Waterford Politics MEGATHREAD

hardybuck

robtri wrote: »

I am not a Sinn Fein supporter but fcuk me this makes so much sense...

Tomorrow the Sinn Fein members will be telling Waterford City and County Council not to supply robes for the six new members. We are also asking the Council not to buy a new chain for the Mayor at a cost of 20,000 plus. To buy the new robes will cost in excess of 32,000. Their are already six spare chains in drawers in the Council. In the city which has the highest rate of unemployment in Ireland and with B%L workers fighting for their homes and jobs the blue bloods in FG want to preen themselves with your money.FF FG and Lab want the new Council workers to work for1 euro an hour on job bridge but want to spend 52,000 plus on a new council on fancy dress.

Why didn't they 'tell' them to do this before if they felt so strongly about it?

Did David Cullinane wear a robe?

AdMMM

hardybuck wrote: »

Why didn't they 'tell' them to do this before if they felt so strongly about it?

Did David Cullinane wear a robe?

Nope, don't think he did to be fair.

But it was never because of money... it was always a policy to reject these kind of customs that were inherited from the time England ruled us.

It's just political point scoring by blaming it on money!

Hijpo

AdMMM wrote: »

Nope, don't think he did to be fair.

But it was never because of money... it was always a policy to reject these kind of customs that were inherited from the time England ruled us.

It's just political point scoring by blaming it on money!

I think it says alot abput sinn fein acknowleging that this kind of waste in the current climate cannot be justified wether cullinane wore them previous or wether sinn fein want to do away with english tradition.
Fair play to them for taking it upon themselves to actively change things along with the pact and how the mayor is elected.

dark crystal

AdMMM wrote: »

Nope, don't think he did to be fair.

But it was never because of money... it was always a policy to reject these kind of customs that were inherited from the time England ruled us.

It's just political point scoring by blaming it on money!

Who cares? It it saves €52,000+, let them point score away!

AdMMM

dark crystal wrote: »

Who cares? It it saves €52,000+, let them point score away!

For the record, I completely agree with doing away with robes both for saving money, and I agree with Sinn Fein in that it's a form of Imperialism that has no place here.

What I don't agree with is that SF have overstated how much this would all cost (both locally and nationally) and leaving it open to interpretation that all councillors are getting brand new custom made robes, when the reality is that robes and being passed down.

hardybuck

It'll go nicely with the €4,350,000 that they're hoping to save annually, which people rightly or wrongly went mad at Phil Hogan for.

deeks

I'd love to see the basis for those figures. If the council is genuinely spending €5,333 each on 6 new robes than I agree it is an absolute scandal. I, however, suspect that its merely more populist nonsense from Sinn Fein.

Hijpo

deeks wrote: »

I'd love to see the basis for those figures. If the council is genuinely spending €5,333 each on 6 new robes than I agree it is an absolute scandal. I, however, suspect that its merely more populist nonsense from Sinn Fein.

Any saving a stupid robes and trinkets is a very welcome saving.
Maybe its just me but i think its Sinn Fein making the changes that has some peoples backs up.

AdMMM

Hijpo wrote: »

Any saving a stupid robes and trinkets is a very welcome saving.
Maybe its just me but i think its Sinn Fein making the changes that has some peoples backs up.

Of course some people will always refuse to admit something is a good idea because of party allegiances. For example, loyal Sinn Fein supporters will never support a FG idea in the same way FG supporters will find a way to downplay a Sinn Fein idea.

What isn't helping Sinn Fein in this case is that they've clearly plucked a figure from the sky in estimating how much this would benefit the taxpayer which then gives their critics some ammunition and makes it appear like a political stunt!

hardybuck

Hijpo wrote: »

Any saving a stupid robes and trinkets is a very welcome saving.
Maybe its just me but i think its Sinn Fein making the changes that has some peoples backs up.

Yes, but are Sinn Fein making any changes!? What is it 6 out of 32 seats they have?

With respect, they won't be telling anyone anything, or making any changes. They might suggest something which the group are in agreement with.

Hijpo

AdMMM wrote: »

Of course some people will always refuse to admit something is a good idea because of party allegiances. For example, loyal Sinn Fein supporters will never support a FG idea in the same way FG supporters will find a way to downplay a Sinn Fein idea.

What isn't helping Sinn Fein in this case is that they've clearly plucked a figure from the sky in estimating how much this would benefit the taxpayer which then gives their critics some ammunition and makes it appear like a political stunt!

I agree party allegiance plays a part, but how can people refute those figures without actually saying "this is actually what they are [link]".
I see the problem that Sinn Fein also have not come out and provided evidence to back up the figures they published but im sure its more than 50, 500 or 5000 euro.

hardybuck wrote: »

Yes, but are Sinn Fein making any changes!? What is it 6 out of 32 seats they have?

With respect, they won't be telling anyone anything, or making any changes. They might suggest something which the group are in agreement with.

Ill rephrase "making changes" to "highlighting ridiculous, unethical, illogical wastes of money".

Psychedelic

FF/FG/Lab have joined together in a pact to elect James Tobin (FF) as Chairman of Waterford City and County Council, with Jason Murphy (also FF) as Vice Chairman. How depressing that is to have two FF people leading the new council, to be followed by FF/Lab in the following years.

Chairman is still the same thing as the mayor, I think, or has that changed with the amalgamation?

The pact has the absolute bare majority (17 out of 32) to give them a majority on the council - assume this means they'll all vote to support each other's motions etc so looks like nothing will change now even though we elected so much new blood in the Independent and SF councillors.

A new council but with the same old FF/FG/Lab leading - how will this change Government treatment of Waterford?

hardybuck

Hijpo wrote: »

Ill rephrase "making changes" to "highlighting ridiculous, unethical, illogical wastes of money".

Your words, not mine. While I wouldn't defend that kind of spending, I'd also like to see some actual detailed confirmation of those figures.

Sully

I think as part of government reform, the expenses for cllrs and mayors was slashed. There's a saving there already.

Me personally, i'd feel uncomfortable wearing a robe or chain regardless of the cost but in fairness, at least for the mayoral role (which is different to chair), it's probably an important symbol to keep up. Sinn Fein have always been againt this but sure it's a good time to pretend it's about cost and win points.

Amusing though that Sinn Fein don't want to ensure they have control over the budget but want a pact to get the Mayoral position. Talk about claiming the perks and dodging tough decisions.

robtri

AdMMM wrote: »

Of course some people will always refuse to admit something is a good idea because of party allegiances. For example, loyal Sinn Fein supporters will never support a FG idea in the same way FG supporters will find a way to downplay a Sinn Fein idea.

What isn't helping Sinn Fein in this case is that they've clearly plucked a figure from the sky in estimating how much this would benefit the taxpayer which then gives their critics some ammunition and makes it appear like a political stunt!

I wouldnt be too sure about plucking figures from the sky, if that was the case i am sure FF FG or Lab councillors would be put spouting about the real costs and how SF are talking out their arses.
I havent seen one discount their numbers

robtri

Sully wrote: »

I think as part of government reform, the expenses for cllrs and mayors was slashed. There's a saving there already.

Me personally, i'd feel uncomfortable wearing a robe or chain regardless of the cost but in fairness, at least for the mayoral role (which is different to chair), it's probably an important symbol to keep up. Sinn Fein have always been againt this but sure it's a good time to pretend it's about cost and win points.

Amusing though that Sinn Fein don't want to ensure they have control over the budget but want a pact to get the Mayoral position. Talk about claiming the perks and dodging tough decisions.

No more amusing than FG sucking up too FF and psuhing the FF candiates into chairman. consider FG say FF are responsible for evrything that is wrong with country typical pass the buck politics as well.

Sully

robtri wrote: »

I wouldnt be too sure about plucking figures from the sky, if that was the case i am sure FF FG or Lab councillors would be put spouting about the real costs and how SF are talking out their arses.
I havent seen one discount their numbers

They have.

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

They have.

And they are?

Sully

O Riain wrote: »

And they are?

On the Facebook page of Cllr John Cummins;

Glad to put all these lies about the purchase of new robes which has been spoken of in several quarters over the last few days to bed at the first meeting of the council today! Talk of 30,000 or 40,000 euro being spent by the new council was never suggested, but it suits some peoples agendas to suggest otherwise. There are 18 members on the new City Metropolitan District, with 15 on the previous city council. SF's 4 members will not wear robes which is their right & one I fully respect, which means there there is actually 1 spare robe, where did all this talk of €30/40,000 come from?? Clarity from the City & County Manager today, nailing all the lies!

Can't link as i'm on mobile

Sully

Sully wrote: »

On the Facebook page of Cllr John Cummins;

[QUOTEGlad to put all these lies about the purchase of new robes which has been spoken of in several quarters over the last few days to bed at the first meeting of the council today! Talk of 30,000 or 40,000 euro being spent by the new council was never suggested, but it suits some peoples agendas to suggest otherwise. There are 18 members on the new City Metropolitan District, with 15 on the previous city council. SF's 4 members will not wear robes which is their right & one I fully respect, which means there there is actually 1 spare robe, where did all this talk of €30/40,000 come from?? Clarity from the City & County Manager today, nailing all the lies!

Can't link as i'm on mobile[/quote]

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

On the Facebook page of Cllr John Cummins;



Can't link as i'm on mobile

Ok Sinn Fein are saying that new ones are being purchased and Fine Gael are saying they are not. I'm not sure who to believe...

Why do you instantly reject one accusation and instantly accept another explanation? I'd like to know more on this to be honest.

Sully

O Riain wrote: »

Ok Sinn Fein are saying that new ones are being purchased and Fine Gael are saying they are not. I'm not sure who to believe...

Why do you instantly reject one accusation and instantly accept another explanation? I'd like to know more on this to be honest.

It's the City and County Manager who issued clarifications. Not about FG/SF.

SF already proved their pudding when they went back on the 'No Pact' pre election commitment then came running to Fianna Fail for a Mayoral pact but not wanting the budget decisions. So forgive me if I find it a bit rich for someone to slag of FG for getting a full pact with FF including budget when SF tried cosying up to FF too. At least the new majority want to actually get down to work. SF were voted in on the wave of reform and there not interested.

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

It's the City and County Manager who issued clarifications. Not about FG/SF.

SF already proved their pudding when they went back on the 'No Pact' pre election commitment then came running to Fianna Fail for a Mayoral pact but not wanting the budget decisions. So forgive me if I find it a bit rich for someone to slag of FG for getting a full pact with FF including budget when SF tried cosying up to FF too. At least the new majority want to actually get down to work. SF were voted in on the wave of reform and there not interested.

Where did you hear that about Sinn Fein? That's not very good behaviour now if that's what they did try..

I find it hard to believe that councillors would not want to be involved in any budget decisions Sully, surely that is a major part of the job!

mooseknunkle

Sully wrote: »

SF were voted in on the wave of reform and there not interested.

Didn't the council just meet for the first time yesterday? give them a few months at least before you write them off ...im not a sf supporter but give it a chance.

Sully

O Riain wrote: »

Where did you hear that about Sinn Fein? That's not very good behaviour now if that's what they did try..

I find it hard to believe that councillors would not want to be involved in any budget decisions Sully, surely that is a major part of the job!

David Cullinane said that Sinn Fein only wanted a mayoral pact and they approached FF as early as the count. This was on DeiseAM shortly after the elections and he was pressed on it by Billy about it and Senator Maurice Cummins but he sidetracked the question. All about perks and money - funny the spin about robes when Mayors get paid more and it's a title they feel they deserve.

So Independents, FF and FG formed a pact to ensure budgets went through. Sinn Fein didn't form their own pact with Independents to get their budget ideas through. Now they get to do what they always do - sit on the sidelines and rubbish the budgets. Then go on Facebook and slam the groupings, the budgets and so on. Already started. That's exactly why there popular. They have yet to actually make any tough decisions that others have and do.

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

David Cullinane said that Sinn Fein only wanted a mayoral pact and they approached FF as early as the count. This was on DeiseAM shortly after the elections and he was pressed on it by Billy about it and Senator Maurice Cummins but he sidetracked the question. All about perks and money - funny the spin about robes when Mayors get paid more and it's a title they feel they deserve.

So Independents, FF and FG formed a pact to ensure budgets went through. Sinn Fein didn't form their own pact with Independents to get their budget ideas through. Now they get to do what they always do - sit on the sidelines and rubbish the budgets. Then go on Facebook and slam the groupings, the budgets and so on. Already started. That's exactly why there popular. They have yet to actually make any tough decisions that others have and do.

Yeh, while every other politician is out there fighting tooth and nail, making tough decisions for the common mans benefit!

7upfree

GaelMise wrote: »

You said that by keeping both centers open, it would doubble costs. That is obviously nonsense.
Over the area that the new council covers, there have always been two local administrations, by keeping both centers open, at worst all that would happen is that cost would remain the same, but the reality is that there will be savings because there will not be a full service provided in both centers. Not to mention that there will be a relitively large number of job losses as a result of the amalgamation.

The outline of all of this is available on the new councils website:
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/LocalGovernment/Administration/FileDownLoad,34064,en.pdf

Whatever you think of the new council, or what they are doing, the idea that costs will be doubbled by comparrision to what went before is obviously nonsense.

Hang on - why are two centres being kept open in the first instance? Where are the alleged "cost savings" then?

Absolute and utter stupidity of the highest order.

7upfree

hardybuck wrote: »

I provided a very similar to one of your comments a few weeks back.

There is a reduction in the number of councillers from 38 to 32. Along with that, the town councils in Lismore, Tramore and Dungarvan will be abolished.

While the meetings will rotate between Waterford and Dungarvan, there will be 67 job losses overall. A combination of those job losses and the reduction of elected representatives is hoped to save €4.35 million per year.

As an interesting aside, the Cork Chamber of Commerce has called for a merging of the Cork City and County Councils. They point out that the efficiencies gained in Waterford and Limerick have resulted in a reduction in commercial rates.

Well good for them. If this is the case why weren't they already merged? "The reduction of elected representatives"? How about the increased travelling costs? Both ways?

Don't start about that "reduction in commercial rates" BS. That is a fallacy. They had already humped some rates up by 100%.

7upfree

Sully wrote: »

It's the City and County Manager who issued clarifications. Not about FG/SF.

SF already proved their pudding when they went back on the 'No Pact' pre election commitment then came running to Fianna Fail for a Mayoral pact but not wanting the budget decisions. So forgive me if I find it a bit rich for someone to slag of FG for getting a full pact with FF including budget when SF tried cosying up to FF too. At least the new majority want to actually get down to work. SF were voted in on the wave of reform and there not interested.

Some things never change really.

Gael23

Theres a Phil Prendergast Poster still up just past WRH