they put it to him that it was the tax rebate that made the difference between him refusing to play in France or not? Didn't hear the interview (It was on George Hook I think?) but the articles I saw on it all said wanted to finish at Munster and didn't mention the massive rebate he gets because of that? I'm a Munster fan and think ROG is a legend, but think it's ultimately a money decision. The guy loves rugby, there's only one reason he's hung his boots up.

He could have played another year at Munster as a contract was on the table. At 36, you can't hold it against him that he retired.

If he retired next season, all those coaching jobs would still be there.

Not getting your point.

jm08

athtrasna wrote: »

Did they put it to him that it was the tax rebate that made the difference between him refusing to play in France or not? Didn't hear the interview (It was on George Hook I think?) but the articles I saw on it all said wanted to finish at Munster and didn't mention the massive rebate he gets because of that? I'm a Munster fan and think ROG is a legend, but think it's ultimately a money decision. The guy loves rugby, there's only one reason he's hung his boots up.

ROG had an offer from Munster to play for another season - if he wanted to continue playing he could have stayed and got his tax rebate.

Strings didn't seem to be too worried about his tax rebate.

athtrasna

jm08 wrote: »

ROG had an offer from Munster to play for another season - if he wanted to continue playing he could have stayed and got his tax rebate.

Strings didn't seem to be too worried about his tax rebate.

I reckon Strings will go to Connacht next season...he only has a one year contract at Bath and still looks in flying form and hasn't suffered any major injuries in his career.

ROG's tax rebate should be pushing €1,000,000 - a lot of money to go out (at the top after the HCup) with. Another season, watching the young guns take over may have been too much to ask.

phog

athtrasna wrote: »

Did they put it to him that it was the tax rebate that made the difference between him refusing to play in France or not? Didn't hear the interview (It was on George Hook I think?) but the articles I saw on it all said wanted to finish at Munster and didn't mention the massive rebate he gets because of that? I'm a Munster fan and think ROG is a legend, but think it's ultimately a money decision. The guy loves rugby, there's only one reason he's hung his boots up.

It was on OTB and no he wasn't asked about the tax rebate. Tbh, it may very well have been a factor in his decision but I get the feeling that ROG wanted to finish his playing career with Munster. Finishing playing and then getting a coaching role in a top club in France is the icing on the cake for him.

Heroditas

The interview with Hook wasn't very good.
Hook sounded and acted like a star-struck giggling teenager.
"Can you speak French, g'wan give us a few sentences, g'wan..."
You'd swear he was the first Irishman to ever emigrate.

EDIT: to be fair to Rodge, he sounded bored about halfway through and was getting tired of Hook's guff.

Foxtrol

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

He could have played another year at Munster as a contract was on the table. At 36, you can't hold it against him that he retired.

If he retired next season, all those coaching jobs would still be there.

Not getting your point.

Well he'd probably have been offered far more money to play for Racing next year over Munster but to get the tax break it would mean he'd have to play on for two more seasons, as he'd have to play another back in Ireland & possibly run the risk of getting a serious injury or not being wanted by a province the following year.

I'd say the tax break definitely played a role in him not taking a retirement holiday like Shane Williams has or a player coach role. I know Munster had a contract on the table but in my opinion I'd say he couldn't face fading into the background with Munster like he did with Ireland, he's too much of a competitor for that so I'm glad he went out of Munster on his own terms.

Micky Dolenz

Foxtrol wrote: »

Well he'd probably have been offered far more money to play for Racing next year over Munster but to get the tax break it would mean he'd have to play on for two more seasons, as he'd have to play another back in Ireland & possibly run the risk of getting a serious injury or not being wanted by a province the following year.

I'd say the tax break definitely played a role in him not taking a retirement holiday like Shane Williams has or a player coach role. I know Munster had a contract on the table but in my opinion I'd say he couldn't face fading into the background with Munster like he did with Ireland, he's too much of a competitor for that so I'm glad he went out of Munster on his own terms.

I too, am glad he went out on his own terms.

Can't be compared to Williams for many reasons. Not sure French clubs were looking for him as a coach but not sure.

The tax rebate in this case seems to have worked. A factor in keeping a great in Irish rugby wanting to be a "one club man". Hopefully it keeps current and future greats playing in Irish rugby.

jm08

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Not sure French clubs were looking for him as a coach but not sure.

Definately think Clermont offered him a contract as a player/coach (but coaching in their academy). Think it might have only been for a year as well. (They could really have done with someone like him).

Foxtrol

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I too, am glad he went out on his own terms.

Can't be compared to Williams for many reasons. Not sure French clubs were looking for him as a coach but not sure.

The tax rebate in this case seems to have worked. A factor in keeping a great in Irish rugby wanting to be a "one club man". Hopefully it keeps current and future greats playing in Irish rugby.

I didn't compare him to Williams, I stated that without the restriction of having to play another season in Ireland he could have gone on a last money making retirement season somewhere like Williams has but he didn't so there's no comparison.

I don't know how this can be claimed as an example of the tax rebate working as I doubt the intention of it was to block an aging player who was no longer playing near international level (4th or 5th choice in his position) from plying his trade abroad in the twilight of his career. An unintended consequence, and maybe a bonus for nostalgia junkies, but I'd rather it was restructured so that current stars are kept, not those on the wane.

Micky Dolenz

Foxtrol wrote: »

I didn't compare him to Williams, I stated that without the restriction of having to play another season in Ireland he could have gone on a last money making retirement season somewhere like Williams has but he didn't so there's no comparison.

I don't know how this can be claimed as an example of the tax rebate working as I doubt the intention of it was to block an aging player who was no longer playing near international level (4th or 5th choice in his position) from plying his trade abroad in the twilight of his career. An unintended consequence, and maybe a bonus for nostalgia junkies, but I'd rather it was restructured so that current stars are kept, not those on the wane.

I have no doubt it played a small part in keeping him in his height too. The larger keeping force was his loyalty to his community, as stated by the man himself. BOD and POC are other worthy examples. Could have plied their trade anywhere in the world but didn't/don't for similar reasons. Has to be respected imo.

thomond2006

athtrasna wrote: »

ROG's tax rebate should be pushing €1,000,000 - a lot of money to go out (at the top after the HCup) with. Another season, watching the young guns take over may have been too much to ask.

I doubt it's that high.

danthefan

phog wrote: »

He was asked about playing fairy Racing if required and he said when he accepted the offer to coach Racing but before it was announced he contacted Sexton to let him know, Sexton's response was one of wtf, now when I go to play internationals I'll have you stepping into my boots at Racing, ROG put himout of his misery and told him he was there as a coach only.

Emmm, that part was completely tongue in cheek.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

I doubt it's that high.

Wouldn't be near it. Say he earned an average of 300k for his best 10 years. Whatever tax he paid on €3m he would get 40% back. It would be about €500k I would think.