Waterford Politics MEGATHREAD

fuzzy dunlop

Cabaal wrote: »

So the people will have voted, but you still won't be happy with the outcome because its not the outcome you wanted?

So you just want the people to vote the way you want them to vote then?

Assuming people vote for FF/FG/Labour because their parent/grandparent has previously voted for them is foolish.

Its foolish to apply a "catch all" to voters for any political party. clearly some "may" vote for FG/FF etc because their parent did the same as some "may" vote for SF because they think voting for SF is a vote for hating english people.

I've met both types of voters, but I wouldn't in a million years apply such a viewpoint to a majority of them.

Don't get me wrong, so called "parish pump politics" does exist, but it exists for every single party. Whole familys also being heavily involved in politics also exists for all partys.

I doubt you met anyone who voted SF because they hate English people. Your straw man arguement is also clutching at straws. However voting patterns based on what parents have done in the past is well established. But that is not the point. I said Phil Hogan could fit as easily into FG as FF. This is true.There has been no difference between the two parties on policy history or ethical behaviour. If you believe the law and order party BS then God Love you. And I doubt you were worried about discrimination when Phil Hogan was sending out letters to his constituents to ensure them that there would be no travellers moving in. Your defence of parish pump politics is not exactly quaint.The fact it exists is no excuse. crime exists everywhere too and we don't accept that. FG stood on a platform to change this and like everything else they touched it turned to ****. Yes the country is in a worse state. When immigration increase in crime , nature of crime, continued and unfair austerity are factored in then the country is in a grotesque state.

Your fearmongering of SF on economic policy is not going to work. Unlike FG they learn lessons. There poor performance in presenting themselves on this issue was due to the fact that they emerged from a conflict in the north where that was the primary issue. This is no longer the case. FG has no record either on economics since they came to power. They are being rumbled. And unlike Enda no-one in SF is afraid to debate.

fuzzy dunlop

Cabaal wrote: »

Its been fun but I'm not wasting my time with this sort of nonsense ranting anymore, g'luck"

In other words you don't have a leg to stand on.....Quite the come down from your Tin Foil Accustations you used to rely on....

Hijpo

SAP is increasing the numbers it employs in Galway and Dublin by 260, while Ericsson is to create 120 jobs in Dublin and Athlone and Wipro is adding 100 new jobs in Shannon, Co Clare.

Waterford looses another 200 jobs and 900 people take 20% out of the local economy.

Its only 10 times worse in some parts of the country....

Sully

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

In other words you don't have a leg to stand on.....Quite the come down from your Tin Foil Accustations you used to rely on....

In other words, there is no debating with some people and it's best to agree to disagree.

The vast majority of people choose who they want to vote, not because it's who they normally vote for or who their parents voted for or out of sympathy. That's obvious when you see the changes at every election. Right across Europe they have seen an anti-austerity vote. FG/Lab got in, as they usually do during a recession, and look to be booted out and welcome back Fianna Fail as history repeats itself. We all know an Independent run government would be a recipe for disaster and party politics is the way the country will be run. You're pissed because people are voting in a large way that isn't the way you want it.

The French is a prime example of a country that voted in a Socialist agenda and completely ****ed it up even more.

space2ground1

Sully wrote: »

In other words, there is no debating with some people and it's best to agree to disagree.

The vast majority of people choose who they want to vote, not because it's who they normally vote for or who their parents voted for or out of sympathy. That's obvious when you see the changes at every election. Right across Europe they have seen an anti-austerity vote. FG/Lab got in, as they usually do during a recession, and look to be booted out and welcome back Fianna Fail as history repeats itself. We all know an Independent run government would be a recipe for disaster and party politics is the way the country will be run. You're pissed because people are voting in a large way that isn't the way you want it.

The French is a prime example of a country that voted in a Socialist agenda and completely ****ed it up even more.

There are people staring at their kids asleep tonight and their stomach is turning wondering how they'll pay the bills. They don't care what group political fans take their jollies from. Our problems are far bigger now than political argument. We have a gang of individuals in charge of the country who have looked after places other than ours. I'm not thinking of Fine F All tonight. I'm hoping for those people that they'll sleep tonight.

Tell those people looking at their kids how lucky they are that the independents arent in government.

fuzzy dunlop

Sully wrote: »

In other words, there is no debating with some people and it's best to agree to disagree.

The vast majority of people choose who they want to vote, not because it's who they normally vote for or who their parents voted for or out of sympathy. That's obvious when you see the changes at every election. Right across Europe they have seen an anti-austerity vote. FG/Lab got in, as they usually do during a recession, and look to be booted out and welcome back Fianna Fail as history repeats itself. We all know an Independent run government would be a recipe for disaster and party politics is the way the country will be run. You're pissed because people are voting in a large way that isn't the way you want it.

The French is a prime example of a country that voted in a Socialist agenda and completely ****ed it up even more.

No I am pissed because of people like you continuosly defending the indefensible and scaremongering about the big bad socialists. FG never sorted anything out. The period of time you are talking about it was FG who bankrupted the country almost under the Fitzgerald government. It was FF who made the cuts after FG in the period known as the tallaght strategy. There are types of voters. Those that are partizan who fill vote for "the party" no matter what (SOUND FAMILIAR?). It is obvious who they are on this site. Then there are the swing voters who are always the kingmakers and are actually the more astute political thinkers not subject to populism. They are the ones the government are losing in droves. They are the urban voters and they have turned their back on the government.

There are many things this government could have done to save money before they started taking medical cards of people. A more progressive tax policy for one. Making the regional authorities into councils and abolishing the county based system which was pitched almost 30 years ago.Making sure that their sugar daddies like Dennis O' Brien actually paid tax.But then again he who pays the piper calls the tune.But they chose not to do it. Instead they chose the weakest to take the brunt while Stubbs Gazzette O'Reilly's, "No pay cut or property tax for me"Hogan and Poison Dwarf Howlin continued with the parochialism like it was business as usual.

Sully

space2ground1 wrote: »

There are people staring at their kids asleep tonight and their stomach is turning wondering how they'll pay the bills. They don't care what group political fans take their jollies from. Our problems are far bigger now than political argument. We have a gang of individuals in charge of the country who have looked after places other than ours. I'm not thinking of Fine F All tonight. I'm hoping for those people that they'll sleep tonight.

Tell those people looking at their kids how lucky they are that the independents arent in government.

I'm not denying there are people out there struggling. We had that even during the boom, but it's worse now. No matter who was in government, people would be hit hard by this recession. The biggest mess to hit this government has been around health more than anything else. At the end of the day, the country is a lot better than it was three years ago. And you can't deny it.

The problem I personally have is how we went about the recovery and how people were hit. I also have a problem with how my city is continuing to struggle and I wonder will my nephews and nieces be able to continue growing up here, be educated here, and work here. I'm far from in denial, but I am also a realist. I really don't know, and nobody can answer me, what the government can do. Nobody, no party, no candidate has any answers.

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

No I am pissed because of people like you continuosly defending the indefensible and scaremongering about the big bad socialists. FG never sorted anything out. The period of time you are talking about it was FG who bankrupted the country almost under the Fitzgerald government. It was FF who made the cuts after FG in the period known as the tallaght strategy. There are types of voters. Those that are partizan who fill vote for "the party" no matter what (SOUND FAMILIAR?). It is obvious who they are on this site. Then there are the swing voters who are always the kingmakers and are actually the more astute political thinkers not subject to populism. They are the ones the government are losing in droves. They are the urban voters and they have turned their back on the government.

This is where I will agree to disagree. Neither of us can prove each other right or wrong, so we will end up going around in circles. I have zero interest in that type of debate.

There are many things this government could have done to save money before they started taking medical cards of people. A more progressive tax policy for one. Making the regional authorities into councils and abolishing the county based system which was pitched almost 30 years ago.Making sure that their sugar daddies like Dennis O' Brien actually paid tax.But then again he who pays the piper calls the tune.But they chose not to do it. Instead they chose the weakest to take the brunt while Stubbs Gazzette O'Reilly's, "No pay cut or property tax for me"Hogan and Poison Dwarf Howlin continued with the parochialism like it was business as usual.

The medical card issue was a mistake and wasn't done on purpose. But the length of time it took to stop it is what irritates me. It's stopped because nobody knows what's causing it.

As for taxing heavily the wealthy, often those who actually create the employment, has tried and failed in France.

space2ground1

Sully wrote: »

At the end of the day, the country is a lot better than it was three years ago. And you can't deny it.

My family's income is 40% of what it was 3 years ago.
That's the most arrogant statement I've read today.

fuzzy dunlop

Sully wrote: »

I'm not denying there are people out there struggling. We had that even during the boom, but it's worse now. No matter who was in government, people would be hit hard by this recession. The biggest mess to hit this government has been around health more than anything else. At the end of the day, the country is a lot better than it was three years ago. And you can't deny it..

Nonesense when immigration is factored in (highest level since the 50's)

and those on jobsbridge, FAS schemes etc the government have little to brasg about. Unemployment is rising and in case you haven't noticed it is being reported in Waterford at 20% which is nearly twice the national average and 25% higher than the national average at its peak

Sully wrote: »

The problem I personally have is how we went about the recovery and how people were hit. I also have a problem with how my city is continuing to struggle and I wonder will my nephews and nieces be able to continue growing up here, be educated here, and work here. I'm far from in denial, but I am also a realist. I really don't know, and nobody can answer me, what the government can do. Nobody, no party, no candidate has any answers.

I have just given you a start which could have been made. Also rationalisations could have been made but instead services were cut back in the wrong hospitals so they could be retained in the constituencies of certain ministers. Or indeed where they were not needed at all PCC's and Kilkenny.

Sully wrote: »

This is where I will agree to disagree. Neither of us can prove each other right or wrong, so we will end up going around in circles. I have zero interest in that type of debate
.

On the contrary what I said is documented histotical fact.

Sully wrote: »

The medical card issue was a mistake and wasn't done on purpose. But the length of time it took to stop it is what irritates me. It's stopped because nobody knows what's causing it.

Jesus Christ this beggars belief!

Sully wrote: »

As for taxing heavily the wealthy, often those who actually create the employment, has tried and failed in France.

Is that so? France again! It works pretty well in Holland, Germany, Sweden and Denmark.

mooseknunkle

Sully wrote: »

At the end of the day, the country is a lot better than it was three years ago. And you can't deny it.

Your loyalty to FG is to be commended Sully,no matter what they have done or will continue to do,you will defend them to your last breath.

One can only assume you are a young man with no kids to feed no mortgage to pay,no property tax to worry about, water chargers the list goes on,the country was bad 3 years ago its a lot worse now and how you can say that is beyond me.

Sully wrote: »

We all know an Independent run government would be a recipe for disaster and party politics is the way the country will be run.

When you say "we" you just mean FG right? how much worse can an independent run government be to whats in there now.

Waterford is at rock bottom now we cant sink any lower and its all down to FG/FF/LAB ,i dont know how anybody in this town can continue to support any of them.

7upfree

space2ground1 wrote: »

My family's income is 40% of what it was 3 years ago.
That's the most arrogant statement I've read today.

That is the reality. But the spin doctors and drones don't want to hear it.

Hijpo

7upfree wrote: »

That is the reality. But the spin doctors and drones don't want to hear it.

The government and IDA and there blind followers only want you to realise stark realities when it comes to excuses for extra taxes and wage cuts. Stark realities are ignored when it comes to people not having enough left to meet mortgage repayments or new taxes and charges in a seemingly 1st world country.

7upfree

Hijpo wrote: »

The government and IDA and there blind followers only want you to realise stark realities when it comes to excuses for extra taxes and wage cuts. Stark realities are ignored when it comes to people not having enough left to meet mortgage repayments or new taxes and charges in a seemingly 1st world country.

Correct. This is the mentality that we're dealing with:

http://www.independent.ie/business/small-business/austerity-here-to-stay-despite-voter-backlash-says-john-moran-30319640.html

7upfree

mooseknunkle wrote: »

Waterford is at rock bottom now we cant sink any lower and its all down to FG/FF/LAB ,i dont know how anybody in this town can continue to support any of them.

Unfortunately - and inexplicably - people still do. At least in the West of this County. Must be something in the water.

fricatus

Ciara Conway is going for the Labour party deputy leadership:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/four-horse-race-for-labour-deputy-leader-as-ciara-conway-announces-she-will-stand-30321954.html

KevIRL

fricatus wrote: »

Ciara Conway is going for the Labour party deputy leadership:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/four-horse-race-for-labour-deputy-leader-as-ciara-conway-announces-she-will-stand-30321954.html

Desperate play to try hold her seat in the next GE. No chance surely

Taxburden carrier

fricatus wrote: »

Ciara Conway is going for the Labour party deputy leadership:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/four-horse-race-for-labour-deputy-leader-as-ciara-conway-announces-she-will-stand-30321954.html

Coffin...nail..final.

Gael23

KevIRL wrote: »

Desperate play to try hold her seat in the next GE. No chance surely

That's possible. At least she has the sense to know she's finished at the next election.

wagtail99

ryanf1 wrote: »

That's possible. At least she has the sense to know she's finished at the next election.

I hope so, but I think there is a risk she might scrape back in unless one of the other big players run a female candidate.

fricatus

Apparently if she becomes deputy leader, she won't accept junior or senior ministerial office:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ciara-conway-will-not-accept-ministerial-office-if-elected-labour-deputy-leader-1.1817731

More reason to kick her out at the next election IMO. She is not elected to dedicate her time to re-shaping the Labour party; she is elected and paid to represent Waterford, and if she fails to accept the opportunity to benefit her constituency, then she is derelict in her duties.

Everyone knows that ministerial office is the only way your area gets its day in the sun. This is (unfortunately) how it is in Ireland. Much as we deserve a university for example, we'll probably only get it if the Minister for Education comes from here and pulls a shameless stunt. Then everyone in Dublin will complain about parish-pump politics, but we'll have our long-promised university.

I hate this system and would vote for any party that can change it. However it's the system that we're stuck with for now, and the second-best option for any politician in our constituency is to work within its constraints for the benefit of the people who elected them.

I predict she will be replaced by David Cullinane at the next election.

Gael23

wagtail99 wrote: »

I hope so, but I think there is a risk she might scrape back in unless one of the other big players run a female candidate.

We have gender quotas now so I think they will all have to have female candidates.

Taxburden carrier

ryanf1 wrote: »

We have gender quotas now so I think they will all have to have female candidates.

Might be a better Dail if we had gob****e quotas.

Black Suir

fricatus wrote: »

Apparently if she becomes deputy leader, she won't accept junior or senior ministerial office:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ciara-conway-will-not-accept-ministerial-office-if-elected-labour-deputy-leader-1.1817731

More reason to kick her out at the next election IMO. She is not elected to dedicate her time to re-shaping the Labour party; she is elected and paid to represent Waterford, and if she fails to accept the opportunity to benefit her constituency, then she is derelict in her duties.

Everyone knows that ministerial office is the only way your area gets its day in the sun. This is (unfortunately) how it is in Ireland. Much as we deserve a university for example, we'll probably only get it if the Minister for Education comes from here and pulls a shameless stunt. Then everyone in Dublin will complain about parish-pump politics, but we'll have our long-promised university.

I hate this system and would vote for any party that can change it. However it's the system that we're stuck with for now, and the second-best option for any politician in our constituency is to work within its constraints for the benefit of the people who elected them.

I predict she will be replaced by David Cullinane at the next election.

Which of the papers in the coming days will run with a storey something like this. "Labour TD for Waterford Ciara Conway has welcomed the news that she is to stand for the position of deputy leader of the Labour Party. Deputy Conway has also welcomed the news that if successful in winning the deputy leadership battle, she will not accept the position of a minister or junior mininster in the upcoming cabinet reshuffle"

Black Suir

Taxburden carrier wrote: »

Might be a better Dail if we had gob****e quotas.

Might have a better Dail if those sent to do a job did it in a fair manner, but turkeys will never vote for christmas.

sid wallace

fricatus wrote: »

Apparently if she becomes deputy leader, she won't accept junior or senior ministerial office:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ciara-conway-will-not-accept-ministerial-office-if-elected-labour-deputy-leader-1.1817731

More reason to kick her out at the next election IMO. She is not elected to dedicate her time to re-shaping the Labour party; she is elected and paid to represent Waterford, and if she fails to accept the opportunity to benefit her constituency, then she is derelict in her duties.

Everyone knows that ministerial office is the only way your area gets its day in the sun. This is (unfortunately) how it is in Ireland. Much as we deserve a university for example, we'll probably only get it if the Minister for Education comes from here and pulls a shameless stunt. Then everyone in Dublin will complain about parish-pump politics, but we'll have our long-promised university.

I hate this system and would vote for any party that can change it. However it's the system that we're stuck with for now, and the second-best option for any politician in our constituency is to work within its constraints for the benefit of the people who elected them.

I predict she will be replaced by David Cullinane at the next election.

Nail on the head. Waterford people consistently complain that they get nothing from central government and that Hogan and Howlin are pulling everything they can out of Waterford into their own constituencies and yet we consistently elect people who aren't fit for cabinet office (we've had three cabinet ministers in the history of the State). Now we've elected one who won't even take a ministry if she's offered it.

She should be run out of the county.

Black Suir

sid wallace wrote: »

Nail on the head. Waterford people consistently complain that they get nothing from central government and that Hogan and Howlin are pulling everything they can out of Waterford into their own constituencies and yet we consistently elect people who aren't fit for cabinet office (we've had three cabinet ministers in the history of the State). Now we've elected one who won't even take a ministry if she's offered it.

She should be run out of the county.

If she is not interested in listening to what the people are saying, ie. we need someone at the cabinet table, and if offered and she refuses, then she should resign her seat with imeadiate effect. What a pity Billy McCarthy is not on the Radio tomorrow to quiz her on what she had to say today. Eamon Keane formally of Newstalk is on in his place. I think he is too quiet for such a job. Maybe Billy can quiz her on Wednesday morning. I would allow her that bit more time to come up with more cock and bull answers that she usually gives.

fuzzy dunlop

sid wallace wrote: »

Nail on the head. Waterford people consistently complain that they get nothing from central government and that Hogan and Howlin are pulling everything they can out of Waterford into their own constituencies and yet we consistently elect people who aren't fit for cabinet office (we've had three cabinet ministers in the history of the State). Now we've elected one who won't even take a ministry if she's offered it.

She should be run out of the county.

To be fair if a donkey stood for election in 2011 they would have got in as long as they weren't FF. I always claimed we would be shafted by FG/Labour. I said they would shaft us over the VEC's and the council amalgamation before they did either. However cynical as I was/am about this government even I am staggered at the lengths they have gone to in undermining the City.

Gael23

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

To be fair if a donkey stood for election in 2011 they would have got in as long as they weren't FF. I always claimed we would be shafted by FG/Labour. I said they would shaft us over the VEC's and the council amalgamation before they did either. However cynical as I was/am about this government even I am staggered at the lengths they have gone to in undermining the City.

That is true about FF. But as an FG member I will say that up to a few months ago it made mo difference what party was in power because the programme FF signed us up for was in force and had to be followed.

space2ground1

ryanf1 wrote: »

That is true about FF. But as an FG member I will say that up to a few months ago it made mo difference what party was in power because the programme FF signed us up for was in force and had to be followed.

Was leaving Waterford fall part of the troica plan? It would seem to me that the recovery FG/Lab speak of seems to be happening in places closer to their hearts than Waterford. I don't buy that FG/Lab had nothing to do with Waterford's destruction. I've been in all 4 other cities quite a bit over the past year and there's no comparison. I keep hearing from the FG fans that B&L is a corporate decision for example. Luckily for Cork, Limerick, Dublin and Galway, Waterford hasn't an ar$3 in its govt investment pants to provide the backup for when such companies restructure or leave. There's 3 or 4 things that could have been easily done to help Waterford with modest investment. However each investment would take from the national cake. They haven't happened. They could have. They didn't.

Sully

space2ground1 wrote: »

Was leaving Waterford fall part of the troica plan? It would seem to me that the recovery FG/Lab speak of seems to be happening in places closer to their hearts than Waterford. I don't buy that FG/Lab had nothing to do with Waterford's destruction. I've been in all 4 other cities quite a bit over the past year and there's no comparison. I keep hearing from the FG fans that B&L is a corporate decision for example. Luckily for Cork, Limerick, Dublin and Galway, Waterford hasn't an ar$3 in its govt investment pants to provide the backup for when such companies restructure or leave. There's 3 or 4 things that could have been easily done to help Waterford with modest investment. However each investment would take from the national cake. They haven't happened. They could have. They didn't.

In all fairness, this administration isn't the cause of Waterford's problems. Waterford has been struggling for years, well before FG/Lab got into trouble and even during the boom we weren't exactly winning. I have no problem admitting there has been some issues with this administration directly impacting Waterford, but to lay the blame squarely at this government is daft. I haven't met anybody who has came up with a proposal for Waterford, without resorting to University (an issue that's with this administration, despite more progress ever being made on the issue. It's a Labour portfolio).

We all know that the government can do sweet F all about B&L. It doesn't matter who is in government, nothing can be done. Funding is being given to the plant, but not until it's safe.